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Old
05-28-2012, 10:39 AM
  #351
hockeywoot
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Something centered around Edler for Staal?

Edler+ Roster Player (Offence) for Staal+ Roster Player (Defence)
+picks to balance out the value.

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Old
05-28-2012, 10:47 AM
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Did I now? Dude, are you this desperate to make a point? Ok, well let's go directly to my post...



Seriously, set your misplaced ego aside and try accuracy, ok? I wrote nothing inaccurate about Jeffrey, you're just upset I don't see the same potential as you do.

My question again. Did Staal, even with an increased offensive role, match-up against other team's top opposing lines? It's a simple yes or no answer. We both know the answer, which is why you are reluctant to reply.
Quote:
Even in WSB as recently as this past year, he played the same role.
So would this past year be 2010? It is WBS, also, just to enlighten you a liitle more.

Again, are you done embarrassing yourself yet?

And no, for the fifth time I told you checking line responsibilities went to other players. Staal was placed in a scoring role, DB doesn't check top lines with his scoring lines. Those resp go to third and fourth liners. How many times do I have to repeat that to you?

If you are done making things up, I'd like an answer to my question now.

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Old
05-28-2012, 10:52 AM
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeywoot View Post
Something centered around Edler for Staal?

Edler+ Roster Player (Offence) for Staal+ Roster Player (Defence)
+picks to balance out the value.
Not sure who your roster player would be... Pens could add in one of Engelland or Strait.

Most Pen's fans would love this. However we also can't see Vancouver doing this. Edler is your top PMD. Also not sure what's the incentive for Van to acquire another center. And unless someone is moved to the wing, why he'd stick around there...

The only reason he doesn't sign in Pittsburgh is if Bylsma/Shero can't promise him top 6 minutes (and quality PP, etc). Or if he's asking for too much (although I see this as less of an issue).

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Old
05-28-2012, 10:55 AM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeywoot View Post
Something centered around Edler for Staal?

Edler+ Roster Player (Offence) for Staal+ Roster Player (Defence)
+picks to balance out the value.
Staal + Strait/Bortuzzo/Niskanen for Edler + Pahlsson ?

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Old
05-28-2012, 11:04 AM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Look, you refused to even attempt a comparison between the two because you clearly don't know Bolland's game.
Here:

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
All you did was list their respective strengths, which proves nothing in terms of their relative value.
Understand?

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You kept citing "hard evidence" but provided none. I gave you both an analysis, which showed you don't have a handle on even base concepts, and then actually pointed to relevant hard evidence.
Statistics are the only hard evidence, Copernicus. Your "analysis" consisted of a simple listing of what each does well, which, again, proves nothing in terms of their relative value. Your "relevant hard evidence" ignored each's most recent production, which is the most relevant production there is.

Case in point: ignoring the Gagner/Pacioretty analogy, because you have no rebuttal for it.

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It shows their production - your key reference point - is very similar over their careers. Yes, Staal had the better year this past year, nobody questions it. But, as you often point out, he had a more offensive role so no real surprise. And will he sustain it or backslide a la Dubinsky?
Will Giroux backslide? Will Kessel? Will Pacioretty? Would GMs pooh-pooh their breakouts when assessing value as hilariously as you have with Staal?

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But even with Staal's breakout year in the regular season and playoffs, there is still little difference in career regular season production. But a huge one, as I have maintained, in the postseason.
Except, again, last year.

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Your spin is both all to predicable and all too amusing.
What's funny is watching the obvious tip-toeing around important points post after post.

The most blatant one is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The whole point here, in case you missed it, was that Hawks fans are trying to package Bolland in a deal for Staal because they want a 2nd line center. If the gap between the two weren't significant, there would be no need for such a trade.
You're so dead set on devaluing Staal by suggesting he's a minor step-up from Bolland that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge the truth that most believe the difference between the two is the difference between a good 2C with upside and a good 3C with little scoring line upside - because if people didn't believe that, none of these proposals would exist.

That's why Hawks fans want him instead of Bolland, and why Canes fans want him instead of Sutter. He is a scoring line center, and the other two aren't.

If a team is going to include a guy like Bolland or Sutter in a package for Staal, they can't be the main piece, because all they represent is a definitive downgrade for the Pens. A blue-chip, virtual sure thing in a position of need would have to be added, and neither Saad nor the 8th cut it.


Last edited by Warm Cookies: 05-28-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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Old
05-28-2012, 11:09 AM
  #356
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Let's please keep this about Staal and not about personal attacks. Only thread warning. If you make a personal attack you will be removed from the board in general.

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Old
05-28-2012, 11:55 AM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Will Giroux backslide? Will Kessel? Will Pacioretty? Would GMs pooh-pooh their breakouts when assessing value as hilariously as you have with Staal?
The difference between those players and Staal, is unless someone plays wing this season, Staal will have slid back into the 3C position behind Crosby and Malkin. He won't get the prime icetime that he was getting the last 2 years with his top 6 duties he had due to others being hurt.

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Old
05-28-2012, 12:09 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
The difference between those players and Staal, is unless someone plays wing this season, Staal will have slid back into the 3C position behind Crosby and Malkin. He won't get the prime icetime that he was getting the last 2 years with his top 6 duties he had due to others being hurt.
The amount of Staal's icetime won't diminish - he always got a ton of TOI, even before '10-'11. He likely won't be playing with Sullivan and Dupuis, but he wasn't when he led the Pens in scoring these playoffs either.

The production jump he made last year was more about refining his playmaking and improving his shot than any linemates he had.

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Old
05-28-2012, 12:12 PM
  #359
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From Buff: Stall for Roy + (insert desirable defensive players since we have 8-9 nhl ready defensemen)

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Old
05-28-2012, 12:56 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Not sure who your roster player would be... Pens could add in one of Engelland or Strait.

Most Pen's fans would love this. However we also can't see Vancouver doing this. Edler is your top PMD. Also not sure what's the incentive for Van to acquire another center. And unless someone is moved to the wing, why he'd stick around there...

The only reason he doesn't sign in Pittsburgh is if Bylsma/Shero can't promise him top 6 minutes (and quality PP, etc). Or if he's asking for too much (although I see this as less of an issue).
Tangradi. He's not being treated properly in Pittsburgh. Not sure what is going on in the locker room over there, but the kid has some serious upside and isn't being given a fair shake. Van would like his potential and size.

The reason Van would trade him for Staal is to replace Kesler at 2c, who would then be shipped out for a hefty return for a quality piece. I've advocated a while ago trading Edler+Raymond for Staal+Tangradi, then trading Kesler for Ryan.

Canucks get younger and bigger (and imo much better).

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Old
05-28-2012, 01:05 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The amount of Staal's icetime won't diminish - he always got a ton of TOI, even before '10-'11. He likely won't be playing with Sullivan and Dupuis, but he wasn't when he led the Pens in scoring these playoffs either.

The production jump he made last year was more about refining his playmaking and improving his shot than any linemates he had.
It's not the TOI. It's the quality of it. He'll get much less offensive zone faceoffs (as those will go to Crosby/Malkin) and many more defensive zone faceoffs. If they break up Crosby/Malkin on the PP (as they did a few times in the Flyers series), then that might actually help Staal with his PP time.

The production last year wasn't all about his refined skills, but that he was put into situations where he could be more offensive. It's not just TOI (although that's a large part of it), but how they use him while he's on the ice. If he's put out there to check top lines, chance are his opportunity to create a scoring chance is diminished (vs being put out against a lesser line).

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Old
05-28-2012, 01:45 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
The only thing I've heard attractive enough for your crowd is Bobby Ryan.. and I don't see any Anaheim fans running in to give you Bobby Ryan for Jordan Staal.
And what young top line centers are people rushing to give Chicago for Bolland+? Sam Gagner?

How did we even come back here? It's like Dave effing Bolland groundhog day. What with the "he is cheaper and opens up money to address other positions argument" in Bolland's case anyway? Maybe seeing it for Sutter, but Bolland? Yopu gotta hope Shero is not going to spend the whole whopping 600k in just one place. Parise will jump at that.

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05-28-2012, 02:08 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Tangradi. He's not being treated properly in Pittsburgh. Not sure what is going on in the locker room over there, but the kid has some serious upside and isn't being given a fair shake. Van would like his potential and size.

The reason Van would trade him for Staal is to replace Kesler at 2c, who would then be shipped out for a hefty return for a quality piece. I've advocated a while ago trading Edler+Raymond for Staal+Tangradi, then trading Kesler for Ryan.

Canucks get younger and bigger (and imo much better).
Why wouldn't we just trade Staal for Ryan then?

He was much better than Kesler last year, and 4 years younger. Let's not go down the "1 year remaining" path, because it's obvious any team that dealt for Staal would do so with an understanding beforehand that he'd sign.

I guess Kesler could end up being a mil or so cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
It's not the TOI. It's the quality of it. He'll get much less offensive zone faceoffs (as those will go to Crosby/Malkin) and many more defensive zone faceoffs. If they break up Crosby/Malkin on the PP (as they did a few times in the Flyers series), then that might actually help Staal with his PP time.

The production last year wasn't all about his refined skills, but that he was put into situations where he could be more offensive. It's not just TOI (although that's a large part of it), but how they use him while he's on the ice. If he's put out there to check top lines, chance are his opportunity to create a scoring chance is diminished (vs being put out against a lesser line).
Didn't seem to be Bylsma's m.o. these playoffs, and Staal produced just fine with all 3 centers in the line-up. Small sample size, but I guess I put more stock in Staal's improvements the past couple years than you do.

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Old
05-28-2012, 02:12 PM
  #364
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Jesse Rogers Proposes Trade

To The pens
Brandon Saad
D. Bolland
1st

To the Hawks
J.Staal

This was in his blog.

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Old
05-28-2012, 02:13 PM
  #365
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No thanks. Bolland and a 1st at most.

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05-28-2012, 02:14 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
No thanks. Bolland and a 1st at most.
What if it was Sadd, Bolland and Conditional 1st?
Condition being if the hawks resign him, or if they win the cup.

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05-28-2012, 02:16 PM
  #367
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What if it was Sadd, Bolland and Conditional 1st?
Condition being if the hawks resign him, or if they win the cup.
That would be more enticing, and I would definitely think about it.

But for just Staal with no contract, not worth the risk of him leaving.

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Old
05-28-2012, 02:16 PM
  #368
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Oh boy...there was a long thread on hockeybuzz about this one.

He actually says Bolland, Saad and a 1st round pick or two. And then goes on to say that if the Pens insist on Nick Leddy, the Hawks should give him up too.

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/blac...ealing-bolland

So now we know Jesse Rogers is worse than most of the posters here with lopsided trade ideas

I can see all this happening, and then a year later Jordan signs with his brother in New York or Carolina.

Yeah the Hawks pass.

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Old
05-28-2012, 02:27 PM
  #369
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Staal thread for this stuff. And no from Pittsburgh.

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Old
05-28-2012, 02:29 PM
  #370
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Let's say that both of them re-sign. Then is it a deal?

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05-28-2012, 02:31 PM
  #371
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Proven 49 pt guy in a 3C role. He's played at a different level offensively the last couple years being counted on to produce with injuries to our best players. He leads our team in goals and points this past postseason against philly playing with the same linemates in 08-10 and matching up against Giroux. But yet there's no possible way he can improve to 60 Pts with a healthy Pens team in a full season. And he cant put up another 5 at ES and 5 on the PP in another situation on another team given the opportunity with legit top six linemates and more quality PP time.

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05-28-2012, 02:45 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Why wouldn't we just trade Staal for Ryan then?
Because Edler fills out an organizational need for the Penguins. A 1-2 punch of Crosby/Malkin down the center, and Letang/Edler on the back end is just dirty.

Edler would be of much greater use to Pitt than Ryan would. 45 point, bit hitting, defensively responsible, 100mp/h slapper, PP qb (for your second unit), and he is still very young.

Pitt would want Edler. Plus, Van would probably have to add to Kesler to pry Ryan away.

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05-28-2012, 02:48 PM
  #373
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what one defines as overpayment by the Hawks.

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Old
05-28-2012, 02:52 PM
  #374
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Proven 49 pt guy in a 3C role. He's played at a different level offensively the last couple years being counted on to produce with injuries to our best players. He leads our team in goals and points this past postseason against philly playing with the same linemates in 08-10 and matching up against Giroux. But yet there's no possible way he can improve to 60 Pts with a healthy Pens team in a full season. And he cant put up another 5 at ES and 5 on the PP in another situation on another team given the opportunity with legit top six linemates and more quality PP time.
huh?

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Old
05-28-2012, 02:57 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Because Edler fills out an organizational need for the Penguins. A 1-2 punch of Crosby/Malkin down the center, and Letang/Edler on the back end is just dirty.

Edler would be of much greater use to Pitt than Ryan would. 45 point, bit hitting, defensively responsible, 100mp/h slapper, PP qb (for your second unit), and he is still very young.

Pitt would want Edler. Plus, Van would probably have to add to Kesler to pry Ryan away.
Edler would be good here, but the benefits Ryan would bring as a big skilled winger who can create for himself and be a RH threat on the left side of the PP fills a bigger need. Losing Martin is addition by subtraction and Despres showed last year that he's more than capable of stepping in and playing well as a big two-way presence on the blueline.

EDIT: Just saw Edler's a UFA. We're not trading Staal for a UFA.

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