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Old
05-29-2012, 07:57 AM
  #501
pspot
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obviously the 5th would be a nice asset and Pitt could always flip it but is that something they would really want?

they can't really wait 2 or 3 years for a prospect to reach the level of player they need right now

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05-29-2012, 08:03 AM
  #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
This is directed just at you, but if most of the Pens fans have the attitude reflected on these boards, I can see why Jordan Staal loves playing there. I'm being totally serious.

He, unlike any player I can think of, is given so much support and every question about him it seems is answered with a barrage of counter-arguments.

I guess when you burst on the scene at such a young age and have a family name with cachet, it helps endear fans to him. Not being critical, just making a point of comparison. Skinner by contrast is getting ripped in Raleigh in just his second year for his shortcomings so it's just an interesting difference.
How is stating a fact giving him support?

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05-29-2012, 08:12 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
How is stating a fact giving him support?
^ This... and Staal has also been ripped to shreds at times by a lot of inpatient Pens fans.

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05-29-2012, 08:22 AM
  #504
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^ This... and Staal has also been ripped to shreds at times by a lot of inpatient Pens fans.
Exactly, he's taken his fair share of criticism though not so much this season.

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05-29-2012, 08:25 AM
  #505
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I really don't understand this ripping players you are obviously looking to trade for down thing. Sure, I like to talk smack about Bolland or Jokinen, but that is, wait for it, because I honestly do not want those guys anywhere near my team.
When I talk the possibility of Staal for Edler, what's the point of bringing up every ******* mistake Edler made in the last post-season? This is not a Morrocon market, Vancouver is not throwing in Schneider, because I convinced them I actually don't even want their perfectly good player.

If Toronto seeks to trade for Staal, it will be because Burke thinks Staal has the best potential to be a 1C out of all centers available to him this summer. If Toronto drafts their center and develops him the next 3 years, that's more than fine, but the whole "we don't think Staal could ever possibly be a 1C, but still want to trade for him, so you should give him to us dirt cheap", when everyone knows your effing roster, probably not likely to happen, no?

And the whole third line center for first line winger bit again, Chicago? Nice strawman. If Staal is a thrid line center, because that is where he plays in Pittsburgh, than Dupuis is a first line winger. Whose value is en par with Sharps now?

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05-29-2012, 08:25 AM
  #506
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Jesse Rogers offered
Bolland
Saad
1st

For Staal

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05-29-2012, 08:38 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by DontToewzMeBro View Post
Jesse Rogers offered
Bolland
Saad
1st

For Staal
The same guy who reported huet for Jeff finger?

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Old
05-29-2012, 08:43 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
How is stating a fact giving him support?
No, I wasn't addressing your point. You just seem very level-headed (compared to some) so I directed the question to you. I'm talking about the seeming endless support, projections, etc. It could just be in response to propping up trade possibilities but it's curious, that's all.

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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
And the whole third line center for first line winger bit again, Chicago? Nice strawman. If Staal is a thrid line center, because that is where he plays in Pittsburgh, than Dupuis is a first line winger. Whose value is en par with Sharps now?
Well, if you drop the labels, I still think you'd be hard pressed to make a case their values are equal.

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05-29-2012, 09:32 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Oh....my...

Pens fans, we shouldn't even post in this thread, it's the same argument with Staal, since he's a UFA to be, noone wants him, we should just close this thread.
I only posted that because apparently Bolland and a 1st isn't even close to value for a UFA....when it most certainly is. I would want Staal as a UFA, but i'm not going to sell the entire farm for someone who may leave at the end of the year. Bolland and a 1st is probably a better offer than most teams will give you...if you don't like that, then have fun watching him leave as a UFA and get nothing for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Sure, cap dumps would be much better than the 3C downgrade. Why do people think this works? Do you want to trade Kane for Pascal Dupuis + 1st?

Also it's fine to not want to trade for an upcoming UFA, it's wanting to trade for one with some random **** you found between the couch pillows that's has been getting stale for a couple weeks now.
You will be downgrading no matter what in the 3rd line C position, you are going to have to come to that conclusion when he leaves. Bolland is arguably the next best 3rd line C in the league. Not near as much of a downgrade.

Bolland and a 1st is hardly '**** you find between couch pillows', especially considering Bolland has almost equaled Staals production over the years, and is known to completely shut down opposing C's all season, and especially in the playoffs.

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05-29-2012, 09:34 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
You will be downgrading no matter what in the 3rd line C position, you are going to have to come to that conclusion when he leaves. Bolland is arguably the next best 3rd line C in the league. Not near as much of a downgrade.

Bolland and a 1st is hardly '**** you find between couch pillows', especially considering Bolland has almost equaled Staals production over the years, and is known to completely shut down opposing C's all season, and especially in the playoffs.
Of course we are downgrading the 3C, but you are going to allow me to hope, that would not all we'd be doing trading Staal. If we downgrade the 3C, while getting a RW upgrading the wing, that is different to only downgrading the 3C without improving anywhere else, which Bolland+1st would be.

Agree to disagree on Bolland. Just keep him.

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05-29-2012, 09:38 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by bobbyflex View Post
ok boys. i did some digging. Pens were without both Crosby and Malkin from the Jan. 20 game last year against the devils until the remainder of the season including playoffs, where, Pens lost in 7 against Tampa. During this time period, Staal WAS THEIR #1 CENTER

In the 34 regular season games, he recorded 8G and 16A for a total of 24 points. (works out to a 57 point pace over 82 games). His average TOI was 21:47 and was on the 1st unit for all powerplays

In the 7 playoff games, he recorded 1G and 2A for a total of 3 points. His average TOI was 21:28 and was on the 1st unit for all powerplays.

As I mentioned, Staal may develop into a #1 center as he is still young and developing. But, hasn't proven that he currently is one given the opportunity he had to step up last year. Don't let Pens fans tell you any different.

The question is, do we give up premium assets for a guy who is currently a #2 center and has potential to be a #1?
Yeah, I don't think Staal is what the Leafs are looking for.

Would rather draft.

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05-29-2012, 09:43 AM
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Of course we are downgrading the 3C, but you are going to allow me to hope, that would not all we'd be doing trading Staal. If we downgrade the 3C, while getting a RW upgrading the wing, that is different to only downgrading the 3C without improving anywhere else, which Bolland+1st would be.

Agree to disagree on Bolland. Just keep him.
OK, trade for another 3rd line C, have even a bigger downgrade on the 3C position, and still get crap for a RW along with that major downgrade.

No team is trading you a great 3rd line C, and a great RW for a UFA.

We will keep Bolland, have fun watching Staal leave as a UFA while getting nothing for him if that's what you are expecting.

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05-29-2012, 09:54 AM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
You will be downgrading no matter what in the 3rd line C position, you are going to have to come to that conclusion when he leaves. Bolland is arguably the next best 3rd line C in the league. Not near as much of a downgrade.

Bolland and a 1st is hardly '**** you find between couch pillows', especially considering Bolland has almost equaled Staals production over the years, and is known to completely shut down opposing C's all season, and especially in the playoffs.
All true but good luck getting anyone here to buy into it from a Pens' POV. I agree there isn't a significant difference between the two but I'm in the minority with you. Bolland doesn't get nearly enough credit here but it's the classic case of an over-valuation and under-valuation colliding.

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05-29-2012, 09:54 AM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
OK, trade for another 3rd line C, have even a bigger downgrade on the 3C position, and still get crap for a RW along with that major downgrade.

No team is trading you a great 3rd line C, and a great RW for a UFA.

We will keep Bolland, have fun watching Staal leave as a UFA while getting nothing for him if that's what you are expecting.
That's a scary threat right there, because as we all know Staal repeatedly said, that he will never never never sign with the Pens again and will be a total pouty brat to every team interested except for only Chicago.

And I do not want any 3C back in the trade at all. What's so unclear about that? I want a winger INSTEAD, not in addition. Unless Staal shows a marked preference for Carolina, in which case I'd rather Shero'd take Sutter+8th OA than be a dick about it.

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05-29-2012, 09:59 AM
  #515
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Originally Posted by bobbyflex View Post
ok boys. i did some digging. Pens were without both Crosby and Malkin from the Jan. 20 game last year against the devils until the remainder of the season including playoffs, where, Pens lost in 7 against Tampa. During this time period, Staal WAS THEIR #1 CENTER

In the 34 regular season games, he recorded 8G and 16A for a total of 24 points. (works out to a 57 point pace over 82 games). His average TOI was 21:47 and was on the 1st unit for all powerplays

In the 7 playoff games, he recorded 1G and 2A for a total of 3 points. His average TOI was 21:28 and was on the 1st unit for all powerplays.

As I mentioned, Staal may develop into a #1 center as he is still young and developing. But, hasn't proven that he currently is one given the opportunity he had to step up last year. Don't let Pens fans tell you any different.

The question is, do we give up premium assets for a guy who is currently a #2 center and has potential to be a #1?
This is nothing groundbreaking. I'll tell you something you didn't find though. His wingers during that time were Cooke and Kennedy. Do you know who his wingers are when he plays on the 3rd line? Cooke and Kennedy. We acquired Neal and Kovalev but they played with Letestu.

We didn't bump him up to the first line to play with sick wingers or anything. We essentially trotted our 3rd line out there more often and still matched them against other teams top line when needed.

If you don't think Staal would benefit from playing on a top line with a real winger like Kessel and Kessel would benefit as well, then idk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
OK, trade for another 3rd line C, have even a bigger downgrade on the 3C position, and still get crap for a RW along with that major downgrade.

No team is trading you a great 3rd line C, and a great RW for a UFA.

We will keep Bolland, have fun watching Staal leave as a UFA while getting nothing for him if that's what you are expecting.
oh and this post is hilarious.

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05-29-2012, 10:06 AM
  #516
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
OK, trade for another 3rd line C, have even a bigger downgrade on the 3C position, and still get crap for a RW along with that major downgrade.

No team is trading you a great 3rd line C, and a great RW for a UFA.

We will keep Bolland, have fun watching Staal leave as a UFA while getting nothing for him if that's what you are expecting.
First of all, that rumor about Bolland, Saad and a 1st didn't come from Pens fans, it came from a Chicago insider, so don't get mad at us when your insiders are writing it and saying it's on the table for Staal.

Second of all, it is really tiresome to keep telling you guys over and over, but if Staal is traded, obviously a team won't trade a premium for him if he won't re-sign. He will have to agree to sign an extension with the team he's traded to. So everyone can forget the "1 year of Staal" argument because the only way he's traded is if he re-signs with the team he's traded to.

Also, we won't let Staal walk, you can sit there and think that they will, but with Staal's situation, it's not a matter of wanting out of Pittsburgh or wanting a lot of money, it's his role. We can find a team that he would want to go to, he will sign an extension with that team and Shero will want a premium for him and there are GMs out there who will pay that premium.

Don't worry, you can be childish like others in this thread saying "fine you don't want our offer, then he can walk and Pittsburgh will get nothing". Nope, don't think so. If Staal is on the trade block, Shero's phone would blow up with calls, no doubt about it.

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05-29-2012, 10:16 AM
  #517
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
All true but good luck getting anyone here to buy into it from a Pens' POV. I agree there isn't a significant difference between the two but I'm in the minority with you. Bolland doesn't get nearly enough credit here but it's the classic case of an over-valuation and under-valuation colliding.
If they are basically the same player except for only insignificant things, then why would anyone even want to trade Bolland for Staal?

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05-29-2012, 10:20 AM
  #518
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
If they are basically the same player except for only insignificant things, then why would anyone even want to trade Bolland for Staal?
and chicago would obviously be viewed as pretty strong down the middle. If Bolland was almost as good as Staal, he would be good on the 2nd line, because Staal will make a great second line center, which means Bolland would make a good one.

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05-29-2012, 10:40 AM
  #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
If they are basically the same player except for only insignificant things, then why would anyone even want to trade Bolland for Staal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
and chicago would obviously be viewed as pretty strong down the middle. If Bolland was almost as good as Staal, he would be good on the 2nd line, because Staal will make a great second line center, which means Bolland would make a good one.
This on both posts!! If Bolland is such a great 3C than why trade him for 'another' 3C?
The obvious answer is Staal is not a 3C (and Bolland is) and you are too anxious to trade Bolland.

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05-29-2012, 10:46 AM
  #520
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
If they are basically the same player except for only insignificant things, then why would anyone even want to trade Bolland for Staal?
Got to love the way people try to wordsmith here. I didn't post that they "are basically the same player" but rather there "isn't a significant difference." I've posted several times that Staal is the better player but I do agree and have stated that that trade doesn't make sense with Chicago. It's too much for Chicago to pay when their issues are greater elsewhere. Also, Chicago can move Sharp back to 2C where he played when they won the Cup.

From a Pens's POV, it doesn't improve the team immediately but would down the road with Saad and the draft pick.

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05-29-2012, 10:51 AM
  #521
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I guess, but I tend to think the no.2 center spot. Is harder to find the hawks are overrun with potential top 6 wingers in Stalberg, Morin, hayes, saad, beach and possibly McNeil. Getting staal fills the need hawks need to have a 2c center who keeps Bolland In a shut down role but if q goes into his shuffley ways it allows him to mix and match.
McNeill is far from ready and is a center. I only trust Saad from that list in the top-six.

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05-29-2012, 10:53 AM
  #522
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I know Pittsburgh fans are obsessed with Sharp, but how about Bolland, Stalberg, Bickell, Morin, a 2012 1st, and a 2013 2nd for Staal and Tangradi?

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05-29-2012, 10:56 AM
  #523
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Got to love the way people try to wordsmith here. I didn't post that they "are basically the same player" but rather there "isn't a significant difference." I've posted several times that Staal is the better player but I do agree and have stated that that trade doesn't make sense with Chicago. It's too much for Chicago to pay when their issues are greater elsewhere. Also, Chicago can move Sharp back to 2C where he played when they won the Cup.

From a Pens's POV, it doesn't improve the team immediately but would down the road with Saad and the draft pick.
I even quoted and bolded the part you did say, so it's really not like I was trying to put words in your mouth. The "the same player" was just my wording and I did not try to imply otherwise. You however did say, that there was no significant difference between them. So what I was essentially asking was, would there not have to be a significant difference for a trade to make sense?

If someone being the better player is an insignificant difference to you, than it's just a definition of significant I was not previously familiar with. That's fine.

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05-29-2012, 10:58 AM
  #524
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Uh, what? I'm talking about what he did this past season after his breakout season. His stats fell off considerably. You act as if a breakout means nothing but progress and it doesn't always work that way. Eric Staal, for example, has never matched his breakout year.
No, I don't. See, this is what I wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Some players regress, some don't. Nothing revelatory here.
The point is that the player's value (especially a young player's value) is still going to be raised after a career year, regardless of their being no absolute guarantees that it will continue. This likewise applies to the likes of Kessel, Giroux, Pacioretty, etc.

Staal has produced at a 64 point pace over the last 2 years, which is about as good a track record as anyone's going to get for a potentially available 23 year old two-way center with extensive playoff experience.

Quote:
It's relevant also because Staal did it with an expanded role offensively while Bolland did not have that luxury.
Again:

Quote:
Staal did it (at 23) and Bolland hasn't (at 25), which is why one is coveted as a scoring line center and the other isn't
Younger player did it last year >>>> older player might under the same circumstances be able to do it one year. That simple.


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05-29-2012, 10:59 AM
  #525
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I know Pittsburgh fans are obsessed with Sharp, but how about Bolland, Stalberg, Bickell, Morin, a 2012 1st, and a 2013 2nd for Staal and Tangradi?
Now there isn't even Saad in there anymore. That's much worse than where we started.If it's gotta be pieces, try fewer and better ones.

Still do not want Bolland in return.

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