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Old
05-29-2012, 11:01 AM
  #526
StormCast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
I even quoted and bolded the part you did say, so it's really not like I was trying to put words in your mouth. The "the same player" was just my wording and I did not try to imply otherwise. You however did say, that there was no significant difference between them. So what I was essentially asking was, would there not have to be a significant difference for a trade to make sense?

If someone being the better player is an insignificant difference to you, than it's just a definition of significant I was not previously familiar with. That's fine.
I answered the question. No, it doesn't make sense. Staal is the better player, as stated, just not a huge difference between the two.

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05-29-2012, 11:04 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
I answered the question. No, it doesn't make sense. Staal is the better player, as stated, just not a huge difference between the two.
so why is Chicago looking for a 2nd line center when clearly they have one in house?

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05-29-2012, 11:06 AM
  #528
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I wouldn't mind Bolland in a return for Staal. That Chicago deal (Bolland, Saad, 2012 1st) is pretty good from a Pens POV but Hawks fans think it's terrible for them.

I could see why, they aren't desperate for a 2C.

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05-29-2012, 11:07 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
First of all, that rumor about Bolland, Saad and a 1st didn't come from Pens fans, it came from a Chicago insider, so don't get mad at us when your insiders are writing it and saying it's on the table for Staal..


Jesse is regarded as a 2nd rate hack here in Chicago

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05-29-2012, 11:07 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
I answered the question. No, it doesn't make sense. Staal is the better player, as stated, just not a huge difference between the two.
Then I mistook your agreeing with the Hawksfan who was arguing pro "Bolland + 1st for Staal" as you thinking this was a good deal. Nevermind, we apparently took a completely unneccessary detour here.

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05-29-2012, 11:08 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Cullksinikers View Post
I know Pittsburgh fans are obsessed with Sharp, but how about Bolland, Stalberg, Bickell, Morin, a 2012 1st, and a 2013 2nd for Staal and Tangradi?
Not appealing in the slightest. A downgrade at center, a mediocre scoring winger, and a collection of disposable assets.

We fancy ourselves a contender. The only way we'd deal Staal is if we got a blue-chip RH forward prospect who fit our needs that was virtually guaranteed to make an impact on an ELC (ie not Morin), or an established RH winger who makes a comparable impact to Staal (ie not Bolland). Quality, not quantity.

If not, then it's not worth sacrificing what Staal can bring for a season plus playoff run, at the very least.

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05-29-2012, 11:09 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
We'd have to add then.
Sharp is better player then Staal and is signed longterm

He isn't going anywhere and if he did it would not be for downgrade in Staal

Sharp is more proven as #2 C then Staal as well

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05-29-2012, 11:09 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by bobbyflex View Post
ok boys. i did some digging. Pens were without both Crosby and Malkin from the Jan. 20 game last year against the devils until the remainder of the season including playoffs, where, Pens lost in 7 against Tampa. During this time period, Staal WAS THEIR #1 CENTER

In the 34 regular season games, he recorded 8G and 16A for a total of 24 points. (works out to a 57 point pace over 82 games). His average TOI was 21:47 and was on the 1st unit for all powerplays

In the 7 playoff games, he recorded 1G and 2A for a total of 3 points. His average TOI was 21:28 and was on the 1st unit for all powerplays.

As I mentioned, Staal may develop into a #1 center as he is still young and developing. But, hasn't proven that he currently is one given the opportunity he had to step up last year. Don't let Pens fans tell you any different.

The question is, do we give up premium assets for a guy who is currently a #2 center and has potential to be a #1?
He was #1, but had absolutely crap for support. Neal/Kovy/Letetsu for the 2nd line, and had TK and Kunitz as his wingers. The other thing to consider is that the Pens switched to a very defensive style during the last half of the season and the playoffs. In fact if they didn't score first they usually lost, and it was as boring as **** to watch. I spent game 7 watching Boston play instead of the Pens.

Is he right now a #1C? No. Pen fans haven't said otherwise. However he is currently a very good #2C. He's also young (23) and his offensive game has gotten better over the last 2 years. I (and many Pen fans) think that he does have the potential to become a #1C. Heck if Bozak can put up 50 pts between Lupul and Kessel, and Staal can do so with crap PP time and TK and Cooke as his linemates, I would love to see what he could do with quality top 6 wingers.

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05-29-2012, 11:14 AM
  #534
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Just from reading over these past couple pages, let's put it this way:

In the same way that most Pittsburgh media sources (apparently) can't be trusted and are "hacks", "jokes", whatever, it appears that this Rogers journalist is the same way.

So, Pens fans, put as much faith in Rogers comments about the "Bolland + 1st deal being on the table" as you did regarding whichever Pittsburgh reporter stated that Staal wanted 7.5 mill

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05-29-2012, 11:15 AM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post


Jesse is regarded as a 2nd rate hack here in Chicago
I'll take your word for it, I was just saying that because Pens fans were getting heat for asking for that kind of deal for Staal when we didn't even propose that trade.

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05-29-2012, 11:15 AM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Sharp is better player then Staal and is signed longterm

He isn't going anywhere and if he did it would not be for downgrade in Staal

Sharp is more proven as #2 C then Staal as well
Why, then, does every proposal from Hawks fans have them trading for a 2nd line center? They have Sharp, who's apparently more proven as a 2nd line center than Staal, and Bolland, who is apparently only a minor drop-off from Staal.

Not trying to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious.

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05-29-2012, 11:16 AM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Staal has produced at a 64 point pace over the last 2 years, which is about as good a track record as anyone's going to get for a potentially available 23 year old two-way center with extensive playoff experience.

Again:

Younger player did it last year >>>> older player might under the same circumstances be able to do it one year. That simple.
But you cite "pace" for Staal which is what he "might" have done over the course of the season not what he did.

The fact is that Staal has played in over 400 NHL games while Bolland is just below 300. To act as if age is the only predictor of progression is a bit limiting. Bolland was a far more accomplished point producer than Staal in Juniors and could also put up more points if he was in a more offensive role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Then I mistook your agreeing with the Hawksfan who was arguing pro "Bolland + 1st for Staal" as you thinking this was a good deal. Nevermind, we apparently took a completely unneccessary detour here.
No worries. I don't think Chicago or Carolina are good trade partners, as a 2C isn't their greatest need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
so why is Chicago looking for a 2nd line center when clearly they have one in house?
Who definitely said they were? That's right, nobody. The need to upgrade in net and on D.

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05-29-2012, 11:18 AM
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Why, then, does every proposal from Hawks fans have them trading for a 2nd line center?

Not trying to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious.
Because for some reason (Either Sharp or Q) he no longer plays C

Hawks won cup with him as #2 C ,, He has shown to be a capable C and it is his natural position but for some reason this past year he was at wing and stayed there

Hawks instead put Kane at #2 C () for some odd reason

The desire for Hawk fans to get a #2 C is because we haven't had a reliable #2 C since Nylander

Sharp is closest to that but since he keeps going back to W it appears either he or Hawks want him on W not at C

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05-29-2012, 11:23 AM
  #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Because for some reason (Either Sharp or Q) he no longer plays C

Hawks won cup with him as #2 C ,, He has shown to be a capable C and it is his natural position but for some reason this past year he was at wing and stayed there

Hawks instead put Kane at #2 C () for some odd reason

The desire for Hawk fans to get a #2 C is because we haven't had a reliable #2 C since Nylander

Sharp is closest to that but since he keeps going back to W it appears either he or Hawks want him on W not at C
Oh, how I miss his baldness...

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05-29-2012, 11:26 AM
  #540
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
But you cite "pace" for Staal which is what he "might" have done over the course of the season not what he did.
Again, Staal has produced 92 points over his last 117 games in the last two years. That's not pace, those are hard facts. "Pace" is only used in the sense of comparing it to an 82 game schedule.

Quote:
The fact is that Staal has played in over 400 NHL games while Bolland is just below 300. To act as if age is the only predictor of progression is a bit limiting. Bolland was a far more accomplished point producer than Staal in Juniors and could also put up more points if he was in a more offensive role.
Rob Schremp was a junior sensation too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Because for some reason (Either Sharp or Q) he no longer plays C

Hawks won cup with him as #2 C ,, He has shown to be a capable C and it is his natural position but for some reason this past year he was at wing and stayed there

Hawks instead put Kane at #2 C () for some odd reason

The desire for Hawk fans to get a #2 C is because we haven't had a reliable #2 C since Nylander

Sharp is closest to that but since he keeps going back to W it appears either he or Hawks want him on W not at C
I guess Sharp's value to you as a C is moot, then.

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05-29-2012, 11:34 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by Cullksinikers View Post
I know Pittsburgh fans are obsessed with Sharp, but how about Bolland, Stalberg, Bickell, Morin, a 2012 1st, and a 2013 2nd for Staal and Tangradi?
Pens are looking for a quality package for Staal rather than a quantity one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
But you cite "pace" for Staal which is what he "might" have done over the course of the season not what he did.

The fact is that Staal has played in over 400 NHL games while Bolland is just below 300. To act as if age is the only predictor of progression is a bit limiting. Bolland was a far more accomplished point producer than Staal in Juniors and could also put up more points if he was in a more offensive role.



No worries. I don't think Chicago or Carolina are good trade partners, as a 2C isn't their greatest need.


Who definitely said they were? That's right, nobody. The need to upgrade in net and on D.
Do you know why Bolland was a more accomplished point producer in Junior than Staal? because he played four seasons compared to Staal's two. When Bolland was putting up 85 points in London, Staal was putting up 29 goals in the NHL. Bolland's London Knights were a stacked team to.

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05-29-2012, 11:43 AM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Again, Staal has produced 92 points over his last 117 games in the last two years. That's not pace, those are hard facts. "Pace" is only used in the sense of comparing it to an 82 game schedule.

Rob Schremp was a junior sensation too.
And the other cold, hard fact is that is mostly been with the benefit of an increased offensive role. As such, it's really not a good measure by which to measure against someone who hasn't been in the same situation.

Schremp? Come on. He never made it while Bolland did. The point is that even with this offensive surge from Staal over the last two years, his career PPG are only slightly higher than Bolland's. And Staal has more experience than Bolland. It's reasonable to expect, given what he's done in the NHL and his scoring prowess in Juniors that he could produce more points in a more offensive role. Hardly a stretch, unlike the facile analogy of Schremp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Do you know why Bolland was a more accomplished point producer in Junior than Staal? because he played four seasons compared to Staal's two. When Bolland was putting up 85 points in London, Staal was putting up 29 goals in the NHL. Bolland's London Knights were a stacked team to.
And in the 05-06 season, Bolland racked up 130 points in less than 60 games vs. Staal's 68 in 68.

Again, my point is that it's not a leap to expect Bolland to be a bigger point producer - given his track record in Juniors for piling up points - with a more offensive role in the NHL. Hardly a groundbreaking line of thinking.

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05-29-2012, 12:01 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
To Pitts:
Bozak
Kulemin
Holzer
5th overall

To Tor:
Staal
Tangradi
18th overall
ah....NO!

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05-29-2012, 12:03 PM
  #544
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Staal for Kesler.

Kesler's not afraid to play wing as long as the center is better than he is.

Malkin-Neal
Crosby-Kesler

Nice.


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05-29-2012, 12:05 PM
  #545
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Staal for Kesler.

Kesler's not afraid to play wing as long as the center is better than he is.

Malkin-Neal
Crosby-Kesler

Nice.


TOML
I don't think Vancouver does that. They would be better off keeping Kesler at center.

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05-29-2012, 12:09 PM
  #546
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Pens are looking for a quality package for Staal rather than a quantity one.

.
Im pretty high on Morin still so that sways me but id take that package for sure.

Bolland would be a perfect 3c on the pens.

Staalberg is a really solid up and comer who looks to be a perfect replacement for Dupuis in a few years, the higher scoring version of Dupuis that is. I really like staalbergs game.

Bickel adds great depth on the 3rd line and can slide up and down the lineup. Hes basically what we should hope tangradi becomes next year, a 6'4" 30-40 pt guy. And hes proven to play well with Holland.

Morin adds a legit wing prospect who can snipe and whose style of play fits bylsma perfect. Morin works really well down low and on the fore-check. And he plays a gritty game for a skill player. Hes the player I was honestly hoping for when we took despres.

The two picks could then be used to move up in the draft or included in a bigger deal to ship a defender out.


I get that proposal looks like spare parts but bolland and staalberg especially are legit players with upside. The deal would go a looong way to solidifying our forward depth for the next several years. If we ship staal id want a return like this, with up and comers and picks over a deal with one big name or more expensive player coming back with a few picks or prospects.

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05-29-2012, 12:54 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
And the other cold, hard fact is that is mostly been with the benefit of an increased offensive role. As such, it's really not a good measure by which to measure against someone who hasn't been in the same situation.

Schremp? Come on. He never made it while Bolland did. The point is that even with this offensive surge from Staal over the last two years, his career PPG are only slightly higher than Bolland's. And Staal has more experience than Bolland. It's reasonable to expect, given what he's done in the NHL and his scoring prowess in Juniors that he could produce more points in a more offensive role. Hardly a stretch, unlike the facile analogy of Schremp.


And in the 05-06 season, Bolland racked up 130 points in less than 60 games vs. Staal's 68 in 68.

Again, my point is that it's not a leap to expect Bolland to be a bigger point producer - given his track record in Juniors for piling up points - with a more offensive role in the NHL. Hardly a groundbreaking line of thinking.
and how many points do you think Staal would have got if he'd gone back for a 4th Junior season? comparing Bolland's 4th year total with Staal's 2nd is a complete waste of time.

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05-29-2012, 12:54 PM
  #548
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I don't think Vancouver does that. They would be better off keeping Kesler at center.
I would. Mostly because I don't like Kesler, and believe he is hard to play with.

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05-29-2012, 01:00 PM
  #549
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I would. Mostly because I don't like Kesler, and believe he is hard to play with.
And then when Staal walks as a UFA at seasons end, the Canucks are back to being a one line team.

No thanks.

Might as well wait 12 months and sign Staal to go along with Kesler.

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05-29-2012, 01:07 PM
  #550
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And then when Staal walks as a UFA at seasons end, the Canucks are back to being a one line team.

No thanks.

Might as well wait 12 months and sign Staal to go along with Kesler.
I don't see Staal signing with a team that has both top 6 centre spots filled unless it's the Pens.

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