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The Question that continually gets danced around

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Old
12-20-2004, 10:32 PM
  #1
John Flyers Fan
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The Question that continually gets danced around

Icewind Dale essentially brought it up the other day.

Scenario

Exact same seat, say front row of the 2nd level, right at center ice.

Guy in Edmonton pays $40 cdn.

Guy in Detroit pays $50 us.


Does the guy paying $50 us. have the right to expect a better/more expensive product than the guy paying $40 cdn. ???

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Old
12-20-2004, 10:34 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Icewind Dale essentially brought it up the other day.

Scenario

Exact same seat, say front row of the 2nd level, right at center ice.

Guy in Edmonton pays $40 cdn.

Guy in Detroit pays $50 us.


Does the guy paying $50 us. have the right to expect a better/more expensive product than the guy paying $40 cdn. ???
yes, but the owners dont care. they have the power to make their franchise value rise dramatically and thats what they are going to do.

to hell with hockey, they want their profit.

barf.

dr

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Old
12-20-2004, 10:52 PM
  #3
dulzhok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
to hell with hockey, they want their profit.
If you invest 80+ million on a team, do you think it's OK to have a negative return on investent?

Of course they want profit.

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Old
12-20-2004, 10:54 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Icewind Dale essentially brought it up the other day.

Scenario

Exact same seat, say front row of the 2nd level, right at center ice.

Guy in Edmonton pays $40 cdn.

Guy in Detroit pays $50 us.


Does the guy paying $50 us. have the right to expect a better/more expensive product than the guy paying $40 cdn. ???
No.

It's just different market dymanics.

Like Betman says, what a fan pay for a ticket in Detroit doesn't affect ticket prices in Edmonton. But what Detroit pays for players affects everything (including ticket prices) in Edmonton.

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Old
12-20-2004, 10:59 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok
If you invest 80+ million on a team, do you think it's OK to have a negative return on investent?

Of course they want profit.
It's not just year-to-year profit/loss that matters.

Over the past decade the Flyers probably lost in the neighborhood of $10 million, Over that same decade the value of the franchise has gone up by approx $150 million.

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Old
12-20-2004, 11:01 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok
If you invest 80+ million on a team, do you think it's OK to have a negative return on investent?

Of course they want profit.
and as they should. any team not making a profit can look themselves in the mirror and know exactly how to correct it.

they choose not to. i dont care if they cant help themselves and that bankrupts them. They wont go poor over it.

At teh end of the day, why would any of us peasants care how much money these mega rich lose ?

DR

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Old
12-20-2004, 11:01 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok
Like Betman says, what a fan pay for a ticket in Detroit doesn't affect ticket prices in Edmonton. But what Detroit pays for players affects everything (including ticket prices) in Edmonton.
I didn't say anything about the price of Detroit tickets affecting the price of tickets in Edmonton. Prices are set by what the market in each city. It comes down to how big & affluent is the fan base.

The question is should a guy paying more expect a better/more expensive product ???

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Old
12-20-2004, 11:03 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Does the guy paying $50 us. have the right to expect a better/more expensive product than the guy paying $40 cdn. ???
I guess he has the right to expect it, but if he truly believes it he should come back down to Earth.

Better doesn't necessarily mean more expensive, and the quality of the team is determined by the players on the ice, not the prices on the tickets.

Like dulzhok said, in Detroit, that guy's willing to pay a higher price for the same seat, regardless of what's on the ice. If he wants to pay less, he can take the stairs.

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Old
12-20-2004, 11:03 PM
  #9
dulzhok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
It's not just year-to-year profit/loss that matters.

Over the past decade the Flyers probably lost in the neighborhood of $10 million, Over that same decade the value of the franchise has gone up by approx $150 million.
Still losing money in the present and indefinite future.

For an 100 million dollar investment, you should be making atleast 20% ROI a year. Someone with 100 million can easily make 20% ROI elsewhere.

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Old
12-20-2004, 11:09 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok
Still losing money in the present and indefinite future.

For an 100 million dollar investment, you should be making atleast 20% ROI a year. Someone with 100 million can easily make 20% ROI elsewhere.
Agreed, and that is why people that buy sports franchises are NOT, doing it as an investment. If they were truly looking for a place to make the biggest return for their $100-200 million, they would NEVER have bought an NHL team, (or an NBA/MLB team either).

Buying sports franchises for those other than cable networks looking for programing, are an EGO purchase. The #1 goal isn't to make money. Would they like to make money ??? Certainly everyone does, but it isn't the #1 priority.

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Old
12-20-2004, 11:12 PM
  #11
dulzhok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Agreed, and that is why people that buy sports franchises are NOT, doing it as an investment. If they were truly looking for a place to make the biggest return for their $100-200 million, they would NEVER have bought an NHL team, (or an NBA/MLB team either).

Buying sports franchises for those other than cable networks looking for programing, are an EGO purchase. The #1 goal isn't to make money. Would they like to make money ??? Certainly everyone does, but it isn't the #1 priority.
But there comes a point where the losses (and opportunity cost of not investing elsewhere) make it not worth it.

That point has come for most NHL owners.


Last edited by dulzhok: 12-20-2004 at 11:25 PM.
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Old
12-21-2004, 12:04 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok
Still losing money in the present and indefinite future.

For an 100 million dollar investment, you should be making atleast 20% ROI a year. Someone with 100 million can easily make 20% ROI elsewhere.
No business in its first five years received a 20% ROI, as a matter of fact 90% lose money in the first five years

So explain to me how in the first five years how franchise values in Nashville, Pheonix and Atlanta have gone from 80 million dollars to 130 million dollars?

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12-21-2004, 12:51 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan

Does the guy paying $50 us. have the right to expect a better/more expensive product than the guy paying $40 cdn. ???
No.
A guy going to see "Ocean's 12" in New York City is going to pay $10.50 for a ticket. Another guy going to the same movie in Nashville will pay $7.50. Does the first guy have a right to expect the film he sees to be about 40 percent better than the one showing in Nashville? Should the popcorn taste better? Should the seat be plusher? Should the usher be more courteous?
Ticket prices are the result of local market forces much more than the product on the ice (or on the screen) itself.


Last edited by CarlRacki: 12-21-2004 at 01:00 AM.
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12-21-2004, 12:58 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan

Does the guy paying $50 us. have the right to expect a better/more expensive product than the guy paying $40 cdn. ???
Does a guy paying $25000 tax have a right to expect better roads than his neigbour paying $10000 tax.

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12-21-2004, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki
No.
A guy going to see "Ocean's 12" in New York City is going to pay $10.50 for a ticket. Another guy going to the same movie in Nashville will pay $7.50. Does the first guy have a right to expect the film he sees to be about 40 percent better than the one showing in Nashville? Should the popcorn taste better? Should the seat be plusher? She the usher be more courteous?
Ticket prices are the result of local market forces much more than the product on the ice (or on the screen) itself.
They must chop 25% of the film out before showing it in Nashville.

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12-21-2004, 01:50 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
Does a guy paying $25000 tax have a right to expect better roads than his neigbour paying $10000 tax.
you think its fair to compare discretionary spending with taxes ?

dr

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12-21-2004, 01:51 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki
No.
A guy going to see "Ocean's 12" in New York City is going to pay $10.50 for a ticket. Another guy going to the same movie in Nashville will pay $7.50. Does the first guy have a right to expect the film he sees to be about 40 percent better than the one showing in Nashville? Should the popcorn taste better? Should the seat be plusher? Should the usher be more courteous?
Ticket prices are the result of local market forces much more than the product on the ice (or on the screen) itself.
and movie production companies dont cap what actors make.

how come ?

dr

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12-21-2004, 01:52 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Agreed, and that is why people that buy sports franchises are NOT, doing it as an investment. If they were truly looking for a place to make the biggest return for their $100-200 million, they would NEVER have bought an NHL team, (or an NBA/MLB team either).

Buying sports franchises for those other than cable networks looking for programing, are an EGO purchase. The #1 goal isn't to make money. Would they like to make money ??? Certainly everyone does, but it isn't the #1 priority.

Well, how many people are going to buy a franchise that will lose them millions of dollars every year (keeping in mind that years down the road he may or may not even lose more money on the sale of said team... ie: what if they've sucked the whole time through bad management or crappy players...etc)?

Certainly not enough to populate a league like the NHL.

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12-21-2004, 01:54 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
They must chop 25% of the film out before showing it in Nashville.
lol :lol or make the people in Nashville watch it 25% longer... heh heh heh.

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12-21-2004, 02:03 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
and movie production companies dont cap what actors make.

how come ?

dr
Oh come on man... Movies don't NEED competition... they don't want competition! The NHL would suck if there were no competition... you know, because it's a sport we kind of expect that. Well, at least some of the posters here seem to want that.

"Please welcome your VANCOUVER CANUCKS !!!! " tonights opponents will be the "Surrey Mighty Midgets", that scrappy group of 11 year olds that have been grabbing some headline of late ! Parents please make certain your childeren have their helmets firmly strapped on before they step on the ice, as we expect the VANCOUVER CANUCKS to really be playing the body this evening.


eeeexcelllent.

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12-21-2004, 02:10 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
Oh come on man... Movies don't NEED competition... they don't want competition! The NHL would suck if there were no competition... you know, because it's a sport we kind of expect that. Well, at least some of the posters here seem to want that.

"Please welcome your VANCOUVER CANUCKS !!!! " tonights opponents will be the "Surrey Mighty Midgets", that scrappy group of 11 year olds that have been grabbing some headline of late ! Parents please make certain your childeren have their helmets firmly strapped on before they step on the ice, as we expect the VANCOUVER CANUCKS to really be playing the body this evening.


eeeexcelllent.
no disrespect intended, but i dont see your point. movie companies dont need a cap to protect their profits. competition or not.

dr

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12-21-2004, 02:20 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
no disrespect intended, but i dont see your point. movie companies dont need a cap to protect their profits. competition or not.

dr
Well it's because they are fundamentally different situations. Yes they are both kinds of entertainment, but Dreamworks doesn't care if they raise the salary level so high that no one else can afford uh... some actor.

It is important to the league that the majority of the teams can compete, or else the league falls appart. Hockey teams make money playing against other hockey teams... Movies make money if they are popular or not... I would say good, but often crappy movies make good dollars as well.

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12-21-2004, 02:30 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
and movie production companies dont cap what actors make.

how come ?

dr
What about the music industry? Singers get a percentage of the revenues unless they own their own record label. The more they sell the more they will make. Their salary is tied to revenue

 
Old
12-21-2004, 04:30 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Icewind Dale essentially brought it up the other day.

Scenario

Exact same seat, say front row of the 2nd level, right at center ice.

Guy in Edmonton pays $40 cdn.

Guy in Detroit pays $50 us.


Does the guy paying $50 us. have the right to expect a better/more expensive product than the guy paying $40 cdn. ???
In the real world, no.

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12-21-2004, 04:53 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Icewind Dale essentially brought it up the other day.

Scenario

Exact same seat, say front row of the 2nd level, right at center ice.

Guy in Edmonton pays $40 cdn.

Guy in Detroit pays $50 us.


Does the guy paying $50 us. have the right to expect a better/more expensive product than the guy paying $40 cdn. ???
In the perfect world, yes. In the current capitalistic world, hell no.

I pay 13USD to get in to see the same movie here that you pay what 10USD to see over there. Should I have the right to expect a better movie than you?

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