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Old
05-27-2012, 07:48 PM
  #51
Fuelled by Passion
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An Edmonton fan is taking shots at other team's players skating skills? Seriously?

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Old
05-27-2012, 08:05 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokeBackBulin View Post
Your best example is Bogosian getting caught by Kulemin with a huge head start...? but I guess the announcers say "look at Bogosian skate" right

Edmonton doesn't want anything to do with Bogosian at the price these homers are suggesting. Great he has a decent shot and can throw out some punishment you have yourselves a number 3-4 dman. Say all you want about him developing but he sure isn't going to develop a brain and he has **** for hockey sense.
You call us homers well of coarse we are! Just like Edmonton fans are homers for their team and players, it goes with the territory no?

You have your opinion of Bogosian and the good news is you won't have to suffer through watching him struggle away on your second unit in Edmonton, we will spare you of the pain.

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Old
05-27-2012, 08:11 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokeBackBulin View Post
Your best example is Bogosian getting caught by Kulemin with a huge head start...? but I guess the announcers say "look at Bogosian skate" right

Edmonton doesn't want anything to do with Bogosian at the price these homers are suggesting. Great he has a decent shot and can throw out some punishment you have yourselves a number 3-4 dman. Say all you want about him developing but he sure isn't going to develop a brain and he has **** for hockey sense.
I agree that some of the comments about Bogo for Ebs or RNH are way off, but let's not get carried away. Oil would love to get their hands on Bogo. He would immediately be your #1, and is likely our #2 on the Jets behind Enstrom (as a complete dman - rovers excluded). Ebs and RNH are untouchable, and rightly so. Bogo is untouchable on the Jets, and rightly so.

As for the hockey sense part. Bogo does everything with speed and power. He'll learn over time (with experience and confidence) that sometimes its better to let the play develop and it's okay to take it slow(er) at times (a la Doughty) when leading the rush. As for Bogo's skating. If you don't think he's fast or a strong skater, Wow!

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Old
05-27-2012, 08:31 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by OilyJet View Post
Hemsky is not soft. He's always willing to go into the dirty areas. He also might be the Jets' best forward if acquired. A trade centered around Byfuglien and Hemsky is a good idea actually.
Terrible idea.

Ryan Smyth is not soft, but Hemsky is - and injury prone. He does not battle consistently to win battles or take the puck hard to the net.

He's looking for open ice, 2 on 1's or b/a, to score and even that does not always work for him. If he had a better compete level, with his skill, he would be a consistent 30+ goal scorer. How many seasons of 30 goals (or over 23) has he had? Zero. From a skill perspective, he is very skilled. But, he had 10 goals last year in 69 games. He's also 29 in August.

He would not be the Jets best forward. He's been on the trade block for at least 2 years, but no takers. Obviously other teams do not value him as much as the Oil.

So instead, he is re-signed and paid $5 mill/yr for next 2 yrs. I think more questions need to be asked about how Steve Tambellini's doing in his job as GM.

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Old
05-27-2012, 09:09 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Nucks N Canes View Post
I find it hilarious how edmonton fans say buff is lazy etc etc yet if he was on their team he would be the only dman that would actually skate... Lol
Whu??? Have you ever watched Petry skate? Then there's the fact Nick Schultz is supposedly a beast when it comes to off-ice training. But yes, the guy who got arrested last year and was 286 lbs would not only be our best skater, but our hardest worker because we are the suckiest sucks that ever did suck. That is what you're trying to say, right?

As for the OP, put me down for a coinflip from the Oil side. I think it makes sense for both teams in a few ways. For Winnipeg, I think they could use a skilled playmaker to go with all their big forwards, and Hemsky is certainly that. Also, Buff's deal is backloaded, and from what I've heard the Jets have to operate under an internal cap, so the contract swap makes sense in terms of length and real dollars. For the Oil, they could use a RHD with size (even if he is lacking in his own end) to be a PP triggerman for the Nuge to set up. Pairing him with Nick Schultz might be enough to mask his defensive zone deficiencies.

Interesting and solid proposal.

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Old
05-27-2012, 09:39 PM
  #56
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Edmonton takes this and runs. I don't get why the Jets do this.

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Old
05-27-2012, 10:18 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets View Post
To Edmonton:
D Dustin Byfuglien
F Aaron Gagnon
3rd Round Pick

To Winnipeg:
F Ales Hemsky
F Teemu Hartikanen
D Theo Peckham

Edmonton gets a big body Dman, signed long term. Albeit hes not the best defensively, but Edmonton doesn't have that offensive dman to play with their young forward group and gets a good player here. Gagnon could fill in a RW/C spot on the third or 4th line in Edmonton as an energy guy, although I really just added him into the trade to give EDM a roster forward on a decent NHL contract back.

Winnipeg fills the 2nd line RW spot with a very good option in Hemsky, while adding a bit of experience to the top 6. We seem to have an abundance of OFD and while trading Buff isn't necessarily the highest return of our offensive dmen, Enstrom is probably more valuable to the team right now and makes him expendable. Plus adding Hartikanen, who has shown good potential and a real mucker/toughness defender the Jets are lacking in in Peckham to play on the bottom pairing with Stuart.

Couldnt really decide whether WPG adds a 2nd or a 3rd, but Im thinking a third...Am I way off here?
Yeah. Way off.

You're proposing scraps for steak.

Hemsky was a good player but he'd proven to be glass the last few years. Hartikainen tops out @ bottom 6 & Peckham is a physical D without a lot of defensive acumen. There is as good as the last 2 in St. John's. The 3rd rounder would probably result in the equivalent of either.

In return the Jets give up a front line player & a 3rd rounder. The Jets are building around young players (like the Oilers building around all their #1 picks).

Buff is 27 & there is always the option to move him back to forward. The only other good player in this trade is Hemsky who is only a year older but hasn't ever played a full season & keeps getting hurt.
Also, subtracting Buff detracts from team physical play & Hemsky definitely doesn't bring that. If he tries he's on LTIR.

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Old
05-28-2012, 12:16 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Yeah. Way off.

You're proposing scraps for steak.

Hemsky was a good player but he'd proven to be glass the last few years. Hartikainen tops out @ bottom 6 & Peckham is a physical D without a lot of defensive acumen. There is as good as the last 2 in St. John's. The 3rd rounder would probably result in the equivalent of either.

In return the Jets give up a front line player & a 3rd rounder. The Jets are building around young players (like the Oilers building around all their #1 picks).

Buff is 27 & there is always the option to move him back to forward. The only other good player in this trade is Hemsky who is only a year older but hasn't ever played a full season & keeps getting hurt.
Also, subtracting Buff detracts from team physical play & Hemsky definitely doesn't bring that. If he tries he's on LTIR.
I actually don't find that Buff uses his size well defensively. He's impossible to get off the puck, but he doesn't really throw his weight around to get others off the puck. I also think Hemsky is being overly criticized for his playing style in this thread - he's got injury problems but there are players who play far more of a perimeter game than he does. My objection is largely based on talent. Aside from injuries Hemsky is a decent second line player. Buff is one of the most creative offensive defensemen in the game. His defensive lapses are frustrating but when you're talking about a defenseman outscoring a forward while playing fewer games last year, there should be no comparison in skill level.

2011-2012 Stats:
Byfuglien - 66GP 12G 41A 53PTS
Hemsky - 69GP 10G 26A 36PTS

So people can get frustrated by Buff's defensive play at times and it has been covered extensively on the Jets forum but there's still no way that a player with his offensive talent goes for anywhere near this package. Elite offensive talent is rare and subsequently commands a high price, even if it means overlooking deficiencies in other aspects of the game. It's why even the most one-dimensional goal-scorers get huge contracts, it's why the Oilers keep selecting prospects with the highest offensive upside with their first overall picks, and it's why a player like Byfuglien doesn't get traded for scraps.

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Old
05-28-2012, 05:01 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokeBackBulin View Post
Your best example is Bogosian getting caught by Kulemin with a huge head start...? but I guess the announcers say "look at Bogosian skate" right

Edmonton doesn't want anything to do with Bogosian at the price these homers are suggesting. Great he has a decent shot and can throw out some punishment you have yourselves a number 3-4 dman. Say all you want about him developing but he sure isn't going to develop a brain and he has **** for hockey sense.
Either you don't understand skating, or you're just a brutal homer. Btw, not that it shows anything, but our number 3-4 d-man would have been Edmontons #1 D-man this year, AINEC.

And honestly, he didn't even need to show a clip of Bogosian skating. Saying Bogosian is a bad skater is on the lines of saying that Hall plays with no heart and RNH has horrible hockey sense.

But I guess we'll just have to see if our 21 year old #3-4 D-man who excelled in the role as a #1 D-man this year with Buff and Enström out, ate up minutes and led the defense (but unfortunately don't have any hockey sense) will progress into a true #1 D-man.

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Old
05-28-2012, 08:19 AM
  #60
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The OP is terrible for the Jets.

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Old
05-28-2012, 08:53 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Aerial View Post
For some reason nobody can figure out the second year of his deal is a one-way for league minimum next year.

Anyway, that said, I'm not that enthusiastic about this deal for the Jets, but meh... that's Aaron Gagnon for you.
It's actually fairly common for minor league vets, a two year deal that pays the NHL veteran minimum in the 2nd year. And in just about every case I've seen, they stay buried in the minors despite being paid by the parent club.

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Old
05-28-2012, 10:29 AM
  #62
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I think the OP is relatively close, assuming Hemsky is the player he "seems" to be as opposed to the player he actually is. Which is a dangerous (for winnipeg) assumption to make.

He never seems to actually put it together, yet continues to be seen as a good top 6'r, consistent 30 goal scorer, when in reality he's never done that.

He's got talent and skill, but at what point does that stop being worth anything if he never really manages to accomplish anything with that talent? regardless of his high level skill? 1 season of poor performance due to injuries is normal. 2 is bad luck. 3 and beyond is pretty indicative of something else, something i wouldn't want to touch.

Unfortunately for Edmonton, they kind of have some players that are worth the moon and stars( the big 3), and not a whole afterward(hemsky[percieved value, not real value] and ganger being the only "tweeners').

Though he doesn't fit the Jets "style" i'd probably be more after this package if you swapped Hemsky with Gagner.

Don't know how oil feels about that (is he worth much more then his stat line suggests, 8 point games excluded of course?)

As for "swapping Bogo for Buff and removing hartiknen" that's essentially saying, "I like this deal, but would you be interested in giving up twice as much and only receiving half of what we're originally offering?" Really, it's that bad.

I won't flame you for it, but no, no one would ever do that.

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Old
05-29-2012, 10:45 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets View Post
To Edmonton:
D Dustin Byfuglien
F Aaron Gagnon
3rd Round Pick

To Winnipeg:
F Ales Hemsky
F Teemu Hartikanen
D Theo Peckham

Couldn't really decide whether WPG adds a 2nd or a 3rd, but I'm thinking a third...Am I way off here?
Based strictly on hockey value, not on bias, perceptions or team needs, this isn't too far off. Although, the Gagnon adds no real value and the Oilers would be adding a second or third, not the Jets adding a third; here is my rational, based strictly on hockey value:

To Edmonton:
D Dustin Byfuglien - Top two in defensive scoring over the last two years, is a freaking monster in terms of size and strength and is locked up to a reasonable deal for the next four years.

To Winnipeg:
F Ales Hemsky - Solid top six forward who has had injury problems. His contract may be a little high for what he has done lately, but is still manageable.
F Teemu Hartikanen - Solid grit and glory type of player who could fill a bottom six role. Still no guarantee he makes the NHL, but is on cusp.
D Theo Peckham - Strong #7 defenses. Still could turn into a solid bottom pairing guy, but looks more like he will be a fringe player.
2012 2nd or 3rd - 9% to 15% chance of being an NHL regular

Buff's hockey value> Hemsky's value, and while the additions have potential to play a role in the NHL, the only value they bring is based on potential, not on any body of work in the NHL. The add ons bring balances out the difference from Buff to Hemsky.

Based on team needs, and speaking as someone who followed the Oil intensely while the Jets were gone, the deal doesn't work.

Why it doesn't work
Jets Perspective
The foundation of any big trade for the Jets needs to see a top line Center or hard forchecking RW to fit in the top six coming to the Jets.

I watched enough Oiler games to know Hemsky does not get the credit he deserves for how hard he plays the game; he goes into the tough areas and isn't afraid to take a hit to make a play. Hemsky after one healthy season doing what he can do would probably get Buff straight up, but he is still not the player the Jets need. As far as Peckham, he really doesn't bring much value in a trade like this. Hartikanen is a player I love!!!! In terms of making a proposal based on team needs, he has more value than strictly on Hockey value.

Why it doesn't work
Oilers Perspective
The Oil need to keep the puck out of their net. Best bet for them is to let Dubs see the first shot and not let anybody through for a second whack. When Whitney is healthy, they will have a true puck mover, and Petry is a legit two way defender. Tough I didn't see Schultz play as an Oiler, he is the kind of player the Oil need more of. Oilers would be better suited signing Jackman and Zanon in the off season.

IMO, the only deal I see making sense between the Jets an Oil would be around Hainsey.

To Oil
Ron Hainsey

To Jets
Hartikanen, Lander or Pitlick
2013 2nd or 3rd

I'm basing this deal to the Oduya deal and Hainsey>Oduya, which is why the return is greater.

To me that is the only deal that makes sense for both teams.

Sorry for the ramble, just have lots of strong feelings for both teams.

PS - Bogo is an incredible skater, almost fell out of my chair when I someone said he couldn't skate.

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Old
05-29-2012, 05:20 PM
  #64
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No for me. I see Buff as a very useful player, but he's more of a PP specialist and bottom 4 guy on defense, and a 2nd/3d line tweener at forward. He's certainly a useful player but he doesn't fit any role well enough to be considered a star IMO. Hemsky is a legitimate star player, and Hartikainen brings the size and grit we need longterm. We don't need Buff for the PP, and he won't solve our problems on defense (he's not a complete defender), so we are looking at acquiring a guy who would play forward. I don't think he brings anywhere near the offensive game that Hemsky does, and he doesn't bring that much more of a skill+size package than Hartikainen projects to bring to justify moving Hemsky. There is a reason he got 5 million, he's a terrific player.

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Old
05-29-2012, 05:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
[/B]

This may be one of the most inaccurate statements i've ever read on these boards. Bogo is one of the best skaters in the game today. Noel compares him to a hovercraft. His style is so effortless and pure.
I am an Oiler fan, and i agree with you 100%. Bogosian is a not the sum of all his parts yet, but when/if he does he will be impressive

There are win fans who feel that a dman with all the assets bogosian has is worth a player like Eberle. The problem for oiler fans is that bogosian has not put it all together yet and there is not a 100% certainty he will. Eberle is golden right now and his value to the team is to high to trade for a question mark.

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Old
05-29-2012, 06:52 PM
  #66
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Edmonton and Winnipeg are both young teams set in certain areas and very deficient in others. Unless some kind of pronger for shanahan type of deal is there to be had (based on this thread def not lol) then I say we leave it at they make poor trading partners.

Jets have depth at forward and defense already what they need is top end talent, especially at center and right wing. Edmonton has neither they'd like to spare so...

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05-29-2012, 09:00 PM
  #67
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As an Oilers fan I'd think about a ....
To Edmonton:
D Dustin Byfuglien

To Winnipeg:
F Sam Gagner
F Teemu Hartikanen

.. trade but that's still unlikely

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Old
05-29-2012, 09:31 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
No for me. I see Buff as a very useful player, but he's more of a PP specialist and bottom 4 guy on defense, and a 2nd/3d line tweener at forward. He's certainly a useful player but he doesn't fit any role well enough to be considered a star IMO. Hemsky is a legitimate star player, and Hartikainen brings the size and grit we need longterm. We don't need Buff for the PP, and he won't solve our problems on defense (he's not a complete defender), so we are looking at acquiring a guy who would play forward. I don't think he brings anywhere near the offensive game that Hemsky does, and he doesn't bring that much more of a skill+size package than Hartikainen projects to bring to justify moving Hemsky. There is a reason he got 5 million, he's a terrific player.
I'll agree with you that a player like Buff isnt worth giving up the farm for but Hemsky is as much of a "legitimate star" as Jonathan Cheechoo. Until he can prove that he's healthy and can produce again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncanmac81 View Post
As an Oilers fan I'd think about a ....
To Edmonton:
D Dustin Byfuglien

To Winnipeg:
F Sam Gagner
F Teemu Hartikanen

.. trade but that's still unlikely
The Oilers need a two way defenseman. Buff is like a bigger MA Bergeron, which the Oilers PP does not need. Who do you propose plays 2nd line centre for the Oilers next season? Who do the Oilers have on LW in the system(besides Hall)?

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05-29-2012, 09:47 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
I think the OP is relatively close, assuming Hemsky is the player he "seems" to be as opposed to the player he actually is. Which is a dangerous (for winnipeg) assumption to make.

He never seems to actually put it together, yet continues to be seen as a good top 6'r, consistent 30 goal scorer, when in reality he's never done that.

He's got talent and skill, but at what point does that stop being worth anything if he never really manages to accomplish anything with that talent? regardless of his high level skill? 1 season of poor performance due to injuries is normal. 2 is bad luck. 3 and beyond is pretty indicative of something else, something i wouldn't want to touch.

Unfortunately for Edmonton, they kind of have some players that are worth the moon and stars( the big 3), and not a whole afterward(hemsky[percieved value, not real value] and ganger being the only "tweeners').

Though he doesn't fit the Jets "style" i'd probably be more after this package if you swapped Hemsky with Gagner.

Don't know how oil feels about that (is he worth much more then his stat line suggests, 8 point games excluded of course?)

As for "swapping Bogo for Buff and removing hartiknen" that's essentially saying, "I like this deal, but would you be interested in giving up twice as much and only receiving half of what we're originally offering?" Really, it's that bad.

I won't flame you for it, but no, no one would ever do that.
Hemsky is more of a 20 goal 50 assist type of player when healthy. He could be the Jets' best forward if acquired and I think a trade centered around Byfuglien for Hemsky is a good idea tbh.

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Old
05-29-2012, 09:49 PM
  #70
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The Oilers need a two way defenseman. Buff is like a bigger MA Bergeron, which the Oilers PP does not need. Who do you propose plays 2nd line centre for the Oilers next season? Who do the Oilers have on LW in the system(besides Hall)?
their number one selection, Yakapov if they take him

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05-29-2012, 09:50 PM
  #71
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I think Byfuglien would be sweet on Edmonton's defence with big Andy Sutton but would rather have Tobias ripping it up with the kids.

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05-29-2012, 09:53 PM
  #72
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pass on big buff

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05-29-2012, 09:54 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Duncanmac81 View Post
their number one selection, Yakapov if they take him
yakupov is rw not lw..

and to answer previous question, paajarvi is next up on depth chart for lw.

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05-29-2012, 09:59 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by OilyJet View Post
Hemsky is more of a 20 goal 50 assist type of player when healthy. He could be the Jets' best forward if acquired and I think a trade centered around Byfuglien for Hemsky is a good idea tbh.
Nope. Skilled, yes. Jets' best forward, not even close. If the oil take Yak, there is no need for Hemsky, at all.

Remember when all the buzz was Detroit really wanted Hemsky at the last couple of trade deadlines? The oil overvalue this guy far too much. Nobody wants him because he's injury prone and does not produce. Had 10 goals in 69 games - in one of the few years he played 80+% of the games in a season.

Buff is not perfect, but his value is greater than Hemsky.

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Old
05-29-2012, 10:01 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncanmac81 View Post
their number one selection, Yakapov if they take him
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam98 View Post
yakupov is rw not lw..

and to answer previous question, paajarvi is next up on depth chart for lw.
Fingers crossed that Paajarvi can bounce back from a brutal season. I see Hall, Paajarvi, Hartikainen, and Eager as our only current NHL LW's Sad but we cant afford to open up two holes in our top 9 for a player like Byfuglien

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