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Hull's 119.5mph Slapshot A Myth

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:35 AM
  #76
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I don't know what they were doing, but someone either made a gross timing error, mis-calibrated the equipment, or outright lied to get the results discussed.
Lloyd Percival was a well known and well respected hockey researcher so I doubt this. At worst for the slap shot he used a different methodology then is used today. Unless someone can come up with some current studies on wrist shots and backhands we have nothing to compare his study with.

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05-31-2012, 09:28 AM
  #77
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Lloyd Percival was a well known and well respected hockey researcher so I doubt this. At worst for the slap shot he used a different methodology then is used today.
Exactly.

I'm not sure why this is so difficult for people to grasp in the thread.


Quote:
Unless someone can come up with some current studies on wrist shots and backhands we have nothing to compare his study with.
Agreed. And even then, as with the slapshots, we'd need to know the specific methodologies to be able to compare them 1 to 1.

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05-31-2012, 10:40 AM
  #78
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I remember reading somewhere that a plausible explanation was that Popular Mechanics was measuring the speed of the puck at it's fastest, just as it left the stick.. and that nowadays they measure the speed of the puck after it travels 15-20 feet to the net and has decelerated considerably...

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05-31-2012, 11:54 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Lloyd Percival was a well known and well respected hockey researcher...
...boy theres a Blast from the Past!. Lloyd Percivals Hockey Handbook.
Like the Bible of Hockey for many in Southern Ontario circa 1960's.

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05-31-2012, 12:02 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by tommygunn View Post
I remember reading somewhere that a plausible explanation was that Popular Mechanics was measuring the speed of the puck at it's fastest, just as it left the stick.. and that nowadays they measure the speed of the puck after it travels 15-20 feet to the net and has decelerated considerably...
I would think they used some sort of impact device in the net? I'm pretty sure they didn't have a laser gun or anything like that back then? Interesting that with all the references to Hull's 118-120 shot they never tell you what kind of measuring device they used?

The slapshot competition nowadays is from 30 feet out. I don't know at what point the speed is registered?

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05-31-2012, 01:51 PM
  #81
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...boy theres a Blast from the Past!. Lloyd Percivals Hockey Handbook.
Like the Bible of Hockey for many in Southern Ontario circa 1960's.
Originally published in 1951. Rejected by the NHL and bought into by the Russians. We have seen the results of that.

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05-31-2012, 02:08 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Originally published in 1951. Rejected by the NHL and bought into by the Russians. We have seen the results of that.
Alexander Ryazantsev's 114mph slapshot?

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05-31-2012, 02:52 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Originally published in 1951. Rejected by the NHL and bought into by the Russians. We have seen the results of that.
...yepp, "the product of a 3 year old mind" according to one NHL coach; while Tarasov said "your wonderful book introduced us to the mysteries of Canadian hockey... I have read it like a schoolboy".

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05-31-2012, 06:59 PM
  #84
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so true

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06-01-2012, 02:31 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Lloyd Percival was a well known and well respected hockey researcher so I doubt this. At worst for the slap shot he used a different methodology then is used today. Unless someone can come up with some current studies on wrist shots and backhands we have nothing to compare his study with.
Again, there is no methodology. The results are simply too out-of-whack. There is simply nothing on this planet you can do to make a puck leave a hockey stick on the backhand anywhere near that fast - basically as fast as the slapshots of most top players today.

A 96 mph backhand is utterly ridiculous. Same with the wrister numbers for Howe.

Again, its like saying a sprinter from the 1960s ran the 100m dash in 7 seconds. Absolutely impossible, no matter how well know the person claiming it might be.

The skills comps that today's players test their shots in are absolute 'best case' scenarios to get the most crowd-pleasing numbers possible, and consistently for the last 25 years the best players top out at 98-105 mph. 119 is impossible, just like throwing a baseball at 119 mph is impossible.

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06-01-2012, 02:58 AM
  #86
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Again, there is no methodology. The results are simply too out-of-whack. There is simply nothing on this planet you can do to make a puck leave a hockey stick on the backhand anywhere near that fast - basically as fast as the slapshots of most top players today.

A 96 mph backhand is utterly ridiculous.
Same with the wrister numbers for Howe.

Again, its like saying a sprinter from the 1960s ran the 100m dash in 7 seconds. Absolutely impossible, no matter how well know the person claiming it might be.

The skills comps that today's players test their shots in are absolute 'best case' scenarios to get the most crowd-pleasing numbers possible, and consistently for the last 25 years the best players top out at 98-105 mph. 119 is impossible, just like throwing a baseball at 119 mph is impossible.
Especially when Hull was only 5'10''. It's just physically impossible for a human being to generate that much torque to make a backhand go at that speed.

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06-01-2012, 08:29 AM
  #87
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The methodology is flawed because some results are unbelievable even in relation to each other. A quality measurement system should be uniform, yet there is nothing uniform about these numbers.


These results are beyond comical. But whatever, at least they verify the original 6 players had superhuman strength (allegedly obtained by working on farms).
I mean we already knew Hull, all 5-10 190 of him, would've stripped the puck from Lucic with a flying clothesline, skated down the ice in 1.34 seconds, stopped on a dime to suplex Chara, then shot the puck straight through Thomas' pads with his backhand!!!
just to let you know Gordie Howe loaded trucks with bags of concrete after school starting at age 12 and that was in addition to working construction with his father from around the same age. This was a lot different then working after school in a Macdonalds like most kids do today

I saw both Howe and Hull play in their primes and whether you like to think so or not they would tear most guys in todays NHL a new ahole. They're was a ferocity and toughness about them that was extraordinary in comparison to todays players. While they probably weren't quite as aerobically fit as todays NHLer, both were generational and amongst the greatest who ever played.

While Lucic may seem "really tough" to you, I really doubt he could handle a John Ferguson whom both Howe and Hull battered. Belittling those old-timers may seem really clever, but not having seen them play, you know very little about them.

As for how hard they shot the puck, there wasn't much difference from todays kids, the biggest difference now to then is that more guys today have those big shots. In yesterdays NHL it was only a couple of guys on each team, whereas today it's more than likely that only a couple of guys don't have great shots on each team


Last edited by therealkoho: 06-01-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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06-01-2012, 11:25 AM
  #88
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A VW van can probably reach a higher maximum speed than most Ferarri's if you drop it out of a plane.
... thanks for that btw.

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Originally Posted by MW View Post
If Hull was taking a slap shot while standing on a platform on top of a fighter jet...
... from the deck of a beached carrier with a mushroom cloud rising in the background? Bobby pickin off Rhino mounted Bhuntu Warrior Shock Troops with his slappers?.... had that airbrushed onto the side of a 66 split window VW van that I donated to BraveCanadian, who in turn dropped it on the Taliban from 10,000 feet from the back of a Fokker F27 cargo plane back in odd 6.

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06-01-2012, 02:13 PM
  #89
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Some of you guys really have to stop talking about manual labor. It's obvious you have never done any, and it's embarrassing to read your posts. I've done various forms of it, starting with summers as a 13 year old in my uncle's concrete biz. I have poured concrete, wheeled it, loaded bricks, fought a forest fire, built houses, bailed hay (just one day), and presently work at a sawmill. Never mind the fact that I am not very strong, and that I have had back problems for much of my life, until I dicovered olympic lifting and crossfit, but also - I have worked with hundreds of these 'blue-collar heroes' you guys are on about in this thread. They smoke, have bellies, and about 1 out of ten of them are strong enough to remark about. That 10% probably just has good genetics, but also, usually, in fact, possibly always but i don't wanna be 100% because my memory is going back over a lot of years here, but NEARLY always that 1/10 blue collar, Paul Bunyan, tears in me- eyes, O! Canada, plaid-wearin' motherucker - ALSO WORKS OUT.

Now, I have made my best effort to debunk the first course of mindless insanity in this thread.

#2

Having big muscles makes you pretty much a shoe in for a huge slap shot.

No.

Technique, and general height/length means more. Same rule in a golf swing. Speed is easier to generate if your stick blade/club head has a longer track on which to accumalate speed. Explosive power will help you generate it over a shorter track, and that does involve muscles, but not Paul Bunyan muscles. Explosive power is more about speed. Think sprinters coming out of the block. (Funny link - back in the 70's the USSR had their oly lifters come out of the blocks - turned out they were faster for the first 10 meters than their track counterparts!!! Guess who started using oly lifting in their training???) The power generated in a hockey slapper, or a golf swing is more about technique, and actually flexibilty (which allows you to have a longer track) than it is about bulk muscle. If the puck was heavier, than there would be a larger element of resistance at impact, THEN strength would play a much bigger role, as you have to maintain your forward force THROUGH impact. This is why a heavyweight hits harder than a middleweight in boxing. He has more 'weight behind his punch'. The middleweight throws faster, which would send a light object further, but can't go through a man's head the same.

Like I said about Russian/world sprinting - these guys that run the big leagues have teams of serious professionals studying this stuff. There is big money involved, and loads of passion -AND it's their 9-5 job! Do you honestly think none of the thousands of coaches and trainers in the last 50 years of sport, NOT JUST NHL, but ALL sport, haven't considered getting their guys to 'load concrete', 'bail hay, or 'chew more tabaccy'?? Do you honestly think that the most cut throat, competitive guys, who are looking for actual MILLIONS of dollars in their next contract wouldn't be willing to do it in the summers??

Stop the bloody madness, boys.

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06-01-2012, 02:55 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
Some of you guys really have to stop talking about manual labor. It's obvious you have never done any, and it's embarrassing to read your posts. I've done various forms of it, starting with summers as a 13 year old in my uncle's concrete biz. I have poured concrete, wheeled it, loaded bricks, fought a forest fire, built houses, bailed hay (just one day), and presently work at a sawmill. Never mind the fact that I am not very strong, and that I have had back problems for much of my life, until I dicovered olympic lifting and crossfit, but also - I have worked with hundreds of these 'blue-collar heroes' you guys are on about in this thread. They smoke, have bellies, and about 1 out of ten of them are strong enough to remark about. That 10% probably just has good genetics, but also, usually, in fact, possibly always but i don't wanna be 100% because my memory is going back over a lot of years here, but NEARLY always that 1/10 blue collar, Paul Bunyan, tears in me- eyes, O! Canada, plaid-wearin' motherucker - ALSO WORKS OUT.

Now, I have made my best effort to debunk the first course of mindless insanity in this thread.

#2

Having big muscles makes you pretty much a shoe in for a huge slap shot.

No.

Technique, and general height/length means more. Same rule in a golf swing. Speed is easier to generate if your stick blade/club head has a longer track on which to accumalate speed. Explosive power will help you generate it over a shorter track, and that does involve muscles, but not Paul Bunyan muscles. Explosive power is more about speed. Think sprinters coming out of the block. (Funny link - back in the 70's the USSR had their oly lifters come out of the blocks - turned out they were faster for the first 10 meters than their track counterparts!!! Guess who started using oly lifting in their training???) The power generated in a hockey slapper, or a golf swing is more about technique, and actually flexibilty (which allows you to have a longer track) than it is about bulk muscle. If the puck was heavier, than there would be a larger element of resistance at impact, THEN strength would play a much bigger role, as you have to maintain your forward force THROUGH impact. This is why a heavyweight hits harder than a middleweight in boxing. He has more 'weight behind his punch'. The middleweight throws faster, which would send a light object further, but can't go through a man's head the same.

Like I said about Russian/world sprinting - these guys that run the big leagues have teams of serious professionals studying this stuff. There is big money involved, and loads of passion -AND it's their 9-5 job! Do you honestly think none of the thousands of coaches and trainers in the last 50 years of sport, NOT JUST NHL, but ALL sport, haven't considered getting their guys to 'load concrete', 'bail hay, or 'chew more tabaccy'?? Do you honestly think that the most cut throat, competitive guys, who are looking for actual MILLIONS of dollars in their next contract wouldn't be willing to do it in the summers??

Stop the bloody madness, boys.
Good post. I had a good laugh too.

Has anyone ever tried to measure stick speed? I'm curious because this may be one key behind a quick shot. In baseball they measure bat and arm speed and these variables are common denominators for hitting the ball far and throwing the ball hard. Players that can generate excellent bat or arm speed have a major thing in common - elite fast twitch muscles. Unfortunately, you are either born with them or not. However, your genetics can improve up to 30 % with training.

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06-01-2012, 03:59 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
I have worked with hundreds of these 'blue-collar heroes' you guys are on about in this thread. They smoke, have bellies, and about 1 out of ten of them are strong enough to remark about. That 10% probably just has good genetics, but also, usually, in fact, possibly always but i don't wanna be 100% because my memory is going back over a lot of years here, but NEARLY always that 1/10 blue collar, Paul Bunyan, tears in me- eyes, O! Canada, plaid-wearin' motherucker - ALSO WORKS OUT....Stop the bloody madness boys.
... most amusing. Yes, the Slapshot. Reputed to have actually been invented by a black player in the 1880's called Eddie Martianni who played for the Halifax Eurekas'; or as modern legend has it, Bernie Boom Boom Geoffrion of Montreal. In the 50's, Andy Bathgate, then with the Rangers, introduced the curved blade, breaking his sticks deliberately, picked up either by chance or copied by Makita & then Hull.

Though todays sticks are made out of composites, kevlar etc, claiming more consistent flexibility patterns, a harder & more accurate shot than all wood, that is simply a fallacy, as with a slapshot wood posses the same responsiveness and in no way handicaps or would slow the speed, and if using say a 3" banana curve, since outlawed, you may indeed be able to send the puck through space & time at close to 120mph or better. The current records, using composites, are held by Zdeno Chara at 108.8mph, however, Alex Ryazantsev had his shot clocked at 114.3mph at the 2012 KHL All Star Game.

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06-01-2012, 04:18 PM
  #92
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Alex Ryazantsev had his shot clocked at 114.3mph at the 2012 KHL All Star Game.
Yeah right.. obviously impossible. He's only 5'11.

According to the geniuses in this thread, anyways.. ohhh wait.. the KHL positions the puck differently.. you mean that different methodologies produce different measurements???? o m g.

Perfect example of what we are talking about in this thread (apart from the knee jerkers):

Quote:
Alas, we come back to the usual problem when comparing feats of strength in the KHL Hardest Shot competition and those from the NHL's. The KHL places the puck "at a distance of 7-8 meters from the goal." The NHL places its puck "30 feet from the center of the goal." Basically, the hash marks vs. the top of the circle.
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...174131642.html

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06-01-2012, 05:23 PM
  #93
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just to let you know Gordie Howe loaded trucks with bags of concrete after school starting at age 12 and that was in addition to working construction with his father from around the same age. This was a lot different then working after school in a Macdonalds like most kids do today

I saw both Howe and Hull play in their primes and whether you like to think so or not they would tear most guys in todays NHL a new ahole. They're was a ferocity and toughness about them that was extraordinary in comparison to todays players. While they probably weren't quite as aerobically fit as todays NHLer, both were generational and amongst the greatest who ever played.

While Lucic may seem "really tough" to you, I really doubt he could handle a John Ferguson whom both Howe and Hull battered. Belittling those old-timers may seem really clever, but not having seen them play, you know very little about them.

As for how hard they shot the puck, there wasn't much difference from todays kids, the biggest difference now to then is that more guys today have those big shots. In yesterdays NHL it was only a couple of guys on each team, whereas today it's more than likely that only a couple of guys don't have great shots on each team

Cmon, lighten up.

My post was a sarcastic jab at old-timers who mythologize the original 6 players.
Were Hull and Howe two of the greatest ever? Without question, and (given modern training) would dominate today's game like they did 40 years ago. But lets not turn them into comic book super heroes who have 119 mph slapshots, 96 mph backhands, and who attain super human strength by pouring concrete and pitching hay.

Its the exact opposite of today's foolish under-20 crowd who claim yesterday's greats are 2012 beer league level. Its total rubbish on both sides.


Last edited by Hanji: 06-01-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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06-01-2012, 07:36 PM
  #94
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Yeah right.. obviously impossible. He's only 5'11.

According to the geniuses in this thread, anyways.. ohhh wait.. the KHL positions the puck differently.. you mean that different methodologies produce different measurements???? o m g.

Perfect example of what we are talking about in this thread (apart from the knee jerkers):



http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...174131642.html
thank you Killion.

Yep, holy ****, it is impossible to shoot it that fast especially for a guy under 6'5". Yet this guy who was only slightly bigger than Bobby Hull did it. Maybe Bobby's 118mph slap shot isn't so far fetched after all.

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06-01-2012, 08:06 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah right.. obviously impossible. He's only 5'11.

According to the geniuses in this thread, anyways.. ohhh wait.. the KHL positions the puck differently.. you mean that different methodologies produce different measurements???? o m g.

Perfect example of what we are talking about in this thread (apart from the knee jerkers):



http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...174131642.html
Good find, guys. I think it's obvious that Percival was measuring things much closer to how the KHL does it than the current NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
thank you Killion.

Yep, holy ****, it is impossible to shoot it that fast especially for a guy under 6'5". Yet this guy who was only slightly bigger than Bobby Hull did it. Maybe Bobby's 118mph slap shot isn't so far fetched after all.
But on the other hand, you can't really compare Bobby Hull's "118 MPH" slap shot with MacInnis' 105 or Chara's 109, since they were pretty clearly not the same type of measurement.

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06-01-2012, 08:11 PM
  #96
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But on the other hand, you can't really compare Bobby Hull's "118 MPH" slap shot with MacInnis' 105 or Chara's 109, since they were pretty clearly not the same type of measurement.
Agree. But I still think Hull had the harder shot. Would be interesting to measure Chara under the same circumstances.

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06-01-2012, 08:29 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
Some of you guys really have to stop talking about manual labor. It's obvious you have never done any, and it's embarrassing to read your posts. I've done various forms of it, starting with summers as a 13 year old in my uncle's concrete biz. I have poured concrete, wheeled it, loaded bricks, fought a forest fire, built houses, bailed hay (just one day), and presently work at a sawmill. Never mind the fact that I am not very strong, and that I have had back problems for much of my life, until I dicovered olympic lifting and crossfit, but also - I have worked with hundreds of these 'blue-collar heroes' you guys are on about in this thread. They smoke, have bellies, and about 1 out of ten of them are strong enough to remark about. That 10% probably just has good genetics, but also, usually, in fact, possibly always but i don't wanna be 100% because my memory is going back over a lot of years here, but NEARLY always that 1/10 blue collar, Paul Bunyan, tears in me- eyes, O! Canada, plaid-wearin' motherucker - ALSO WORKS OUT.

Now, I have made my best effort to debunk the first course of mindless insanity in this thread.

#2

Having big muscles makes you pretty much a shoe in for a huge slap shot.

No.

Technique, and general height/length means more. Same rule in a golf swing. Speed is easier to generate if your stick blade/club head has a longer track on which to accumalate speed. Explosive power will help you generate it over a shorter track, and that does involve muscles, but not Paul Bunyan muscles. Explosive power is more about speed. Think sprinters coming out of the block. (Funny link - back in the 70's the USSR had their oly lifters come out of the blocks - turned out they were faster for the first 10 meters than their track counterparts!!! Guess who started using oly lifting in their training???) The power generated in a hockey slapper, or a golf swing is more about technique, and actually flexibilty (which allows you to have a longer track) than it is about bulk muscle. If the puck was heavier, than there would be a larger element of resistance at impact, THEN strength would play a much bigger role, as you have to maintain your forward force THROUGH impact. This is why a heavyweight hits harder than a middleweight in boxing. He has more 'weight behind his punch'. The middleweight throws faster, which would send a light object further, but can't go through a man's head the same.

Like I said about Russian/world sprinting - these guys that run the big leagues have teams of serious professionals studying this stuff. There is big money involved, and loads of passion -AND it's their 9-5 job! Do you honestly think none of the thousands of coaches and trainers in the last 50 years of sport, NOT JUST NHL, but ALL sport, haven't considered getting their guys to 'load concrete', 'bail hay, or 'chew more tabaccy'?? Do you honestly think that the most cut throat, competitive guys, who are looking for actual MILLIONS of dollars in their next contract wouldn't be willing to do it in the summers??

Stop the bloody madness, boys.
Chew more tabaccy gave me the literal LOL. Nice post.

Also, let me add moving furniture to the list in the first paragraph. Most guys I worked with smoked, had bellies, and the ones that were strong enough to talk about and in shape lifted weights.

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06-01-2012, 08:30 PM
  #98
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Maybe Bobby's 118mph slap shot isn't so far fetched after all.
.... using the kinds of warped blades in vogue back in the day its a certainty. They altered the traditional aerodynamic characteristics of puck flight, hideously gaining rather than losing or depleting speed as it arced & then dipped, rising up again, Up, Up & UP straight at your head so fast you cant even see it...

Defied the laws of physics. Criminal. Youd' see the puck upon impact with the shooters blade for a split second & then youd have to "guess" based on point of impact & departure from the blade & the shooters body lingo where it was headed, then pray you had the angle covered because that puck was gone from human sight during its flight. And thats fired from almost anyone of say moderately elite proficiency of any size using a 3" curve. Just unbelievably fast, & deadly. Anyone arguing "its not possible", go out & buy some sticks, wood & composite. Curve the blades using a blow torch & a door jam. Fire away. Compare. You'll see, oh yes you will. Guaraneffntee it.


Last edited by Killion: 06-01-2012 at 08:36 PM.
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06-01-2012, 09:35 PM
  #99
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It's the combination of thick boned, high muscle mass genetics + heavy manual labor that goes into the term 'country strong' which I believe was was coined in a Sports Illustrated article referring to Bo Jackson, who had never lifted weights in his life, putting to shame most of his peers once he finally made it into a weight room.

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06-02-2012, 07:48 AM
  #100
therealkoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
Cmon, lighten up.

My post was a sarcastic jab at old-timers who mythologize the original 6 players.
Were Hull and Howe two of the greatest ever? Without question, and (given modern training) would dominate today's game like they did 40 years ago. But lets not turn them into comic book super heroes who have 119 mph slapshots, 96 mph backhands, and who attain super human strength by pouring concrete and pitching hay.

Its the exact opposite of today's foolish under-20 crowd who claim yesterday's greats are 2012 beer league level. Its total rubbish on both sides.
nor do I believe they shot the puck with that kind of velocity, as I get older though I'm finding my tolerance to ageism diminishing. I used to laugh at the old chestnut of youth being wasted on the young, but the blatant dis-respect for the past or the older generation(my generation) is beyond tolerable and sometimes needs to be addressed.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

As for manual labour making you stronger no one said that, the point was that at 12 Howe was capable of doing a job most adults cannot do, due to a lack of strength

You're either born with it or not, while weight training can improve physique and conditiong and does add some overall strength, if you weren't born with it, all the weights in the world will not turn you into Hercules.

As for Bobby Hull it is w/o question he had the hardest shot of his day and while I do not believe he shot the puck at 119, his accuracy was amazing. The mythology of "I never know where it's going" was in place to terrorize netminders. I saw Dennis Hull nail Ceasare Maniago in the face with a slapper after stepping in over the blue-line, keep in mind there were guys on the Hawks who swore Dennis shot was harder then Bobby's and that list includes Bobby. Maniago was always a little shakey against the Hawks after that, not saying that Dennis shot high on purpose, but then again!

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