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Hull's 119.5mph Slapshot A Myth

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06-02-2012, 07:53 AM
  #101
VanIslander
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Big Joe Thornton couldn't do the bench press at the combine when he was drafted.

Modern athletes aren't so much stronger than some elite athletes of the past, especially in terms of muscular strength given the longstanding farming labour tradition among hockey players. Several early HOFFers spent their offseasons doing hard farm labor. That tradition has passed...

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06-02-2012, 10:32 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
As for Bobby Hull it is w/o question he had the hardest shot of his day and while I do not believe he shot the puck at 119, his accuracy was amazing. The mythology of "I never know where it's going" was in place to terrorize netminders. I saw Dennis Hull nail Ceasare Maniago in the face with a slapper after stepping in over the blue-line, keep in mind there were guys on the Hawks who swore Dennis shot was harder then Bobby's and that list includes Bobby. Maniago was always a little shakey against the Hawks after that, not saying that Dennis shot high on purpose, but then again!
...well now Koho, Im afraid Im going to hafta take exception your post here. In my experience & therefore my opinion, a vast majority of the players using the slap had nothing more than a vague idea where the puck was going to wind up using 2"-3" curves on their blade. Oh sure, they'd target an area, a small opening or low, top shelf, whatever, however, as I explained earlier the flight dynamics were such, arcing, dropping or rising, there was no way you could pinpoint your shot unless you were max 20' from the top of the crease & even then.... the puck behaved like a Hummingbird on Acid. Only a small percentage of players, Bobby Hull included, could maybe hit what they wanted to hit and even then only about 60% of the time provided they had the time & space to do so, shooting against some poor sap who was far too deep in his net to do much more than accept the inevitable. No "myth" to scare goalies, Hull was speaking the truth.

... as for the "headshots"?. Liberally deployed, even to this day as a tactic to put some fear into the goalie, wake him up, get him second guessing. Done often on the first shot of the game. Dennis Hull's shot was notoriously wild. High, wide, over the glass, into the seats, up into the girders, ricocheting around like live ammo. As likely to take out one of his own team mates, a spectator as it was to actually hit the net.... head shots were/are deliberately taken by just about everyone, with the exception of your Lady Byng Cherry types. A Doctored Koho having undergone delamination, torched, warped & then hideously filed down robbed it of all sense of accuracy on a full windup slapshot, and you of all posters know this. Alibi'ng up with mythical fairytales that Bobby Hull just "made that up" to "scare" the Union of Goaltenders insults our intelligence and is nothing short of Historical Revisionism Sir. Pull the other one....

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06-03-2012, 07:37 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
...well now Koho, Im afraid Im going to hafta take exception your post here. In my experience & therefore my opinion, a vast majority of the players using the slap had nothing more than a vague idea where the puck was going to wind up using 2"-3" curves on their blade. Oh sure, they'd target an area, a small opening or low, top shelf, whatever, however, as I explained earlier the flight dynamics were such, arcing, dropping or rising, there was no way you could pinpoint your shot unless you were max 20' from the top of the crease & even then.... the puck behaved like a Hummingbird on Acid. Only a small percentage of players, Bobby Hull included, could maybe hit what they wanted to hit and even then only about 60% of the time provided they had the time & space to do so, shooting against some poor sap who was far too deep in his net to do much more than accept the inevitable. No "myth" to scare goalies, Hull was speaking the truth.

... as for the "headshots"?. Liberally deployed, even to this day as a tactic to put some fear into the goalie, wake him up, get him second guessing. Done often on the first shot of the game. Dennis Hull's shot was notoriously wild. High, wide, over the glass, into the seats, up into the girders, ricocheting around like live ammo. As likely to take out one of his own team mates, a spectator as it was to actually hit the net.... head shots were/are deliberately taken by just about everyone, with the exception of your Lady Byng Cherry types. A Doctored Koho having undergone delamination, torched, warped & then hideously filed down robbed it of all sense of accuracy on a full windup slapshot, and you of all posters know this. Alibi'ng up with mythical fairytales that Bobby Hull just "made that up" to "scare" the Union of Goaltenders insults our intelligence and is nothing short of Historical Revisionism Sir. Pull the other one....
shooting at a goaltenders head no way, no one does that, do they?


You didn't need to doctor the original run of Pro-Finns or koho's, they had flex to spare, it was as easy as shooting a paper-clip with a rubber band and just as accurate when you figured it out

......didn't really say Hull made that myth up, what I wrote was that he did nothing to to dispel that notion nor did the press of the day. A guy like Hull doesn't score 913 regular season pro goals without knowing here he wants the puck to go, even though the pucks would dance a bit and would sometimes dive, but that was only when the puck came off the the end of the stick or was already up on edge when you shot it.

When Hull used those stiff as a board Northlands his shot was accurate when he flipped over to kohos he became deadly accurate, same can be said of Lafleur another guy who did use filed down and accutely curved Victoriaville's then koho's and finally Sherwood's and he was pretty darn accurate from 10 ft inside the blue-line

No revisionism at all my friend

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06-05-2012, 12:54 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
shooting at a goaltenders head no way, no one does that, do they?
... yes, they did. Quite deliberately. Sure, Koho's were a wonder when they first arrived. Loads of flex & lighter as you state, however, they too were "Doctored". I remember it well my friend, as I was a goalie, the target of its deadly & viscous design, guys on my teams performing all manner of cruelty on their off the rack Finnish imports. Practice no picnic while they worked the bugs out with further filings, the application of heat.


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06-05-2012, 09:40 AM
  #105
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1) Simply because you got a result does not mean that what you claim actually happened. I race bikes and can do math to figure out my VAM (vertical ascent in meters) which is a way to help figure out how much power I was putting out without having a power meter on my bike. If I come up with a result of 7 watts per kg (Tour de France champion numbers) but I did the math wrong or had a wrong factor (like the distance of the climb) then the 7w/kg did not actually happen. It's simple science you learn in 6th grade.

2) To the guy arguing about hand timing, go look at qualifying lists for track championships. They usually list both hand timed and auto timed qualifying marks and the hand timed ones are always faster. They do this to make up for the error factor by people seeing the line crossed before it actually is, thus stopping the clock early.

3) The difference between a radar reading taken 7 feet from release and 21 feet from release is about 2mph. There is also a reason why, most sports people, prefer not to use measurements from close to the release. That reason being that body movement (and stick in hockey) can give off "ghost" readings and affect the speed measured.

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06-05-2012, 10:30 AM
  #106
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I honestly think the radar gun was taken when Hull was zooming at 25mph before he slapped it so thats included in the 119mph.

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06-05-2012, 06:50 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
That's depressing. It says, "No matter how good you look when you're young or what you do to maintain your fitness, you're still gonna be an out of shape tub when you get older."

Dude's jacked though. They sure don't make em like that anymore. Can you imagine some of today's players being forced to do that daily among other farm chores? That's what's part wrong with the game today. Players of yesteryear were real people with hard backgrounds playing a game because they loved it and realizing it, now most players are spoiled and pampered from the time they're in their teens and they make sure their nails are done nice and purdy before every game. Of course that's a broad brush but generally that's the picture.


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06-05-2012, 07:38 PM
  #108
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another pic ofHull on the farm

[IMG]untitled.jpeg[/IMG]
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06-06-2012, 02:56 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Hackeybuff View Post
I honestly think the radar gun was taken when Hull was zooming at 25mph before he slapped it so thats included in the 119mph.
You might have a point, but I doubt it. If so, I'm fighting my 95 mph speeding ticket because the cops radar must have picked up the speed of the car beside me as I whipped past it.

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03-24-2013, 07:03 PM
  #110
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Most interesting discussion pappyline, BraveCanadian, Killion, quoipourquoi, etc!

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Lloyd Percival was a well known and well respected hockey researcher so I doubt this. At worst for the slap shot he used a different methodology then is used today. Unless someone can come up with some current studies on wrist shots and backhands we have nothing to compare his study with.

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Exactly.

I'm not sure why this is so difficult for people to grasp in the thread.

Agreed. And even then, as with the slapshots, we'd need to know the specific methodologies to be able to compare them 1 to 1.
Sorry I am late gentlemen: but do you, or do you not, believe in Bobby Hull's 119mph? What is the reported velocity of his wristshot? BraveCanada what are your concerns about methodology?

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
...boy theres a Blast from the Past!. Lloyd Percivals Hockey Handbook.
Like the Bible of Hockey for many in Southern Ontario circa 1960's.
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Originally published in 1951. Rejected by the NHL and bought into by the Russians. We have seen the results of that.
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Alexander Ryazantsev's 114mph slapshot?
Regarding hockey shooting and methodology McGill University recently published:
Y Michaud-Paquette, DJ Pearsall, RA Turcotte. Predictors of scoring accuracy: ice hockey wrist shot mechanics. Sports Engineering. February 2009, Volume 11, Issue 2, pp 75-84

What are predicted "maximum" velocities for slap shot, wrist shot, backhand etc?

Hockey coach Ron Johnson in Vancouver BC (www.elitehockeyshooters.com, here is an interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OfWMbdiQ7c) is reported to say -dont quote me- a 95mph wrist shot is possible.

Any thoughts?

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03-24-2013, 07:49 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by stingfan33 View Post
Most interesting discussion pappyline, BraveCanadian, Killion, quoipourquoi, etc!... Sorry I am late gentlemen: but do you, or do you not, believe in Bobby Hull's 119mph? What is the reported velocity of his wristshot? BraveCanada what are your concerns about methodology?...Any thoughts?

Member since 09 & first post? What dat?
... I watched the video with Ron Johnson, interesting stuff, but I didnt actually hear him say anything about shot velocity or speed.... with respect to Hull being clocked by Popular Mechanics's back in the 60's, frankly, I dont believe it as equipment back then was fairly rudimentary & therefore inaccurate, as witness not only Hull @119mph but so too Jean Beliveau's wrist shot measured @105mph. Theres just no way.

Little difference in velocity & speed between a woody & composite, the main difference being "weight" or "heft" of the shot. With a composite, the shot is heavier (though some guys with wood back in the day could really pack a punch with their slapshot). Technological advances in radar over the intervening decades show that todays fastest shots are in the 105 range, averages around 95-100mph, some guy at the KHL All Star Game last year claiming 110+ but likely a stunt, a gimmick. Rigged to give that league claims of superiority over the NHL & everyone else.

As far as velocity on wrist shots, probably most in the 60's to mid-70mph, really good in the 80's range with composites, backhanders far slower, just a lot more deceptive as from a goalies perspective, impossible to determine where it might fly based on the lie of the puck on the blade when reading it, unlike a forehand shot, be it a snap, wrist or slapshot in the split second before the puck leaves the shooters blade. Nuances to reading those 3 types of shots as well. Top secret goalie stuff. Id blab but then Id have to kill you all... The other thing to consider with composites as opposed to woodys is release time, as with the former its a Hell of a lot quicker. Indeed, you really dont see the "Grand Wind-Up's" like we did in days of yore, mostly all shots nowadays flick, snap & wrist shots, short swing wind-ups from the point when slapping, the full-on "slap shot" become a rarer & rarer site in-game.


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03-24-2013, 08:03 PM
  #112
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I'm sure there's a way of measuring the speed of Hull's shot by looking at old videos and doing some calculations. Perhaps do a few different shots and get an average. I believe I remember something like time plus (or minus) distance equals speed or something like that. I'm the last person to do that though. Me no good math.

edit: but now that I think about it, I bet the frame rate on old video wouldn't be high enough to get an accurate reading of time.
Take a player today, with a known speed, and take several clips of him firing his shot from a certain position at what appears to be his best. Then, compare the time it takes for the puck to go from the stick to cross the goalline.

I did the comparison a while back with Bobby Hull against Sheldon Souray, Brett Hull, and Fredrik Modin.

The results were inconclusive. There was a huge degree of subjectivity, as the puck would sometimes "cross the line" between frames. Plus the distance from the net was not 100% exact, players had lateral movement, etc. And just being a frame or so off would hurt the calculation. What I found was that you could say that the players had shot speeds comparable with each other, with Modin being last. Meaning, if you used the harsher measures, Bobby Hull would come in 3rd of fourth, while if you gave Hull the benefit of the doubt, he'd be first.

I should go and dig up the actual numbers...

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03-24-2013, 08:27 PM
  #113
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Take a player today, with a known speed, and take several clips of him firing his shot from a certain position....The results were inconclusive.
No doubt. I dont know how you can expect to conclude anything through film comparisons... like the footage shot by CIA-linked-33rd-Degree-Free-Mason Abraham Zapruder. Shot from 4 separate angles on 35mm. Ding-dang zip-zap Magic Bullet Theory that still doesnt make any sense after studying it frame X frame for 50yrs.

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03-24-2013, 08:47 PM
  #114
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Zero chance he shot 119 mph's and double zero for 96mph on a back hand. Not a chance.

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03-24-2013, 10:32 PM
  #115
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I don't believe a 96 mph backhand for a second.

Wouldn't there be...any anecdotes about how strong it was?


Hilarious.

When it comes to this record, in my head I have always imagined that it got started something like this:



"Hull shoots and scores!!! Hawks win!!"



The next day, at the office:



"Gee whiz fellas. Did you and the gang get to see our boys beat up the Leafs in the ice hockey game last night? That Bobby Hull must've had a slapshot that was at least 120 miles per hour!! No foolin!!"

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03-24-2013, 10:44 PM
  #116
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Ya, Leafs were cautious & 'D' first throughout the Smythe yrs & 60's, boringly so many would claim. Horton was a bit of an anomaly, a "rushing defenceman" as a Junior & with the Pittsburgh Hornets, early in his career with the Leafs until getting hit awkwardly (but cleanly) followed by a difficult rehab.

Didnt play that style again as he couldnt, physically, while his vision impairment is the stuff of legend, his defence partners "calling out instructions" in using the angles to play the man, disregarding the puck altogether, yelling directions as to where to headman the puck. Wore heavy horn rims with Coke bottle lenses, impracticable on the ice as theyd fog up, dangerous.

There are a lot of stories about the 06 era "hero's" that remain unknown or barely mentioned. Gordie Howe for example was Dyslexic, yet on the ice, a genuis, ambidextrous. Orr could "snap", full blown psycho capable of all kinds of mayhem had he not been held back on several occasions by his team mates. Brewer turtled when challenged early in his career, earning the enmity of team mates & opposition players alike as he played dirty and had quite the mouth on him....
Pretty sure he didn't wear those when he played.

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03-24-2013, 11:07 PM
  #117
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Pretty sure he didn't wear those when he played.
Heavens no. Didnt wear them on the ice. Experimented
with contact lenses apparently, found them uncomfortable.

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03-25-2013, 09:06 PM
  #118
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I don't know about the 118mph shot, but I will say one thing I personally believe Hull would have the hardest shot in the game today.

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03-25-2013, 11:10 PM
  #119
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I don't know about the 118mph shot, but I will say one thing I personally believe Hull would have the hardest shot in the game today.
The only thing I can think of that might, and I do mean "might" explain a 118mph slapshot are those crazy Banana Blade Curves, since outlawed. Flight dynamics of a puck being absolutely nailed by someone who really knows what their doing with the kind of power & speed Hull had... it might be possible. I dont know. Youd need a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, Ballistics. The full curve's, well, the puck just absolutely defied the laws of gravity in flight and actually seemed to gain speed as it travelled through time & space. Unlike a normal slapshot, whereby the goalie can read where that pucks headed in the split second that the blade strikes the puck including reading where the shooters hands are on his stick & flex on the shaft, how far down his head is towards the ice and a few other tricks of the trade, just forget all that when facing a Banana Curve & Pray it doesnt hit you right between the eyes. ... In fact, your lucky if you see it at all before it arrives on your doorstep & it sure aint where a normal shot would wind up being based on the same blade to puck contact using a straighter blade. The trajectory, well, Its like the pucks on Acid. And the weight or heft behind the thing, its like getting body slammed by a Brahma Bull. If you catch it, possible broken fingers and the Mother of All Stings that your left with for days. You used to feel those suckers right through your pads, even your Blocker like you had no pads on at all. So its possible, Id still say pretty improbable that 118mph's been hit, but without replicating the exact same conditions, exact same sticks, same everything right down to tube skates etc... only thing that might explain it if Popular Mechanics equipment was accurate would be those crazy curves.


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03-26-2013, 02:04 PM
  #120
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I guess another thing I would think is that Hull was strong everywhere. He was built like a Greek god. He also had strength in the right spots - his hips. He was a farm boy and lugging the hay around like it was a toy would give you those strong hips which I think is the driving force behind a hard shot.

A good comparable is Mickey Mantle. Coincidentally another farm boy from the same era. I don't think anyone to this day had the raw power that Mantle had. The only knock on him was that he didn't take care of himself and burned the candle out. But in his prime, he hit longer homeruns than anyone else.

This could very well be the case with Hull. It isn't out of the realm of possibility. I think Hull and Mantle are two players that are the exception to the rule when it comes to "players getting stronger".

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07-29-2013, 01:42 PM
  #121
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Lafleur was a "mule"? (6'0 - 175lbs)

Most players today (if not all) are on a weight lifting regimen. The players of Hull's era, as a general rule, were not. I guarantee you their million dollar mansions have weight rooms that get used a lot - even in the off seasons when players of the past were driving trucks or selling real estate instead.
George St Pierre is 5'10 at 170 and I would consider him a hard working fit athlete. In other words, many would claim he was a mule. A guy who just can be counted on to work all day. Just fights through everything. Size has little to do with it.

Bigger guys usually cant get as low and thus lack in "power" yet you may still considerthem strong

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07-29-2013, 01:52 PM
  #122
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Did he perhaps slap it on his off side for the 96Mph?

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07-29-2013, 02:22 PM
  #123
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I guess another thing I would think is that Hull was strong everywhere. He was built like a Greek god. He also had strength in the right spots - his hips. He was a farm boy and lugging the hay around like it was a toy would give you those strong hips which I think is the driving force behind a hard shot.

A good comparable is Mickey Mantle. Coincidentally another farm boy from the same era. I don't think anyone to this day had the raw power that Mantle had. The only knock on him was that he didn't take care of himself and burned the candle out. But in his prime, he hit longer homeruns than anyone else.

This could very well be the case with Hull. It isn't out of the realm of possibility. I think Hull and Mantle are two players that are the exception to the rule when it comes to "players getting stronger".
Plus Howe and Horton. Both of them would be strong compared to even the strong player's today. Also while a powerlifting player today might be able to lift more weight in a squat or bench press or something, then Howe or Hull, is any of that extra strength really beneficial on the ice after you get past the immense natural core strength? Hull, Mantle, Bo Jackson, Howe were freaks of nature. Heck so was Gretzky. He had the ability to recover from exertion far better then almost anyone ever measured. He could be completely spent and totally recover for another shift in 30-40 seconds. Lance Armstrong may be a cheat but so are the other cyclists... And Armstrong may not be tall or big but he is a freak for having a heart 1/3rd bigger then it should be for his size.

My point is natural ability trumps new techniques and equipment advancement. I think the radar was obviously inaccurate measuring Hull's shot. Hull probably could fire it 100-105 like the best of the best do now.

Al MacInnis still had the best (and hardest) point shot in the NHL at 40 when he was using a wood stick and everyone else using the new composites. Plus MacInnis used his slapper in the game... Probably topping his best measured skill competition slapshots many times in actual games.

I would not be that surprised if TODAY a 50ish MacInnis went on the ice for a skill competition and topped 100 mph. MacInnis has the me mechanically perfect shot. Like Hull. Anyone else could practice for a zillion years and never top a MacInnis or Hull slapper.

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07-29-2013, 02:28 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by stingfan33 View Post
Sorry I am late gentlemen: but do you, or do you not, believe in Bobby Hull's 119mph? What is the reported velocity of his wristshot? BraveCanada what are your concerns about methodology?
I don't have concerns with the methodology.

I have concerns with the difference in the methodology used to capture Hull's results and the ones from today at the all star game for example.

People quickly discount that Hull could possibly have taken a 119mph slapshot but they (we as far as I know) don't know how it was even measured exactly.

However, because Zdeno Chara today can't shoot harder than Hull did.. people make the judgement that it was "impossible".

It may be that the equipment was not as accurate and Hull did not in fact shoot that hard. It may be that he was taking a shot while in motion (in contrast the the all star games where the puck is stationary) and did in fact shoot that hard with that assistance.

Maybe he was just a super strong farm boy with a heavy wooden stick who blasted a puck like no one ever has since..

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07-29-2013, 02:33 PM
  #125
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George St Pierre is 5'10 at 170 and I would consider him a hard working fit athlete. In other words, many would claim he was a mule. A guy who just can be counted on to work all day. Just fights through everything. Size has little to do with it.

Bigger guys usually cant get as low and thus lack in "power" yet you may still considerthem strong
i hate this thread and don't want to dive into this, but oh well -

Georges fights at 170, he doesn't weigh 170, except when he has dieted and cut the water from out of his muscles. He is around 190, in elite fighting shape (witness his wrestling with Georges Laraque if you want to see the difference between 45 second shape and MMA shape)

I am going to confidently speculate, and I am confident that everybody on here is going to be all over this, that Lafleur's 175 pounds are nowhere similar to GSP's 190lbs, in muscle density, or even in fat%. Were GSP 6'0, he would likely weigh something like 205, which is in keeping with most 'mules' Witness Forsberg or Denis Potvin. Additionally, 5'10'rs, when built up perfectly, are usually around GSP's weight - 185-190. Witness Bobby Hull and Pavel Bure.

This is not a knock on Lafleur, he is just a rangy athlete, like a Nick Diaz, for instance.

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