HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Winnipeg Jets
Notices

2012 Draft Discussion - Part II

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-20-2012, 09:17 AM
  #301
bigplay41
BIG MEECH
 
bigplay41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,305
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to bigplay41
Haha this Mikhail Grigorenko situation reminds me of Miguel Tejada a few years ago.

bigplay41 is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:22 AM
  #302
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,139
vCash: 50
I know people HATE, HATE, HATE this kind of talk, but if Lindholm is our guy (not saying he is) I don't see why you wouldn't try to trade the 9th plus whatever it took to get either Washington's or Buffalo's two first round picks.

It's a risk, but there's a good chance he's still there only a few spots down, and you would also get a very good player with the other pick.

Huffer is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:26 AM
  #303
bigplay41
BIG MEECH
 
bigplay41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,305
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to bigplay41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
I know people HATE, HATE, HATE this kind of talk, but if Lindholm is our guy (not saying he is) I don't see why you wouldn't try to trade the 9th plus whatever it took to get either Washington's or Buffalo's two first round picks.

It's a risk, but there's a good chance he's still there only a few spots down, and you would also get a very good player with the other pick.
I dunno mang if Trouba is there at 9 I wouldn't be to trilled to see the Jets move down. We need an intimidating freight train like Trouba on the back end

bigplay41 is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:40 AM
  #304
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,697
vCash: 50
I honestly wasn't aware Trouba was as physical as he is, I'll take that any day. He appears to be a whole lot of nasty.

So long as he isn't just another Colten Teubert. I'd prefer more upside than that of a bottom pairing guy.

__________________
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=43225&dateline=140320  8020
Guerzy is online now  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:41 AM
  #305
Le Golie
...
 
Le Golie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
I am wondering about this as well.

Could someone explain how this "could" happen if it was indeed true? I just don't get it.

His age obviously couldn't have been changed say past 13 or 14 because I am going to guess that at that age he was already pretty good and not under the radar.

So are we thinking that before he was 10 years old that his parents thought, "Hey, little Mikhail is really good. He's much better than all the other kids. Maybe he will be in the NHL someday!! How about we change his age so that he seems younger!! That will make him look better!!"

So his parents took a wild chance to lower his age when he was a kid?

And how would they do that, just all of a sudden say he was 2 years younger? So one year he's playing against 9 year olds, and the next year instead of playing against 10 year olds he's going against 8 year olds?

Ya, no one would notice that right?

I would love to see an explanation of how this could be done. The only way I can think of is to move and forge a bunch of documents and start over as a younger kid. But wouldn't he also need to go back a couple of grades in school? That still doesn't explain to me why his parents would even try that with a young kid, but whatever.
I'm not saying it has happened but it definitely could happen. If a family had the right connections and were willing to move from one part of the country to another, it could be pulled off quite easily. And it wouldn't just help with hockey, a kid would have a lot of advantages in most aspects of life if he were two years older than all his peers.

Without speaking specifically about Grigorenko at all, it is certainly not unheard of. How many Latin baseball players have been accused of this? Anyone remember the Cuban pitcher at the little league world series a few years back? He and his beard were no hitting all the other kids. It was as bad as an Adam Sandler movie plot.

Le Golie is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:41 AM
  #306
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,139
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetNation View Post
I dunno mang if Trouba is there at 9 I wouldn't be to trilled to see the Jets move down. We need an intimidating freight train like Trouba on the back end
I agree. But the premise is that TNSE prefers Lindholm (or someone else over Trouba).

Huffer is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:43 AM
  #307
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,139
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Golie View Post
I'm not saying it has happened but it definitely could happen. If a family had the right connections and were willing to move from one part of the country to another, it could be pulled off quite easily. And it wouldn't just help with hockey, a kid would have a lot of advantages in most aspects of life if he were two years older than all his peers.

Without speaking specifically about Grigorenko at all, it is certainly not unheard of. How many Latin baseball players have been accused of this? Anyone remember the Cuban pitcher at the little league world series a few years back? He and his beard were no hitting all the other kids. It was as bad as an Adam Sandler movie plot.
So you really would have to move around to make it work though right?

That should be easy for reporters to find out. Did his family move around?

Huffer is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:53 AM
  #308
Le Golie
...
 
Le Golie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
So you really would have to move around to make it work though right?

That should be easy for reporters to find out. Did his family move around?
The reason I am highly skeptical is this: Grigorenko is tumbling down lists at an unprecedented rate. From concensus 2nd to mid teens (and falling) in a few months. While his play on the ice wasn't good to close the season, why else would he be falling like this?

Hockey teams and scouts are not stupid. They scrutinize a lot of things. While it is unlikely anyone has absolute proof, they have done some checking to be sure. And there might be something to this story. Nobody is going to publicly make this type of accusation, but if enough evidence is present, it will drastically affect his value as a prospect.

His play alone doesn't justify his tumble down the rankings. Especially when he had mono. That tells me something else, something serious just might be going on.

Le Golie is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:56 AM
  #309
Holden Caulfield
Moderator
Perennial Skeptic
 
Holden Caulfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
I honestly wasn't aware Trouba was as physical as he is, I'll take that any day. He appears to be a whole lot of nasty.

So long as he isn't just another Colten Teubert. I'd prefer more upside than that of a bottom pairing guy.
As a rule, I agree. I'd rather swing for the fences in the 5-15 area and find a complete bust, than take the "safe" guy and get a 3rd pairing/4th line borderline NHLer. Traditionally even the "safe" players are not locks (Lauri Tukonen in 2004 was considered a safe pick and guaranteed to play in the NHL in some role, I was ecstatic when the Kings picked him up at 11 ). Wasn't happy with the Teubert pick at the draft, you don't take guys with bottom pairing upside there.

That being said, I think Trouba has A LOT more potential than a Teubert. Trouba is a very good skater, has a good shot and great hockey sense (all things Teubert lacked). I would not at all be upset with Trouba, he has serious upside as a nasty smart controlled defenseman that can make a nice first pass, and move the puck as well. He lacks "game breaking" ability maybe, but still could be an elite defender (I would argue Weber does not have that much "game breaking" ability as well).

__________________


Holden Caulfield is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:00 AM
  #310
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Golie View Post
The reason I am highly skeptical is this: Grigorenko is tumbling down lists at an unprecedented rate. From concensus 2nd to mid teens (and falling) in a few months. While his play on the ice wasn't good to close the season, why else would he be falling like this?

Hockey teams and scouts are not stupid. They scrutinize a lot of things. While it is unlikely anyone has absolute proof, they have done some checking to be sure. And there might be something to this story. Nobody is going to publicly make this type of accusation, but if enough evidence is present, it will drastically affect his value as a prospect.

His play alone doesn't justify his tumble down the rankings. Especially when he had mono. That tells me something else, something serious just might be going on.
that really does seem absurd. When you consider how much foresight the parents would need to do it at such a young age, not to mention how much work it would be for something that has a very good chance of achieving nothing, I just find it really, REALLY hard to believe.

To be honest, i'm thinking this quote from the scout is being taken out of context. This i just a very VERY outlandish claim to be making. The big difference is compared to some other instances of claims of age faking (china's gymnist, etc) is that those presented single opportunities, where the person in question was generally unscrutanized prior to the big event (for which their age was faked).

Mikhail would have had his age faked far prior to the CHL draft in which he was chosen (as he would have been watched for at least 2 years prior), at which point it would have been a longshot to call anything a guarantee.

I personally find this ridiculously unlikely.

Grind is online now  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:17 AM
  #311
Waldo
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,884
vCash: 500
I like Trouba but he's going to a US College. If he stays till he graduates, that's 4 years. After that it may be 1 or 2 years in the AHL. Also I wonder if he can use the same loophole that Wheeler used that allowed him to become a UFA.

Waldo is online now  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:19 AM
  #312
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,062
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=Waldo;51130099]I like Trouba but he's going to a US College. If he stays till he graduates, that's 4 years. After that it may be 1 or 2 years in the AHL. Also I wonder if he can use the same loophole that Wheeler used that allowed him to become a UFA.[/QUOTE]

i believe he can much like one Justin Schultz...

Grind is online now  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:19 AM
  #313
Waldo
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
that really does seem absurd. When you consider how much foresight the parents would need to do it at such a young age, not to mention how much work it would be for something that has a very good chance of achieving nothing, I just find it really, REALLY hard to believe.

To be honest, i'm thinking this quote from the scout is being taken out of context. This i just a very VERY outlandish claim to be making. The big difference is compared to some other instances of claims of age faking (china's gymnist, etc) is that those presented single opportunities, where the person in question was generally unscrutanized prior to the big event (for which their age was faked).

Mikhail would have had his age faked far prior to the CHL draft in which he was chosen (as he would have been watched for at least 2 years prior), at which point it would have been a longshot to call anything a guarantee.

I personally find this ridiculously unlikely.
It's Russia we're talking about. You can accomplish anything if you can pay the bribe.

Waldo is online now  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:31 AM
  #314
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,139
vCash: 50
Interesting article on the draft and luck...

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../19897566.html

Huffer is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:34 AM
  #315
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,697
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
As a rule, I agree. I'd rather swing for the fences in the 5-15 area and find a complete bust, than take the "safe" guy and get a 3rd pairing/4th line borderline NHLer. Traditionally even the "safe" players are not locks (Lauri Tukonen in 2004 was considered a safe pick and guaranteed to play in the NHL in some role, I was ecstatic when the Kings picked him up at 11 ). Wasn't happy with the Teubert pick at the draft, you don't take guys with bottom pairing upside there.

That being said, I think Trouba has A LOT more potential than a Teubert. Trouba is a very good skater, has a good shot and great hockey sense (all things Teubert lacked). I would not at all be upset with Trouba, he has serious upside as a nasty smart controlled defenseman that can make a nice first pass, and move the puck as well. He lacks "game breaking" ability maybe, but still could be an elite defender (I would argue Weber does not have that much "game breaking" ability as well).
Agree. And thanks for the insight, HC.

Guerzy is online now  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:41 AM
  #316
Le Golie
...
 
Le Golie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waldo View Post
I like Trouba but he's going to a US College. If he stays till he graduates, that's 4 years. After that it may be 1 or 2 years in the AHL. Also I wonder if he can use the same loophole that Wheeler used that allowed him to become a UFA.
I believe the loophole only applies if you leave College early (don't graduate) AND it's four years after your draft. All the players who have used this loophole played one year in the USHL before going to College and then left the NCAA after their junior year. Trouba is going straight to the NCAA and would have to graduate college four years from now, and there are different rules for college graduates. I'm sure it's happened but I can't even think of a top level prospect who actually graduated from College, they usually leave after their second year, third at most.

Besides, the CBA is being renegotiated this summer and I think we'll see this loophole closed.

Le Golie is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:46 AM
  #317
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waldo View Post
It's Russia we're talking about. You can accomplish anything if you can pay the bribe.
My concern isn't wether or not it can be accomplished, it's the planning, foresight, and will to accomplish it.

at 13 everybody and nobody is going to become an NHL player, why would anyone attempt to do something like this, to help "boost your stock" in something that is an extraordinarily long-shot 5 years away?

Grind is online now  
Old
06-20-2012, 11:04 AM
  #318
WJG
Running and Rioting
 
WJG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: Ireland
Posts: 12,738
vCash: 500
Here's my ideal draft:

#9: Mikhail Grigorenko
#39: Tanner Pearson
#70: Adam Pelech
#130: Andrey Makarov
#160: Dustin Hamonic
#190: Gianluca Curcuruto
#210: *Myles Bell

*Not really sure where Myles Bell is ranked overall. I can't even find him in the final rankings. I'm not sure if it's due to his actual play or due to his baggage.


Last edited by WJG: 06-20-2012 at 11:09 AM.
WJG is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 11:04 AM
  #319
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,697
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
My concern isn't wether or not it can be accomplished, it's the planning, foresight, and will to accomplish it.

at 13 everybody and nobody is going to become an NHL player, why would anyone attempt to do something like this, to help "boost your stock" in something that is an extraordinarily long-shot 5 years away?
I tend to agree with you, it is a long-shot, but I wouldn't totally count it out, myself. Perhaps his parents thought, wow, look at Alexander Ovechkin (or whichever player), I want that to be my son, nobody will ever know we're doing this. It will put him ahead of his competition.

I'm with you, Grind, it is indeed a long-shot and it's certainly to the extreme, but I myself wouldn't totally count it out. This is just my take anyway.


Last edited by Guerzy: 06-20-2012 at 11:09 AM.
Guerzy is online now  
Old
06-20-2012, 11:23 AM
  #320
Peter Tagli Eddie
All 3 of them?
 
Peter Tagli Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 401
vCash: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
that really does seem absurd. When you consider how much foresight the parents would need to do it at such a young age, not to mention how much work it would be for something that has a very good chance of achieving nothing, I just find it really, REALLY hard to believe.

To be honest, i'm thinking this quote from the scout is being taken out of context. This i just a very VERY outlandish claim to be making. The big difference is compared to some other instances of claims of age faking (china's gymnist, etc) is that those presented single opportunities, where the person in question was generally unscrutanized prior to the big event (for which their age was faked).

Mikhail would have had his age faked far prior to the CHL draft in which he was chosen (as he would have been watched for at least 2 years prior), at which point it would have been a longshot to call anything a guarantee.

I personally find this ridiculously unlikely.

It might seem ridiculous and unlikely, however the truth is that it's happened before (Latin baseball players, Chinese gymnasts etc...). The fact that there are millions and millions of dollars on the line. People do crazy things for money, and I don't believe that this rumour is out of the realm of possibilities.

Peter Tagli Eddie is online now  
Old
06-20-2012, 12:03 PM
  #321
BomberJets
Registered User
 
BomberJets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 17
vCash: 500
Truth is the Jets do not need nor can they use a player that can make a direct impact at the NHL level this year. (That obviously depends on FA signings) They have enough youth in the line up already. They should be looking for 2 years down the road. IMO

BomberJets is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 04:36 PM
  #322
Bob E
Registered User
 
Bob E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Winnerpeg
Posts: 3,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumzan View Post
You're forgetting Lindholm is 6'2" and can add some pounds. I think he'll be a big hitter when he grows into his bigger frame.
I'm not forgetting he's 6'2 (some have him 6'3), but I'm remembering more so the comments that he's more so an offensive guy and a project - on the defensive side, especially in his own end. Sounds a bit like morgan reilly or buff (to a degree), but along those lines.

Not sure how physical he will be. By all accounts he has shown that side a bit, but isn't consistent. And some worry he won't be a plus player, etc. Due to his defensive game being erratic.

Now trouba isn't without his faults either. I just prefer a guy that will battle you and win battles and hammer you from time-to-time. With some offensive upside. I think the foote or schenn comparisons aren't quite right as he's likely a better offensive prospect - or at least a better skater.

Trouba may be a less offensive "Weber-type", and lindholm might be a bigger, more physical "enstrom-type". Both are valuable. Whichever TNSE values is fine with me. I like Trouba based on the physical needs of playoff hockey. But I think he'll be gone, and lindholm might be our best bet.

Bob E is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 04:39 PM
  #323
Bob E
Registered User
 
Bob E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Winnerpeg
Posts: 3,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
I know people HATE, HATE, HATE this kind of talk, but if Lindholm is our guy (not saying he is) I don't see why you wouldn't try to trade the 9th plus whatever it took to get either Washington's or Buffalo's two first round picks.

It's a risk, but there's a good chance he's still there only a few spots down, and you would also get a very good player with the other pick.
I completely agree with this. If lindholm is the guy they like, and feel they can get him at 12, then try to move down for more picks.

I'm just worried the value to move up to #9 from #12 won't be as much as we would like. I think the players are too equal, teams will stay put and likely get their guy.

Bob E is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 05:26 PM
  #324
anatsu
twitter: @finanatsu
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 786
vCash: 500
My picks would be following:

#9: Jacob Trouba
#39: Tanner Pearson
#70: Devin Shore (highly unlikely, but man can dream)
#130: Joonas Donskoi
#160: Anton Zlobin
#190: Joonas Korpisalo
#210: Edwin Hedberg

anatsu is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 06:04 PM
  #325
drumzan
#WpgJets #SJSharks
 
drumzan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,113
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
So now we not only need to be concerned with the russian factor, we wbetter beaware of the american factor now too?

Were in trouble considerong buf wheeler bogo and dlater are all american...

I'm sorru but thats a ridiculous concern. If jistory shows us anything most players dont put any sort of premium on proximity to their hometown.

This sounds a little biggotish if you ask me
Well, the proof is in the pudding when Big Buff's contract comes up and when Trouba becomes a Jet and his contract is up. I'll bet I'm right.

Go on any of the American team's HF Boards draft prospect talks. They're all high on Kerdiles and Trouba. American's like American's...Canadian's like Canadian's. That's just the way it is.

drumzan is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:15 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.