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Tomas Kaberle

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Old
05-29-2012, 08:44 PM
  #51
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by AvsDet View Post
Im not lying, Quincey has the potentential to be a top 2 d-man. This trade is good because Canadiens get rid of horrible cap hit and get youth.
Quincey was traded not long ago for a 1st rounder...think about it.

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05-29-2012, 08:48 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by bandwagon cole canes View Post
What would you offer Marc-Andre Bergeron? 24 points in 43 games this past season, which is better production than Kaberle's with the Habs.
You forget the habs already had MAB. Holy crap, Kaberle's defensive looks norris worthy compared to MAB.

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05-29-2012, 08:48 PM
  #53
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Maybe a 3rd and a decent prospect, or a 2nd

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05-29-2012, 08:49 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
You forget the habs already had MAB. Holy crap, Kaberle's defensive looks norris worthy compared to MAB.
So you are acknowledging that defensive play and not just mere point totals should be taken into account when judging how much a defenseman is worth? Why don't we do this for Kaberle, then?

Kaberle averaged just 16:41 a game with the Habs despite getting regular powerplay time. This is bottom pairing ice time by anyone's definition, and it's not like Kaberle was buried behind a deep, talented defense. Is a bottom pairing defenseman worth $4.25M if he can contribute on the powerplay?

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05-29-2012, 08:49 PM
  #55
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Anyway, long story short:

2012/02/24 Minnesota Wild traded Marek Zidlicky to the New Jersey Devils for Kurtis Foster, Nick Palmieri, Stephane Veilleux, a second-round draft pick in 2012 and a conditional draft pick in 2013.

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05-29-2012, 08:50 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by bandwagon cole canes View Post
So you are acknowledging that defensive play and not just mere point totals should be taken into account when judging how much a defenseman is worth? Why don't we do this for Kaberle, then?
Who says I didn't?

Based on kaberle's history, offensive game and defensive game, how much is he worth?

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05-29-2012, 08:53 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
True, but 2 poutines, or chicken finger diners for 7 bucks is great.

I'd deal Kabs for Komi and a 3rd.
That's just giving away a 3rd Rounder to see a young player sit in the press box.

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05-29-2012, 08:54 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Anyway, long story short:

2012/02/24 Minnesota Wild traded Marek Zidlicky to the New Jersey Devils for Kurtis Foster, Nick Palmieri, Stephane Veilleux, a second-round draft pick in 2012 and a conditional draft pick in 2013.
Everyone thought that trade was crazy.

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05-29-2012, 08:56 PM
  #59
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Kaberle turned his season around with Montreal, he's worth more than a 4th. If that's all that gets offered, they should just keep him and play him in sheltered minutes and let him put up 40+ points.

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05-29-2012, 08:59 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Anyway, long story short:

2012/02/24 Minnesota Wild traded Marek Zidlicky to the New Jersey Devils for Kurtis Foster, Nick Palmieri, Stephane Veilleux, a second-round draft pick in 2012 and a conditional draft pick in 2013.
Zidlicky, even being in the doghouse in Minnesota, averaged four more minutes per game than Kaberle did in Montreal. In the playoffs Zidlicky is averaging 24 minutes a game, compared to 16 minutes a game for Kaberle in the playoffs last year.

Do you really see a team acquiring Tomas Kaberle to be a top four defenseman, playing 22+ minutes a game? If not, then adjust the value accordingly.

And that trade is a 2nd, a conditional pick and a bag of pucks. None of the players that went Minnesota's way are worth anything.

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05-29-2012, 09:00 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Smif View Post
Everyone thought that trade was crazy.
Also zidlicky gets paid around the same and has less track record than kaberle. Judging from one player alone, there seems to be a lot of craziness.

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05-29-2012, 09:07 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post

Also, it wasn't just a 29-game stretch for Kaberle. He was also piss-poor with Boston. History did play a factor, Kaberle's more recent history rather than his play with the Leafs. Hence JR's comments after the trade of "I should have known better".
Actually Chirelli and Julien both stated they were very happy with his play in the finals.

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05-29-2012, 09:17 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
You forget the habs already had MAB. Holy crap, Kaberle's defensive looks norris worthy compared to MAB.
Maybe a few years ago it did, but I wouldn't say he was that much better this past season. He was terrible defensively and it is why he has become a bottom pairing defenseman who is a PP specialist. When the Canes signed him, it was with the understanding that he'd commit to the Canes offseason conditioning program and he obviously didn't. They also expected at $4M+ that he could play in the top 4 and he couldn't. He was beaten out by a Rookie (Justin Faulk) and a journeyman 5/6 guy (Jay Harrison). Even when Pitkanen was out with a concussion, he couldn't crack the top 4.

Forget about the Cap, the issue with Carolina is real money and paying a powerplay specialist / bottom pairing guy > $4M isn't worth it. I couldn't be happier that Rutherford could rid himself of Kaberle.

I've always liked Kaberle and hopefully this has woken him up and he works his ass off this off-season so that he can regain his form. If not, he'll be a PP specialist who plays less and less ES minutes. If the Habs move him and get a decent pick at the deadline from a team, more power to them, but it still doesn't change that getting rid of Kaberle (who cost them nothing to acquire) was a good move by Rutherford.

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05-29-2012, 09:20 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Actually Chirelli and Julien both stated they were very happy with his play in the finals.
Yes, So happy that they didn't even try to re-sign him and instead traded for Corvo. Actions speak louder than words.

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05-29-2012, 09:32 PM
  #65
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Who wants a 34 year old that wants no part of keeping in shape?

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05-29-2012, 09:36 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Maybe a few years ago it did, but I wouldn't say he was that much better this past season. He was terrible defensively and it is why he has become a bottom pairing defenseman who is a PP specialist. When the Canes signed him, it was with the understanding that he'd commit to the Canes offseason conditioning program and he obviously didn't. They also expected at $4M+ that he could play in the top 4 and he couldn't. He was beaten out by a Rookie (Justin Faulk) and a journeyman 5/6 guy (Jay Harrison). Even when Pitkanen was out with a concussion, he couldn't crack the top 4.

Forget about the Cap, the issue with Carolina is real money and paying a powerplay specialist / bottom pairing guy > $4M isn't worth it. I couldn't be happier that Rutherford could rid himself of Kaberle.

I've always liked Kaberle and hopefully this has woken him up and he works his ass off this off-season so that he can regain his form. If not, he'll be a PP specialist who plays less and less ES minutes. If the Habs move him and get a decent pick at the deadline from a team, more power to them, but it still doesn't change that getting rid of Kaberle (who cost them nothing to acquire) was a good move by Rutherford.
I'd like if he came into camp in better shape too, even if he was in good shape already, doesn't hurt. The fact he wasn't in shape, it will only help him.

As for the bold. I never said it wasn't. You're mistaking me for others. They did what they had to do.

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05-29-2012, 09:37 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Yes, So happy that they didn't even try to re-sign him and instead traded for Corvo. Actions speak louder than words.
Laugh all you want, but thats what they said. Truth is they wouldnt meet his contract demands. Given the number of players they had going RFa or UFA over the next couple of years, getting Corvo for half the price on an expiring contract made more sense with regard to the cap.

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05-29-2012, 09:43 PM
  #68
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Using "pretend statistical extrapolation theory," Kaberle had 40 points. In reality, he had a grand total of 3 goals, 31 points, of which 15 were even strength. Spacek actually scored more goals than Kaberle did.

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05-29-2012, 09:44 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
As for the bold. I never said it wasn't. You're mistaking me for others. They did what they had to do.
Yeah..sorry, I quoted you but was responding in general on that point. Sorry about that.

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05-29-2012, 09:46 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by WWAD View Post
Using "pretend statistical extrapolation theory," Kaberle had 40 points. In reality, he had a grand total of 3 goals, 31 points, of which 15 were even strength. Spacek actually scored more goals than Kaberle did.
In that case, we just look at history. You know, his entire career?

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05-29-2012, 09:56 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Kaberle is fine in Montreal. No need to trade him for spare parts when he actually played his offensive role well for us. He finished as the 40th best defenceman in scoring even after that brutal 29 game stint in Carolina. Pair him with a defensively responsible partner and let him be the PMD he has always been. I would rather see how he does with our team for the time leading up to the trade deadline before considering sending him away for the garbage people will claim he is now supposedly worth due to a bad 29 games in Carolina. A full season in Montreal on the pace he set when he joined us will easily see his value increase significantly.
Yeah right. Teams aren't going to pay much for him after the Boston-Carolina experiments on him. Putting up points in a struggling environment (sounds like years of Toronto, eh!!?) will not fool teams a second time.

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05-29-2012, 10:06 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
In that case, we just look at history. You know, his entire career?
Maybe. But a couple of things come into play IMO.

1) His play has been tailing off over time so you can't automatically assume his entire career is still a valid predictor of future play. You have a guy who was getting 50-60 points a season playing almost 18-20 min. a night even strength a few years ago to a guy who now plays around 13 min a night ES.

Also, his point totals have been dropping with each year.

2) The game has changed and IMO, Kaberle is not as well suited for the style of play the NHL is heading into. Kaberle was in his absolute prime right after the lockout for a few reasons. He was prime age. With the rules post lockout, it was a much more open game that played right into Kaberle's strengths. With the way calls were being made, there was a lot of PP opportunities. In 05/06, every team had more than 400 pp opportunities and many teams had over 500. In 11/12, the highest any team had was 335 which is actually less than teams had the year before the lockout.

I'm not saying Kaberle can't be a 40 point player, but I have concerns that he can be effective other than as a PP specialist. If a team can afford to pay a guy $4.25M for those services, then he's probably worth it. To a budget team? Not so much when you can pay a guys a lot less that might give you 10 less points, but give you much better all around play.

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05-29-2012, 10:19 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Smif View Post
Everyone thought that trade was crazy.
You mean pressbox Franson ?

Fine, a 3rd for him and no Kabby-Komi deal.

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Old
05-30-2012, 04:30 PM
  #74
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OK why don't you tell us what would you offer a 40 pt D-man.
Who plays on the bottom line and doesn't defend? I dunno. Maybe $2 mil or so?

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05-30-2012, 04:58 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by WWAD View Post
Using "pretend statistical extrapolation theory," Kaberle had 40 points. In reality, he had a grand total of 3 goals, 31 points, of which 15 were even strength. Spacek actually scored more goals than Kaberle did.
Using reality he was still the 40th best defenceman in terms of point production in the NHL. He still had more points than every single defenceman on the Hurricanes. Nobody said Kaberle had 40 points, it was simply pointed out that, once he came to Montreal, he returned to a point producing PACE that would put him at 40+ points. Considering that is his normal productivity over the bulk of his career, nobody is using "pretend statistical extrapolation theory," just simple statistics.

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