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Jordan Staal Sweepstakes V2 ‎

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05-30-2012, 06:10 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Now to give more meaning to this, can someone identify the scouting staffs of these teams, and whether there were better players picked after these players.

Scouting staff and team efforts scouting is critical. If we are looking at a poor team without an adequate scouting staff relying strictly on the free/cheap services provide by CS, ISS, et cetera, we could do just as well. If these teams have highly paid, highly respected scouting staffs it is different.

Players subsequently may indicate that at 5th. there were better options that the scouting/selecting team messed up on. You have the option on every player selected after your pick. If you are picking 30th. you don't even have the option of being wrong until the 30th. pick.

Looking at 5th. overall selections without analyzing the options is just half the job.
Scouts don't have the benefit of hindsite, when making their draft picks.

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05-30-2012, 06:12 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Erza Scarlet View Post
who says Galchenyuk or Grigenrenko can't play good defensively in the future?
No one said that. But someone did criticize Staal's point totals, without giving any context at all.

What can we do?

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05-30-2012, 06:12 PM
  #103
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Apparently every pick in the top five is guaranteed number one center, to be slotted in a year after being drafted, ready to be elite player. Granted the comparison to his brother was a little to far. But the stats and my eyes agree that Jordan is a premier two-way center-man in the league, plays the PK excellently, and has scored at a pace to certainly warrant an expectation of being able to take on a number one role. Considering he would be playing with two 70-80 point scorers, he wouldn't need to be the number one point getter, just help his line mates out defensively and use that big body of his to stand up for his line mates.

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05-30-2012, 06:19 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
No one said that. But someone did criticize Staal's point totals, without giving any context at all.

What can we do?
I didn't criticize Staal point totals, it's just the fact that after 6 seasons, he surpassed the point total of 50 once. If Grigs or Grigerenko can score over 50 by at least their 1st 3 years in the league, then it's very possible you have on your way and excellent center.

Everyone here says we have great scouts and it's their turn to go for a boom. If they manage to mess this up, you know there's a large problem with your scouting as we have been unable to do better with your 1st round picks. Morrow who looks like a top 2 defender was drafted after we went after Biggs. According to Morrison, they had Percy higher over Morrow which is laughable right now.

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05-30-2012, 06:19 PM
  #105
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Galchenyuk already plays a good two-way game at 17, skates better/faster, has elite hands/vision/passing ability, and an NHL shot (that with work, will be more deadly than it already is). He plays along the boards, And drives the net hard.

The kid is a total gym rat. There is absolutely no reason to think his potential won't be fulfilled, although there's always the chance.

Bottom line: both Galchenyuk and Grigorenko project to be better hockey players than Jordan Staal, and both are a better fit with Kessel, with their great playmaking skills.

We need a #1. Staal has given zero evidence of being that. I'd rather take my chances on one of the two Russians.

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05-30-2012, 06:20 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
50pts as a career high, and next to zero PP time.... = elite?

Lol

66 point pace over 82 games DOES NOT = #1C

He's a solid #2. Something we have.
Where did I say Staal was already elite?

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05-30-2012, 06:23 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
We're getting roughly a 5% chance #5 becomes an elite player. I'll take 100% of Staal.
Here. "I'll take 100% of Staal".

Suggesting that drafting gives us a 5% chance at elite talent, and Stall is "100%" elite already.

If it can get done without Schenn/Kadri/5th overall, sure. Then you gotta figure out what to do with Grabbo, as he's already a solid 2C, being paid 5mil.

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05-30-2012, 06:24 PM
  #108
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that's just it. He's on the verge of breaking out based on a hunch. You want to give up premium assets for a player because you have a hunch that he'll be a #1 given the opporunity?

when Burke traded 2 firsts for Kessel 3 years ago he did so based on a hunch that the picks would be mid-range. Not top 10 and certainly not top 5. People are still b****ing about that trade and will be for the next 10 years, long after Kessel is no longer a leaf.

If we're giving up top assets like a combination of the 5th overall, Kulemin, Schenn, and/or Kadri I want certainty about the player coming back. I want a can't miss player. Much rather target someone else at that cost.
I don't care about the Kessel trade because to date we still have the best player in the deal by a country mile. If people are still crying about it they need to find something else to do with their spare time.

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05-30-2012, 06:24 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Here. "I'll take 100% of Staal".

Suggesting that drafting gives us a 5% chance at elite talent, and Stall is "100%" elite already.
No you're suggesting this, I said I'll take 100% of Staal in the sense that he steps in our #1C slot as soon as tomorrow are we're instantly a much greater team.


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05-30-2012, 06:25 PM
  #110
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I don't care about the Kessel trade because to date we still have the best player in the deal by a country mile. If people are still crying about it they need to find something else to do with their spare time.
Now this, we can agree on

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05-30-2012, 06:26 PM
  #111
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we're lose that deal in 2-3 years.

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05-30-2012, 06:28 PM
  #112
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No you suggesting this, I said I'll take 100% of Staal.
Without flaming.... Nice backpedal, bud.

Read that post again. Drafting at 5 gives us a 5% chance of getting elite talent, "I'll take 100% of Staal", as if to say, why wager on a 5% chance at elite talent at #5, when we can 100% have it with Staal... You know, implying Staal is 100% elite.

Maybe the English language gives you difficulty, but in that sentence, you called him elite. At least stand by your argument... Hahah.

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05-30-2012, 06:30 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Without flaming.... Nice backpedal, bud.

Read that post again. Drafting at 5 gives us a 5% chance of getting elite talent, I'll take 100% of Stall", as if to say, why wager on a 5% chance at elite talent at #5, when we can 100% have it with Staal... You know implying Staal is 100% elite.

Maybe the English language gives you difficulty, but in that sentence, you called him elite. At least stand by your argument... Hahah.
Again this is what you're assuming I said. You're speculating what you think I meant.

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05-30-2012, 06:32 PM
  #114
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Oh, clarity... So the second part of my post was bang-on then... Haha

The backpedal continues. Maybe there was another way to put what you meant, then. Read that sentence again, because in English, it means nothing but he is 100% elite.

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05-30-2012, 06:33 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Oh, clarity... So the second part of my post was bang-on then... Haha
If you say so.

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05-30-2012, 06:35 PM
  #116
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Personally I would like Burke move Kadri, and heres why. I think Kadri has great hands and good speed but he is too fragile. He does show some grit at times and can be a streaky player but looks like one of those players that will be hurt too much (ala Havlat). I would hope we trade him or Kulemin plus Franson or Schenn (depending if the JVR trade happens, which IMO will) and this yrs 2nd and next yrs 3rd picks for Staal in Pitt.

Lup-Staal-Kess
JVR-Grabo-Frattin
Mac-Bozi-Kadri or Kule (depending who goes)
Brown-Steck-Crabb/Komerov/D'amigo

Gunner-Phaneuf
Schultz-Gard
Liles-Gunner
Franson

Reimer-Vokoun

Trade Army to Van for a 4 or 5th
Lombo to anyone for a 5th or 6th
Connolley for a seast cushion or drink holder hope for a draft pick
Komi to NYI for a Rubiks cube key chain again hoping for a pick

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05-30-2012, 06:38 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Are points the only thing that matter? Staal is a great defensive player, with an ability to kill penalties (and is pretty good at it).

Nobody denies there would be a risk involved, but that risk is true for both scenarios. If we keep the pick and he ends up having the impact of Luke Schenn do we come out ahead?
Yes, the risk should be shared.

Schenn, Kadri, conditional 1st. (2013 if Leafs make playoffs and Staal plays 70 games.)
for
Staal conditional 1st. (1st. to Leafs if Staal doesn't re-sign)

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05-30-2012, 06:39 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Yes, the risk should be shared.

Schenn, Kadri, conditional 1st. (2013 if Leafs make playoffs and Staal plays 70 games.)
for
Staal conditional 1st. (1st. to Leafs if Staal doesn't re-sign)
Works for me, I'd just swap Kadri out with Kulemin personally.

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05-30-2012, 06:40 PM
  #119
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Kulemin + Franson + 2nd (2013) + 4th (2013).

Maximum.

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05-30-2012, 06:40 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Scouts don't have the benefit of hindsite, when making their draft picks.
Does that mean they aren't held accountable for results?

They get paid to predict the outcome/future and if they are failures at that why are they in the business? Maybe they start up their own services when they fail for teams?

You don't need a scouting staff to predict the past.

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05-30-2012, 06:42 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Kulemin + Franson + 2nd (2013) + 4th (2013).

Maximum.
Yep I see it that way too. It is a fair deal in my eyes also.

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05-30-2012, 06:43 PM
  #122
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Nobody in this thread has said Staal is an elite players. To say they have is a plain lie.

I honestly think Kulimen and the 5th overall would do it.

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05-30-2012, 06:44 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Kulemin + Franson + 2nd (2013) + 4th (2013).

Maximum.
Pittsburgh doesn't touch this.

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05-30-2012, 06:45 PM
  #124
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Pittsburgh doesn't touch this.
Good. Lol.

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05-30-2012, 06:46 PM
  #125
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Good. Lol.
lolz

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