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Who else has gone the Schultz route?

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Old
05-31-2012, 09:10 AM
  #1
Doyle
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Who else has gone the Schultz route?

I know we have a Schultz thread, but this topic isn't 100 percent about him. Last year we saw Jason Gregoire and Blake Kessel leave the Isles organization and Tim Erixon force his way out of Calgary.

A few years ago, Blake Wheeler was a much bigger story. How many others have circumvented the CBA and found free agency/their pick of teams?

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05-31-2012, 09:20 AM
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CREW99AW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
I know we have a Schultz thread, but this topic isn't 100 percent about him. Last year we saw Jason Gregoire and Blake Kessel leave the Isles organization and Tim Erixon force his way out of Calgary.

A few years ago, Blake Wheeler was a much bigger story. How many others have circumvented the CBA and found free agency/their pick of teams?
Gregoire in particular pissed me off.Weeks before leaving , he made the statement that the Isles organiztion had treated him first class.

I'm told this clause protects players,keeps teams from owning their rights too long.I want to see the cba change this clause:force those players to re-enter the nhl draft.

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05-31-2012, 09:29 AM
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ThatGuy22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
I know we have a Schultz thread, but this topic isn't 100 percent about him. Last year we saw Jason Gregoire and Blake Kessel leave the Isles organization and Tim Erixon force his way out of Calgary.

A few years ago, Blake Wheeler was a much bigger story. How many others have circumvented the CBA and found free agency/their pick of teams?
They are not circumventing the CBA. They are doing what the CBA allows them to do, and what any one of us would do if given the chance. Sign with the team of your choice.

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05-31-2012, 09:32 AM
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ThatGuy22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
I know we have a Schultz thread, but this topic isn't 100 percent about him. Last year we saw Jason Gregoire and Blake Kessel leave the Isles organization and Tim Erixon force his way out of Calgary.

A few years ago, Blake Wheeler was a much bigger story. How many others have circumvented the CBA and found free agency/their pick of teams?
Also Tim Erixon is a different story as he would have re-entered the draft if he did not sign. He just didn't want to play in Calgary, and was willing to go back in the draft in hopes of getting drafted by somewhere he liked better unless he was traded.

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05-31-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Gregoire in particular pissed me off.Weeks before leaving , he made the statement that the Isles organiztion had treated him first class.

I'm told this clause protects players,keeps teams from owning their rights too long.I want to see the cba change this clause:force those players to re-enter the nhl draft.
Guys like Wheeler and Gregoire are to old to re-enter the draft.

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05-31-2012, 09:57 AM
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Vagrant
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Mike Van Ryn pretty much invented a move under the old CBA as a loophole. He went from Michigan to Sarnia to get out of his obligation to the New Jersey Devils and signed with the St. Louis Blues.

R.J. Umberger left Ohio State early with the intention of signing with the Canucks, but found himself unable to reach terms with the Canucks and sat out an entire year of hockey. He signed with the Flyers upon gaining his UFA status.

Jack Johnson gave every intention to Carolina brass that he didn't want to be here, but he was traded before the whole thing blew up to epic proportions.

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05-31-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Gregoire in particular pissed me off.Weeks before leaving , he made the statement that the Isles organiztion had treated him first class.

I'm told this clause protects players,keeps teams from owning their rights too long.I want to see the cba change this clause:force those players to re-enter the nhl draft.
for the NCAA guys I'd be in favour of some compensation pick from the team they sign with. So whoever signs Schultz would have to give some sort of pick to Anahiem. If a team doesn't want to sign a player then no compensation is awarded, the league would definitely need to think how about the rule is worded so you don't get teams pretending to sign players just so they get a shot at a compensatory pick.

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05-31-2012, 10:06 AM
  #8
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
for the NCAA guys I'd be in favour of some compensation pick from the team they sign with. So whoever signs Schultz would have to give some sort of pick to Anahiem. If a team doesn't want to sign a player then they wouldn't get any compensation, they'd definitely need to think how about the rule is worded so you don't get teams pretending to sign players just so they get a shot at a compensatory pick.
Maybe establish some kind of qualifying offer rule similar to RFA's? If a team formally offers a college player a contract after he establishes that he is leaving and it isn't accepted by the player, then the team is entitled to a compensation pick.

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05-31-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Mike Van Ryn pretty much invented a move under the old CBA as a loophole. He went from Michigan to Sarnia to get out of his obligation to the New Jersey Devils and signed with the St. Louis Blues.

R.J. Umberger left Ohio State early with the intention of signing with the Canucks, but found himself unable to reach terms with the Canucks and sat out an entire year of hockey. He signed with the Flyers upon gaining his UFA status.

Jack Johnson gave every intention to Carolina brass that he didn't want to be here, but he was traded before the whole thing blew up to epic proportions.
Not sure the Jack Johnson example is accurate. By all accounts, he wasn't ready to leave Michigan yet, and Rutherford was pressuring him to do so. Had nothing to do with an aversion to the organization. Rutherford traded him for immediate help.

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05-31-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Jack Johnson gave every intention to Carolina brass that he didn't want to be here, but he was traded before the whole thing blew up to epic proportions.
This is not a true statement. Jack Johnson's statements at the time was that he wanted one more season at Michigan, and Carolina wanted him to come right away. They traded Jack Johnson a little over a year after he was drafted(one hockey season), He would have had to play three more season's at Michigan at the time he was traded in order to become a UFA.

Jack Johnson was traded because Rutherford was pissed he didn't come after his freshman season, not because of anything to do with this loophole.

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05-31-2012, 10:18 AM
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CREW99AW
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Originally Posted by ocarina View Post
Maybe establish some kind of qualifying offer rule similar to RFA's? If a team formally offers a college player a contract after he establishes that he is leaving and it isn't accepted by the player, then the team is entitled to a compensation pick.
I guess that's about the best, the team losing the player can hope for.It would still suck in a case like Schultz's. He's a bluechip prospect.

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05-31-2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Sanguine View Post
Not sure the Jack Johnson example is accurate. By all accounts, he wasn't ready to leave Michigan yet, and Rutherford was pressuring him to do so. Had nothing to do with an aversion to the organization. Rutherford traded him for immediate help.
It's just company line for both parties, as neither wanted themselves slandered in the process. Rutherford has mentioned privately that he knew that Johnson didn't want to play for us and that the best way to not get hosed on value was to keep that under his hat. Our most respected and well connected beat writer has confirmed this. Johnson was under the advising of his father and his father wanted his son in a larger spotlight. Thus the trade to LA instead of signing with Carolina and having his name on the '06 Cup, he decided to hold out and wait for a trade to be made. Not many Top 3 picks play more than a year of NCAA hockey after being drafted.

But hey, karma has a funny way of settling scores. Johnson was promised to be dressed for a playoff game in '06 for Carolina instead of options like Tverdovsky and he declined thus denying himself an opportunity to win it all. He then signs a 6 year extension with the Kings last offseason and gets traded this year at the deadline right before the Kings storm the playoffs as the 8th seed and put themselves up 1-0 in the Finals. He might be two in the hole as a result of trying to pull the strings of his own career and now finds himself in the veritable dead end road of competitive hockey in Columbus. The hockey gods don't smile too kindly upon that kind of behavior. See also previous mentioned examples of Van Ryn and Lindros.

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05-31-2012, 10:28 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I guess that's about the best, the team losing the player can hope for.It would still suck in a case like Schultz's. He's a bluechip prospect.
This is already partially in place, but only for first round picks. If you lose a first round pick, you get a comp pick in the 2nd round in the same slot you picked the player you lost. In Blake Wheeler's case, Phoneix got the 5th pick in the 2nd round the year after he left. However in this case, the team signing the FA doesn't give up the pick, its just added and everyone else moves down a spot.

Doesn't help Anaheim with Justin Schultz, as he was a second rounder. But its the logical extension to later round picks(maybe top 3 rounds only or something)

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05-31-2012, 10:36 AM
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WreckItRask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
It's just company line for both parties, as neither wanted themselves slandered in the process. Rutherford has mentioned privately that he knew that Johnson didn't want to play for us and that the best way to not get hosed on value was to keep that under his hat. Our most respected and well connected beat writer has confirmed this. Johnson was under the advising of his father and his father wanted his son in a larger spotlight. Thus the trade to LA instead of signing with Carolina and having his name on the '06 Cup, he decided to hold out and wait for a trade to be made. Not many Top 3 picks play more than a year of NCAA hockey after being drafted.

But hey, karma has a funny way of settling scores. Johnson was promised to be dressed for a playoff game in '06 for Carolina instead of options like Tverdovsky and he declined thus denying himself an opportunity to win it all. He then signs a 6 year extension with the Kings last offseason and gets traded this year at the deadline right before the Kings storm the playoffs as the 8th seed and put themselves up 1-0 in the Finals. He might be two in the hole as a result of trying to pull the strings of his own career and now finds himself in the veritable dead end road of competitive hockey in Columbus. The hockey gods don't smile too kindly upon that kind of behavior. See also previous mentioned examples of Van Ryn and Lindros.
First of all, you sound angry...like Jack Johnson personally spited you.

Second of all, had Johnson signed with LA immediately after supposedly "orchestrating" his way out of Carolina, then I'd believe the conspiracy theory. But he didn't. He publicly maintained that he wanted to return to Michigan for another year, got traded to LA, and then returned to Michigan. I'm not naive enough to think that Johnson was torn up about being traded from Carolina, but if you're going to accuse a guy of demanding a trade, you better have some actual evidence beyond hearsay and private conversations. Mind you, I don't have a dog in this fight, and in fact, I'm not the biggest Jack Johnson fan either. But you need evidence in this case, and you don't have any.


Quote:
"We just felt that we're getting a very good NHL defenseman in Tim Gleason," Rutherford said. "He's still a young guy, he still has an upside, and both of those players will come in and be with us now, instead of waiting for the development of Jack Johnson, who in my opinion is going to be a very, very good, if not great, NHL player, but probably not for another three to four years.

"Everybody has decisions to make. They wanted to spend another year in school. I think that, in his best interests, for his development, that he should be playing pro now. He's ready to do that. The sooner he starts playing pro, the sooner he starts to develop into a real good NHL player," he said.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2607458

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Old
05-31-2012, 10:45 AM
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Fair enough. If you wish to dismiss it as hearsay then you're more than entitled to that. I just named an example. There are more to hockey stories than what hits the print.

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05-31-2012, 11:01 AM
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Billy Sweatt, was a 2007 Blackhawks pick who didn't sign..Chicago moved his rights to Toronto, still didn't sign, and became a UFA and signed with Vancouver.

He has 2 NHL games under his belt.

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05-31-2012, 11:15 AM
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Billy Sweatt, was a 2007 Blackhawks pick who didn't sign..Chicago moved his rights to Toronto, still didn't sign, and became a UFA and signed with Vancouver.

He has 2 NHL games under his belt.
Always thought this was questionable. Doesn't sign with one of the teams he'd have a chance to sign with, to sign with one of the deepest teams in the league. Was it to play with his brother? Because didn't Lee just retire?

Anyways, Jarret Stoll also comes to mind with the Flames/Oilers.

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05-31-2012, 01:49 PM
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Ludvig Rensfeldt might be doing this right now with the Hawks, though he won't become a UFA he'll just re-enter the draft. He was taken 35th overall in 2010 and it doesn't make any sense why Chicago wouldn't sign him.. but, here we are on the 31st and he's still not inked to a contract.

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05-31-2012, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Ludvig Rensfeldt might be doing this right now with the Hawks, though he won't become a UFA he'll just re-enter the draft. He was taken 35th overall in 2010 and it doesn't make any sense why Chicago wouldn't sign him.. but, here we are on the 31st and he's still not inked to a contract.
Sure it does.
He's not that good and they don't think he'll become much of an NHL player.

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05-31-2012, 02:00 PM
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Regarding the Jack Johnson talk in this thread: People need to understand this is coming solely from Vagrant, aka Caniacforever, aka the person who spreads disinformation on account of being the most ******** person on this site that his favorite team couldn’t understand Jack Johnson just wanted to play college hockey. LA allowed him to do just that, Carolina didn’t. Vagrant has since spent most of his time in denial, bad mouthing Jack Johnson and putting the fault on him instead of his favorite franchise in a pathological sort of way.

In other words, don't take him seriously on that subject. I hope Carolina doesn't draft Jacob Trouba, because it could turn out similarly as he has similar college aspirations as Jack.

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05-31-2012, 02:01 PM
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Before the NCAA/NHL tweaked the eligibility rules, NCAA bound players had to wait an extra year before entering the draft. By today's rules, Parise/Vanek would have been in the 2002 Draft rather than 2003.

A few players took advantage of a loophole caused by the old rule. Since many were drafted at 19, a college player could leave for the CHL and become a free agent at 21.

Off the top of my head, the first guy to exploit the loophole was Ben Clymer who was drafted 27th overall in 1997. Memory is fuzzy, but I believe he landed a relatively lucrative free agent contract from Tampa (USA Today has his 2001 salary at 925K: http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda...yer/Ben-Clymer). 925K was a higher salary than Brendan Morrow who was taken a few spots ahead of Clymer in 1997.

Mike Van Ryn followed Clymer's lead and became a free agent in 2000. In 1998, the Devils took Van Ryn and Scott Gomez with the last two picks in the first round. Gomez's contract was 650K/700K. Van Ryn ended up signing with St. Louis for somewhere around a million per season.

Mike Comrie threatened to do the same thing, but used it as leverage to get a good deal with Edmonton.

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05-31-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konk View Post
Regarding the Jack Johnson talk in this thread: People need to understand this is coming solely from Vagrant, aka Caniacforever, aka the person who spreads disinformation on account of being the most ******** person on this site that his favorite team couldnít understand Jack Johnson just wanted to play college hockey. LA allowed him to do just that, Carolina didnít. Vagrant has since spent most of his time in denial, bad mouthing Jack Johnson and putting the fault on him instead of his favorite franchise in a pathological sort of way.

In other words, don't take him seriously on that subject. I hope Carolina doesn't draft Jacob Trouba, because it could turn out similarly as he has similar college aspirations as Jack.
I honestly didn't know Vagrant's posting history at all when I replied, but it seems obvious that there's some personal agenda going on against Jack Johnson there. Again, I'm not the biggest Jack Johnson fan, but I will continue to take him at his word that he wanted another at Michigan unless some concrete evidence comes out to the contrary...why?...because he stayed at Michigan for another season AFTER getting traded to LA. Had he bolted Michigan the minute the trade went down then I'd be a bit more suspicious, but his actions support his words in this case.

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05-31-2012, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
I know we have a Schultz thread, but this topic isn't 100 percent about him. Last year we saw Jason Gregoire and Blake Kessel leave the Isles organization and Tim Erixon force his way out of Calgary.
The situations are a bit different, Gregoire and Kessel both became UFAs free to sign anywhere(much like Schultz will this year) while if Erixon wasn't traded he would have re-entered the draft

It should be pointed out next season the Islanders have a player Anders Lee, who if the rules remain the same will be eligible to become a UFA like Schultz

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05-31-2012, 02:26 PM
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I hope Carolina doesn't draft Jacob Trouba, because it could turn out similarly as he has similar college aspirations as Jack.
It's false to assume this is an issue/trend with Carolina in general. They have drafted quite a few college players in the early rounds in recent years and this type of thing has only happened with Johnson.

Dalpe, McBain, Faulk, Dumolin, Alt, Biega all have gone off to play college as much as they wanted and so far, no issues. Alt and Biega are still in college and McBain, Dalpe, Faulk and Dumoulin have all since signed professional contracts with Carolina.

I'm not trying to defend Rutherford in his handling of Johnson and/or defend Johnson in his approach (I'll stay out of that), just pointing out that Carolina hasn't had issues with most of their college draft picks and I doubt they would with Trouba if they picked him.

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05-31-2012, 03:11 PM
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HockeySensible
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Sure it does.
He's not that good and they don't think he'll become much of an NHL player.
He was a high 2nd round pick who was dominant in Sweden's junior leagues and just finished a year off in the OHL. It absolutely doesn't make sense for Chicago not to sign him from their perspective. He's not a finished product yet, but he has the potential to be a top-9 player in the NHL.

You can look at his numbers in the OHL and say they weren't impressive.. and that's fine but I watched quite a bit of Sarnia this year and it's not like they really worked well as a team either.

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