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Old
05-31-2012, 11:48 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I believe Sutter had that option this year did he not?
I don't think so, who did he bring in???

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06-01-2012, 12:06 AM
  #102
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^ I don't believe he did bring anyone in. Unless it was his idea to bring in hartsburg and if that was the case it was more of a reason to fire sutter.

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06-01-2012, 12:21 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Noori View Post
Edmonton started from scratch, zilch, zero. We have pieces pieces we can trade to accelerate the process and veterans in place to guide the rookies. It's not a guarantee of a winning team but what is much more of a guarantee is that this core, if kept together, will continue to produce the exact same results. The other guarantee is that Iginla and Kiprusoff will not be able to maintain their high level of play for the next five years. Changes will have to be made.

I'm simply proposing we go into a rebuild on our terms instead of falling into one like Edmonton. Approaching it with a plan instead of attempting to fail every year should yield faster and better results.
Oilers traded Penner, Cogs, Cole (IIR), Staios, Moreau, and a few others if I remember correctly. So they weren't given their assets for free. I agree we'll need a new core, and I agree there's no guarantee that Iginla and Kipper will maintain for five years, maybe even three years. Hell it's expected (from me anyways). So I too want a new core quick.

I can respect your perspective of choosing a rebuild, but that's simply not possible. Who chooses it? An ownership who has fans on the edge of their seat chasing a playoff spot every April. I'm a company man that saw our sales guys give Oilers tickets away to lower employees because nobody with a suit wants to spend their evenings watching losing games in March. It's even embarrasing to offer the tickets to prospective or respected business people.

I too can approach a new core with a plan. Baerschi, Backlund, Brodie, Irving, and maybe Reinhart and few others getting mentored by great leaders like Giordano, Iginla, and Kipper. Include some 2012 and 2013 picks down the road and you should have a new core if development and drafting is done right. I'm not guaranteeing a winning team either, but you said yourself that we'll be in that 10th spot mix this year. The pattern suggests we'll be in that mix. And there's no hurry, as we still have Iginla and Kipper on the books to find out if we're still at it.

If we're hugging 14th spot prior to the deadline, then sure, trade some core players. I was even proposing that we trade Moss, Stempniak, Sarich and Hannan this deadline, regardless of the season's results. But I certainly don't want to see a full-out, teenage team. I don't think it's good for our organization and player development to have that in this league. And perhaps even having at least Iginla retire here would benefit this organization in more ways than what his trade return might be.


Last edited by MarkGio: 06-01-2012 at 12:26 AM.
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06-01-2012, 12:38 AM
  #104
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I hope one of Iginla, Kipper or Gio is traded. Regardless of who our coach is we are not a contending team. At least one major fundamental trade needs to be made, 3 seasons with the same core and same result proves this to be true. I don't know who should go, that all depends on the return and what the experts closest to the situation feel is the right direction for the team.

Going to into next season with the additions of Cervenka and Baertschi, and maybe one or 2 mediocre FA signings is not going to make this team a contender. I could care less about the Kings run, we are no where near the caliber of team they are. Our division was also a joke compared to theirs.

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06-01-2012, 12:54 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I believe Sutter had that option this year did he not?
He did. He brought in Hartsburgh and kept Lowry.

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06-01-2012, 01:00 AM
  #106
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Just finally watched the presser, don't get me wrong I'm really happy with the hiring of Hartley but man is Feaster ever a lawyer/spin doctor. I laughed when Feaster said he wanted to thank Conroy and Weisbrod for all their help and 'hockey' questions they asked the candidates during the interviews. Feaster knows that Calgary fans are intelligent in regards to the game, and he knows that we are going to be critical of this hiring because of his personal relationship with Hartley. The lawyer in him totally threw that comment out there to legitimize the hiring.

I just don't think it was necessary, Hartley's resume and words speak for themselves. I am confident that we got the best available coach for our position. If anything, kudos to Feaster for having the relationship he did with Hartley to get him to Calgary over a team like Montreal. Personally, I could just do without the salesmanship of it all.

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06-01-2012, 01:59 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Fleury14 View Post
eliteprospects.com lists no relation, and they're pretty good at tht.

on another side note, Patrick was actually a top Penguins prospect once upon a time after leading the WJC in scoring one year with most goals and points, which is pretty unheard of for a swiss player to do.

His play kind of stalled after that and he never came across the pond.
thanks for the info


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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
I just found out that Hartley is the god father for Feaster's kid. That, and the 3 year deal makes me wonder about this deal. First Sutter got the job because of nepotism, and now Hartely gets the gig questionably too.

We should be giving the job to the best candidate possible, and not give it to the guy who rubs shoulders with the higher ups. I hope Feaster has no problem firing this guy if things get messy...
It's well known that Hartley was the godfather of Feaster's kid.

But think about it this way:

If this is nepotism and he got the job purely on his relationship with Feaster (which I don't believe because that would be career suicide IMO) it means that King and the ownership group don't have their fingers in the pie like everyone is suggesting they do.

And if they do have their fingers in the pie, then it appears that they think Hartley is a good hire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noori View Post
I'm talking about good assets. Guys, who somewhere down the line, could end up being game breakers. On that list, only Cervenka qualifies.
Comeau really gets **** on by Flames fans, sure he was snake bitten but he is also scored 41 goals (in 138 games) over the 2 previous seasons. He is much more talented than Flames fans give him credit for, and then once being brought to Calgary we never saw the lack of effort that some Isles fans claimed we would see. Comeau is a talented younger player that IMO could excel under Hartley and could regain his 20 goal form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
He did. He brought in Hartsburgh and kept Lowry.
he also brought in Malarchuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVW View Post
Just finally watched the presser, don't get me wrong I'm really happy with the hiring of Hartley but man is Feaster ever a lawyer/spin doctor. I laughed when Feaster said he wanted to thank Conroy and Weisbrod for all their help and 'hockey' questions they asked the candidates during the interviews. Feaster knows that Calgary fans are intelligent in regards to the game, and he knows that we are going to be critical of this hiring because of his personal relationship with Hartley. The lawyer in him totally threw that comment out there to legitimize the hiring.

I just don't think it was necessary, Hartley's resume and words speak for themselves. I am confident that we got the best available coach for our position. If anything, kudos to Feaster for having the relationship he did with Hartley to get him to Calgary over a team like Montreal. Personally, I could just do without the salesmanship of it all.
His job is to sell though, but I am interested in seeing Conroy and Weisbrod interviewed about this hiring. Especially if Conroy was excited as Feaster says.

I will say this again though, I LOVE THIS HIRING!

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06-01-2012, 02:16 AM
  #108
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Very happy with Hartley, think he can do good things in Calgary.

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06-01-2012, 08:16 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Andrew Walker @fan960walker: Chris Dingman - "Hartley was really hard at times, fourth liners thought there names were french swear words"
That sounds terrifying but I laughed hard at this

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06-01-2012, 08:58 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAMES666 View Post
I don't think so, who did he bring in???
Feaster is not a "hockey guy" and would never tell his coach who he could and couldn't hire he isn't Sutter. He hires people he has full faith in and trust them to do the job.

And last year he brought in Hartsburgh and decided to kept Lowry.

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06-01-2012, 09:17 AM
  #111
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Can't see how anyone can be upset with this hire. We got the best coach, with the best resume to back it up (at least coaches available in the present).

The on-ice results are what matter. But on the surface this is a huge victory for CGY. Think about how pissed MTL fans are. I give huge props to Feaster for getting him here, because it seemed like Hartley was really set on being MTL's bench boss.

Hartley wins wherever he goes. If he can bring this team back to the PO's then I'll be happy.

Getting a deal done this early is great for preperation as well. I like this hiring better than I liked the hiring of Sutter because we got the BCA. Period. I love the fact that Hartley wants to work closely with Ward. Great news!

As far as roster speculation goes. I'm dissapointed, sounds like the core is staying. Again my goal would be to trade Iginla (and maybe Bouwmeester) as his time here has run its coarse and he is starting to run out of gas. We will not be a competing team with him on this roster from what I can tell. But anything can happen, and as usual, I'm still pumped for next year.

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06-01-2012, 09:21 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
Can't see how anyone can be upset with this hire. We got the best coach, with the best resume to back it up (at least coaches available in the present).

The on-ice results are what matter. But on the surface this is a huge victory for CGY. Think about how pissed MTL fans are. I give huge props to Feaster for getting him here, because it seemed like Hartley was really set on being MTL's bench boss.

Hartley wins wherever he goes. If he can bring this team back to the PO's then I'll be happy.

Getting a deal done this early is great for preperation as well. I like this hiring better than I liked the hiring of Sutter because we got the BCA. Period. I love the fact that Hartley wants to work closely with Ward. Great news!

As far as roster speculation goes. I'm dissapointed, sounds like the core is staying. Again my goal would be to trade Iginla (and maybe Bouwmeester) as his time here has run its coarse and he is starting to run out of gas. We will not be a competing team with him on this roster from what I can tell. But anything can happen, and as usual, I'm still pumped for next year.
It would be foolish to bring a coach in to win now and trade away our best players. Given the make up of the team we had two options

#1 New young coach and rebuild

#2 Coach with experience who is ready to win now and keep the team.

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06-01-2012, 09:39 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
It would be foolish to bring a coach in to win now and trade away our best players. Given the make up of the team we had two options

#1 New young coach and rebuild

#2 Coach with experience who is ready to win now and keep the team.
I don't think trading Iggy would cripple this team. If we could get a solid RW replacment (Iginla light) and a near NHL ready prospect, then I think we would be fine. In fact the only player that, if traded, would kill this team would be Kipper IMO.

Think about the STL deal, something like Stewart, Cole, prospect/pick.

Without other deals or signings you go from:

Tanguay-Cammy-Iginla
Cervenka-Stajan-Glencross
Bartschi-Backlund-Nemisz
Bouma-(blank)-Jackman

Bouw-Butler
Gio-Smith
Brodie-Babchuk

Kipper
Irving

To this:

Tanguay-Cammy-Stewart
Cervenka-Stajan-Glencross
Bartschi-Backlund-Nemisz
Bouma-(blank)-Jackman

Bouw-Butler
Gio-Cole
Brodie-Babchuk

Kipper
Irving

Outside of losing some goal totals. I don't see the huge drop that comes from trading Iggy. In fact I think Cole is ready to contribute to a backend now, especially one as dismal as ours. Of course you have to hope that Stewart can rebound, but I believe he can.

Simply put, Iginla is fairly old, and we stand to get less and less from him each year going forward. It would be nice to get some assets for him now, while he has value around the league. I don't think trading Iginla means we are tanking. Major changes are needed (both on paper and culture), and I believe the best way to do that without a roster gutting is to change leadership.

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06-01-2012, 10:54 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I hope one of Iginla, Kipper or Gio is traded. Regardless of who our coach is we are not a contending team. At least one major fundamental trade needs to be made, 3 seasons with the same core and same result proves this to be true. I don't know who should go, that all depends on the return and what the experts closest to the situation feel is the right direction for the team.

Going to into next season with the additions of Cervenka and Baertschi, and maybe one or 2 mediocre FA signings is not going to make this team a contender. I could care less about the Kings run, we are no where near the caliber of team they are. Our division was also a joke compared to theirs.
We've seen a huge change in core personnel. Bourque, Langkow, Reghre, Phaneuf, Tangs, Cammy, and Jokinen have all been cut or left at some point. I doubt we get rid of our three best players.

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06-01-2012, 12:11 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
We've seen a huge change in core personnel. Bourque, Langkow, Reghre, Phaneuf, Tangs, Cammy, and Jokinen have all been cut or left at some point. I doubt we get rid of our three best players.
I wouldn't move all 3, but we need to move at least ONE top player. If we don't, then it will be the same core that failed last season.

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06-01-2012, 12:20 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I wouldn't move all 3, but we need to move at least ONE top player. If we don't, then it will be the same core that failed last season.
I am a firm believer that a teams system can help/hurt as much as the players.

And one thing I saw with this team was a team that would come out of the gate on fire, take a lead and then sit back and let their opponent come to them. Then when the chips were down they were back on their heals. and couldn't get moving forward again.

This IMO was on Sutter, the Devils had the same problems when he was their coach, Hartley will be a guy that will have the players keep pressing on the gas and will encourage them to add onto that lead rather than sit back on it.

This team is very fast when they move their legs, they are also much more talented than people give them credit for. Hartley IMO is an ideal coach for this team and his system (on paper) matches the strengths of our top players

also, expect Feaster to pick up a 4th liner (or bottom pairing defenseman) that can scrap, Hartley isn't just a coach that liket o intimidate his player, he likes to intimidate the opposition too.

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06-01-2012, 12:24 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
I am a firm believer that a teams system can help/hurt as much as the players.

And one thing I saw with this team was a team that would come out of the gate on fire, take a lead and then sit back and let their opponent come to them. Then when the chips were down they were back on their heals. and couldn't get moving forward again.

This IMO was on Sutter, the Devils had the same problems when he was their coach, Hartley will be a guy that will have the players keep pressing on the gas and will encourage them to add onto that lead rather than sit back on it.

This team is very fast when they move their legs, they are also much more talented than people give them credit for. Hartley IMO is an ideal coach for this team and his system (on paper) matches the strengths of our top players

also, expect Feaster to pick up a 4th liner (or bottom pairing defenseman) that can scrap, Hartley isn't just a coach that liket o intimidate his player, he likes to intimidate the opposition too.
Good post.

Sums up my thoughts on the subject well.

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06-01-2012, 02:16 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Noori View Post
Edmonton started from scratch, zilch, zero. We have pieces pieces we can trade to accelerate the process and veterans in place to guide the rookies. It's not a guarantee of a winning team but what is much more of a guarantee is that this core, if kept together, will continue to produce the exact same results. The other guarantee is that Iginla and Kiprusoff will not be able to maintain their high level of play for the next five years. Changes will have to be made.

I'm simply proposing we go into a rebuild on our terms instead of falling into one like Edmonton. Approaching it with a plan instead of attempting to fail every year should yield faster and better results.
Agreed. Keep a couple of quality low trade value vets (Tanguay and Cammaleri) and some of the "younger" vets like Glencross and Giordano. Guys like Iginla, Kipper and potentially Bouwmeester (If he has trade value like some of you think, I'm less sure) could be moved out. Trade impending UFA's that you sign to one year deals for picks and prospects. Edmonton style rebuilds are hit and miss. Sometimes you end up like the Pens or Hawks and sometimes you end up like the Islanders or Blue Jackets. St. Louis and Ottawa have laid out a roadmap I think the Flames would be well served following.

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06-01-2012, 02:22 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
Comeau really gets **** on by Flames fans, sure he was snake bitten but he is also scored 41 goals (in 138 games) over the 2 previous seasons. He is much more talented than Flames fans give him credit for, and then once being brought to Calgary we never saw the lack of effort that some Isles fans claimed we would see. Comeau is a talented younger player that IMO could excel under Hartley and could regain his 20 goal form.
I like Comeau too. He hits hard, plays defense, has speed and has a shot. No question he has to figure out where to be in the offensive zone and needs some more composure with the puck on his stick, but that can be taught/reaquired. I'd like him or Moss back. I prefer Moss as a player, but he's always hurt. Depends on salary expectations for me. I don't want to qualify Comeau at 2.5, but I'd take him in a heartbeat at 1.2-1.5.

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06-01-2012, 02:25 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
I am a firm believer that a teams system can help/hurt as much as the players.

And one thing I saw with this team was a team that would come out of the gate on fire, take a lead and then sit back and let their opponent come to them. Then when the chips were down they were back on their heals. and couldn't get moving forward again.

This IMO was on Sutter, the Devils had the same problems when he was their coach, Hartley will be a guy that will have the players keep pressing on the gas and will encourage them to add onto that lead rather than sit back on it.

This team is very fast when they move their legs, they are also much more talented than people give them credit for. Hartley IMO is an ideal coach for this team and his system (on paper) matches the strengths of our top players

also, expect Feaster to pick up a 4th liner (or bottom pairing defenseman) that can scrap, Hartley isn't just a coach that liket o intimidate his player, he likes to intimidate the opposition too.
Sutter in a nut shell. Spot on Medium Rare

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06-01-2012, 02:28 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
I am a firm believer that a teams system can help/hurt as much as the players.

And one thing I saw with this team was a team that would come out of the gate on fire, take a lead and then sit back and let their opponent come to them. Then when the chips were down they were back on their heals. and couldn't get moving forward again.

This IMO was on Sutter, the Devils had the same problems when he was their coach, Hartley will be a guy that will have the players keep pressing on the gas and will encourage them to add onto that lead rather than sit back on it.

This team is very fast when they move their legs, they are also much more talented than people give them credit for. Hartley IMO is an ideal coach for this team and his system (on paper) matches the strengths of our top players

also, expect Feaster to pick up a 4th liner (or bottom pairing defenseman) that can scrap, Hartley isn't just a coach that liket o intimidate his player, he likes to intimidate the opposition too.
I'm not disagreeing with you because you make a lot of valid points, but there is another side to this. B. Sutter, D. Sutter, Playfair AND Keenan have all commented on the difficulties with coaching this core group of players. If Hartley can get EVERYBODY to buy in, then everything you say will likely become 100% true. If he can't, we will probably finish in the exact same spot as last season.

I, like you am very optimistic with the hiring of Hartley. I think he sounds like a psychologist and an excellent motivator. I HOPE this is the GUY that can FINALLY get thru to our players about playing a team game.

I'm just hoping that the up tempo style of play he is talking about is the right fit for Iginla and Co. If it isn't, and Iggy and the other vets on the team don't buy into it 100% for 82 games, that there will continue to be a division on this team and you cannot be successful with that occurring.

The reason I suggested a trade with one of the big 3, is because I am tired of what I have seen the last 3 seasons. Perhaps, that is a little premature, maybe you are right and Hartley will lead this team in the right direction. I guess I'm not totally convinced that he will be able to accomplish what the 3 previous coaches couldn't.

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06-01-2012, 02:51 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I'm not disagreeing with you because you make a lot of valid points, but there is another side to this. B. Sutter, D. Sutter, Playfair AND Keenan have all commented on the difficulties with coaching this core group of players. If Hartley can get EVERYBODY to buy in, then everything you say will likely become 100% true. If he can't, we will probably finish in the exact same spot as last season.

I, like you am very optimistic with the hiring of Hartley. I think he sounds like a psychologist and an excellent motivator. I HOPE this is the GUY that can FINALLY get thru to our players about playing a team game.

I'm just hoping that the up tempo style of play he is talking about is the right fit for Iginla and Co. If it isn't, and Iggy and the other vets on the team don't buy into it 100% for 82 games, that there will continue to be a division on this team and you cannot be successful with that occurring.

The reason I suggested a trade with one of the big 3, is because I am tired of what I have seen the last 3 seasons. Perhaps, that is a little premature, maybe you are right and Hartley will lead this team in the right direction. I guess I'm not totally convinced that he will be able to accomplish what the 3 previous coaches couldn't.
Bringing up past coaches is useless. And ignoring the obvious sour grapes that Playfair and Keenan have the following is why I think its irrelevant:

Players left from Darryl's time as coach: 3 - Iginla, Kiprusoff & Giordano (who only played 7 games)
Players left from Playfair's time as coach: 4 - Iginla, Kiprusoff, Giordano (he got 1/2 a season under this one) & Moss (also got 1/2 a season)
Players left from Keenan's time as coach: 7 - Iginla, Kiprusoff, Giordano, Moss, Glencross, Sarich & Backlund (1 game)

Now do you really think Iggy & Kipper are the problems? I don't. I also don't think Giordano is. Moss? Doubtful, but he is likely done anyways. Sarich? Doubtful but he is likely done too. Glencross? maybe, but that doesn't explain Darryl & Playfair. So I guess it must be either Backlund or the guys that were the problems are gone.

I am leaning towards guys being gone. There is a reason why guys like Phaneuf, Bourque and Regehr were shipped out. I would wager its because they were the trouble in the room.

I also think Sutter's in the room maybe have been the problem. It sounds like Darryl tried to coach from the pressbox a lot too much and I think Brent lost the room because of the problems with Darryl (if he ever had the room)

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06-01-2012, 03:09 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
Bringing up past coaches is useless. And ignoring the obvious sour grapes that Playfair and Keenan have the following is why I think its irrelevant:

Players left from Darryl's time as coach: 3 - Iginla, Kiprusoff & Giordano (who only played 7 games)
Players left from Playfair's time as coach: 4 - Iginla, Kiprusoff, Giordano (he got 1/2 a season under this one) & Moss (also got 1/2 a season)
Players left from Keenan's time as coach: 7 - Iginla, Kiprusoff, Giordano, Moss, Glencross, Sarich & Backlund (1 game)

Now do you really think Iggy & Kipper are the problems? I don't. I also don't think Giordano is. Moss? Doubtful, but he is likely done anyways. Sarich? Doubtful but he is likely done too. Glencross? maybe, but that doesn't explain Darryl & Playfair. So I guess it must be either Backlund or the guys that were the problems are gone.

I am leaning towards guys being gone. There is a reason why guys like Phaneuf, Bourque and Regehr were shipped out. I would wager its because they were the trouble in the room.

I also think Sutter's in the room maybe have been the problem. It sounds like Darryl tried to coach from the pressbox a lot too much and I think Brent lost the room because of the problems with Darryl (if he ever had the room)
That's where I disagree with you. I do think Iginla is one of the problems. He hasn't been surrounded with enough talent to be able to change his game as he ages like Modano and Yzerman were able. I think he has a legitimate beef there, but also understand the frustration of coaches with him not buying in to their system because it's very apparent to me that he is the one most guilty of not buying in. There are reasons why he doesn't, but it definitely trickles down because of the respect he commands in the room. Ie. If he doesn't buy in, why should I? I agree with both Sutters, Keenan and Playfair that this IS a difficult group to coach and I think Iginla is the reason why.

I understand what he's meant to the city, organization and the fans. But I would like to see him go if we could get a package like the Bruins were offering back for him. I think it's very unlikely that happens, but I'd like to see it all the same.

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06-01-2012, 03:14 PM
  #124
NHLNUT04
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A solid choice for the Calgary Flames. Now, they must start getting younger players.

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06-01-2012, 03:55 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
I don't think trading Iggy would cripple this team. If we could get a solid RW replacment (Iginla light) and a near NHL ready prospect, then I think we would be fine. In fact the only player that, if traded, would kill this team would be Kipper IMO.

Think about the STL deal, something like Stewart, Cole, prospect/pick.

Without other deals or signings you go from:

Tanguay-Cammy-Iginla
Cervenka-Stajan-Glencross
Bartschi-Backlund-Nemisz
Bouma-(blank)-Jackman

Bouw-Butler
Gio-Smith
Brodie-Babchuk

Kipper
Irving

To this:

Tanguay-Cammy-Stewart
Cervenka-Stajan-Glencross
Bartschi-Backlund-Nemisz
Bouma-(blank)-Jackman

Bouw-Butler
Gio-Cole
Brodie-Babchuk

Kipper
Irving

Outside of losing some goal totals. I don't see the huge drop that comes from trading Iggy. In fact I think Cole is ready to contribute to a backend now, especially one as dismal as ours. Of course you have to hope that Stewart can rebound, but I believe he can.

Simply put, Iginla is fairly old, and we stand to get less and less from him each year going forward. It would be nice to get some assets for him now, while he has value around the league. I don't think trading Iginla means we are tanking. Major changes are needed (both on paper and culture), and I believe the best way to do that without a roster gutting is to change leadership.
i imagine jones will fill this in

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