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Old
06-01-2012, 04:16 PM
  #126
King In The North
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A solid choice for the Calgary Flames. Now, they must start getting younger players.
We've been getting them for sure; we need young players who can make a big impact.

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06-01-2012, 04:30 PM
  #127
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That's where I disagree with you. I do think Iginla is one of the problems. He hasn't been surrounded with enough talent to be able to change his game as he ages like Modano and Yzerman were able. I think he has a legitimate beef there, but also understand the frustration of coaches with him not buying in to their system because it's very apparent to me that he is the one most guilty of not buying in. There are reasons why he doesn't, but it definitely trickles down because of the respect he commands in the room. Ie. If he doesn't buy in, why should I? I agree with both Sutters, Keenan and Playfair that this IS a difficult group to coach and I think Iginla is the reason why.

I understand what he's meant to the city, organization and the fans. But I would like to see him go if we could get a package like the Bruins were offering back for him. I think it's very unlikely that happens, but I'd like to see it all the same.
I agree. A huge part of the problem is that Iginla has never really had a great team to work with and, most obvious, no elite talent up the middle.

Being a annual loser is not fun, it wears on you and you get frustrated. Iggy genuinely seems like a great guy, but I'm sure he's sick of being told how to win when outside of 04 we have had minimal success.

He needs to go to a more stable environment, and relieve himself of the burden of always carrying a team on his back. Let him play out his career on a great team, or at least sign with us again if he really wants to come home. The guy deserves to do what he wants I guess, but this team really needs a change, and Iggy will bring in quality assets now while his value still holds.

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06-01-2012, 04:31 PM
  #128
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It would be foolish to bring a coach in to win now and trade away our best players. Given the make up of the team we had two options

#1 New young coach and rebuild

#2 Coach with experience who is ready to win now and keep the team.
Whats with this perception that we need a young coach to coach a young team?

It would serve in the teams best interest to grab a guy with experience, who doesnt need to go through the learning curve the younger players are going through.

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06-01-2012, 04:32 PM
  #129
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i imagine jones will fill this in
probably. But i would prefer they go after a FO specialist. I would't mind keeping him as an extra or a winger.

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06-01-2012, 06:36 PM
  #130
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Whats with this perception that we need a young coach to coach a young team?

It would serve in the teams best interest to grab a guy with experience, who doesnt need to go through the learning curve the younger players are going through.
Sorry I meant young coach/Sutter with a young team as Sutter would have been a fine coach if we were going to rebuild and a young coach to see if he has what it takes to be a coach at this level. I don't think Feaster is looking for someone who has failed several times to be the new voice the youth.

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06-01-2012, 06:39 PM
  #131
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That's where I disagree with you. I do think Iginla is one of the problems. He hasn't been surrounded with enough talent to be able to change his game as he ages like Modano and Yzerman were able. I think he has a legitimate beef there, but also understand the frustration of coaches with him not buying in to their system because it's very apparent to me that he is the one most guilty of not buying in. There are reasons why he doesn't, but it definitely trickles down because of the respect he commands in the room. Ie. If he doesn't buy in, why should I? I agree with both Sutters, Keenan and Playfair that this IS a difficult group to coach and I think Iginla is the reason why.

I understand what he's meant to the city, organization and the fans. But I would like to see him go if we could get a package like the Bruins were offering back for him. I think it's very unlikely that happens, but I'd like to see it all the same.
Outside of the first month when Iginla didn't look right he was very committed to the system in fact was 4th in blocked shots with no pk time among forwards and reduced his give aways to say he wasn't a team player is flat out ********.

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06-01-2012, 06:57 PM
  #132
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To be honest this is a great hire. He's a very up-tempo, 2-3 man forechecking, with a lot of back-checking and physical play.

The problem with Hartley is that he screams at players, and it might give results initially, but it can wear thin over time. Realizing that the window for competing for the Flames is growing shorter, Hartley will have just the right "expiry date" for this club.
Maybe that will wake iggy up in Oct-Dec. Expiry date should also match Iggy kipper etc so may work out we get that coveted 8th spot in the next 2 years . Then Sven and the rest will be ready for the next step and a new coach .

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06-01-2012, 07:21 PM
  #133
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Outside of the first month when Iginla didn't look right he was very committed to the system in fact was 4th in blocked shots with no pk time among forwards and reduced his give aways to say he wasn't a team player is flat out ********.
Iginla was also off the first month of the season because that was essentially his training camp

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06-01-2012, 07:29 PM
  #134
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When people place blame on one player, I can't believe they've ever played hockey. You win as a team and lose as a team. Blaming one person tells me that the fans are so hard up that it's clouded their logic. And not blame just any person, the person who's carried this team on his shoulders every bloody year for the past decade without so much as a frown during post game interviews. A person who's dropped the gloves, burried the pucks, layed the body, took the faceoffs, dished the puck, and almost every thing else a good leader does when his team needs him.

If I coached a team, I would wish ever person played like Iggy. There's a reason why he gets 30+ goals, 30+ assists, >50% faceoffs, leads our team in hits (most years), leads our team in fights, etc., all while playing against the leagues hardest foes and most fierce competitors. It's because he wants to win.

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06-01-2012, 07:52 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
That's where I disagree with you. I do think Iginla is one of the problems. He hasn't been surrounded with enough talent to be able to change his game as he ages like Modano and Yzerman were able. I think he has a legitimate beef there, but also understand the frustration of coaches with him not buying in to their system because it's very apparent to me that he is the one most guilty of not buying in. There are reasons why he doesn't, but it definitely trickles down because of the respect he commands in the room. Ie. If he doesn't buy in, why should I? I agree with both Sutters, Keenan and Playfair that this IS a difficult group to coach and I think Iginla is the reason why.
I agree with the first part of your post; it's the obvious and perhaps the biggest reason why the Flames have only moved past the first round once in the last twenty years.

For the second part however, I disagree, to an extent at least. Recall all those five-six game stretches over the last three years where the team struggled to score despite taking a ton of shots and made every opposing goaltender look like the product of a Roy and Hasek fusion? Yeah, well that was the team (and that includes Iginla) buying in to Sutter's system. It was only after those stretches of tepid play that we'd see Iginla cheat and more and more defensively to create more offensively. Iginla's a competitive guy and he realized that you kind of need to score goals in today's game in order to win. Sutter's system didn't work in Calgary and I think Iginla wasn't oblivious to that fact.

If Iginla stuck with Sutter's system for longer, the only positive outcome would have been Brent likely getting fired sooner and maybe a higher pick in the draft.

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06-01-2012, 09:39 PM
  #136
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If I coached a team, I would wish ever person played like Iggy.
The 5-0-0? Where the outlet pass comes only from our goalie?

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06-01-2012, 10:02 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
When people place blame on one player, I can't believe they've ever played hockey. You win as a team and lose as a team. Blaming one person tells me that the fans are so hard up that it's clouded their logic. And not blame just any person, the person who's carried this team on his shoulders every bloody year for the past decade without so much as a frown during post game interviews. A person who's dropped the gloves, burried the pucks, layed the body, took the faceoffs, dished the puck, and almost every thing else a good leader does when his team needs him.

If I coached a team, I would wish ever person played like Iggy. There's a reason why he gets 30+ goals, 30+ assists, >50% faceoffs, leads our team in hits (most years), leads our team in fights, etc., all while playing against the leagues hardest foes and most fierce competitors. It's because he wants to win.
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
I agree with the first part of your post; it's the obvious and perhaps the biggest reason why the Flames have only moved past the first round once in the last twenty years.

For the second part however, I disagree, to an extent at least. Recall all those five-six game stretches over the last three years where the team struggled to score despite taking a ton of shots and made every opposing goaltender look like the product of a Roy and Hasek fusion? Yeah, well that was the team (and that includes Iginla) buying in to Sutter's system. It was only after those stretches of tepid play that we'd see Iginla cheat and more and more defensively to create more offensively. Iginla's a competitive guy and he realized that you kind of need to score goals in today's game in order to win. Sutter's system didn't work in Calgary and I think Iginla wasn't oblivious to that fact.

If Iginla stuck with Sutter's system for longer, the only positive outcome would have been Brent likely getting fired sooner and maybe a higher pick in the draft.
I agree with a good part of both of these posts...

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06-01-2012, 10:05 PM
  #138
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The 5-0-0? Where the outlet pass comes only from our goalie?
C'mon... That only happened the time when Sutter iced all D-Men on the powerplay...

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06-02-2012, 12:45 AM
  #139
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I agree. A huge part of the problem is that Iginla has never really had a great team to work with and, most obvious, no elite talent up the middle.

Being a annual loser is not fun, it wears on you and you get frustrated. Iggy genuinely seems like a great guy, but I'm sure he's sick of being told how to win when outside of 04 we have had minimal success.

He needs to go to a more stable environment, and relieve himself of the burden of always carrying a team on his back. Let him play out his career on a great team, or at least sign with us again if he really wants to come home. The guy deserves to do what he wants I guess, but this team really needs a change, and Iggy will bring in quality assets now while his value still holds.
I disagree. Not that he doesn't deserve it, but that he needs relief of Calgary. It seems to me that players genuinely like it here. Iginla is always happy, regardless of trade speculation, coaching changes, his buddies getting traded, etc. Besides being a monster on the ice some nights, not a lot seems to cause him to frown. I can see him wanting to retire here.

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06-02-2012, 12:50 AM
  #140
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I like Comeau too. He hits hard, plays defense, has speed and has a shot. No question he has to figure out where to be in the offensive zone and needs some more composure with the puck on his stick, but that can be taught/reaquired. I'd like him or Moss back. I prefer Moss as a player, but he's always hurt. Depends on salary expectations for me. I don't want to qualify Comeau at 2.5, but I'd take him in a heartbeat at 1.2-1.5.
I liked Comeau. And the best thing about him was the fact that he was free. Moss too had his moments when he was healthy.

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06-02-2012, 02:03 AM
  #141
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probably. But i would prefer they go after a FO specialist. I would't mind keeping him as an extra or a winger.
who would you have in mind? and i agree i like jones i didnt watch to many games after December (unfortunately) but what i did see i liked

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06-02-2012, 02:09 AM
  #142
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i think comeau will stay even if its at 2.5, feaster picked him up with the intention of him going back to his old form of 20-20 player. he will probably have a make it or break it year next year

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06-02-2012, 04:21 AM
  #143
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Outside of the first month when Iginla didn't look right he was very committed to the system in fact was 4th in blocked shots with no pk time among forwards and reduced his give aways to say he wasn't a team player is flat out ********.
I completely disagree. So do 3 of his last 4 coaches. Anyways, it's pointless to debate this with people who are satisfied with mediocrity. I tire of hearing how awesome all of our players are when we finish outside the playoffs 3 years in a row. Reality sucks, but at least you can make changes when you recognize it. Burying your head in the sand because of emotional connection is rank stupidity. Anyone who doesn't see Iginla's deficiencies defensively has definitely chosen to bury their head in the sand. Steinberg, Kerr and Mike Rogers who are paid to give objective opinions all agree with me as do his coaches. Glencross, Kipper and Jokinen all exceeded expectations last year. If Iginla and Bouwmeester met your expectations, then where is the problem exactly?

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06-02-2012, 09:39 AM
  #144
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I completely disagree. So do 3 of his last 4 coaches. Anyways, it's pointless to debate this with people who are satisfied with mediocrity. I tire of hearing how awesome all of our players are when we finish outside the playoffs 3 years in a row. Reality sucks, but at least you can make changes when you recognize it. Burying your head in the sand because of emotional connection is rank stupidity. Anyone who doesn't see Iginla's deficiencies defensively has definitely chosen to bury their head in the sand. Steinberg, Kerr and Mike Rogers who are paid to give objective opinions all agree with me as do his coaches. Glencross, Kipper and Jokinen all exceeded expectations last year. If Iginla and Bouwmeester met your expectations, then where is the problem exactly?
I never said that he was the greatest. You called him a liability and that is a lie. He wasn't great defensively but wasn't bad just mediocre. Where was the problem last year? NO ONE CAN SCORE . But I guess I have burried my head in the sand since I don't believe that Iginla should be Superman. Flames fans were so spoiled in his prime years when he literally could do everything now he has lost parts of his defensive game and he is the worst player on the ice

Just because someone disagrees with your opinion doesn't give you any right to insult them.

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06-02-2012, 11:23 AM
  #145
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I completely disagree. So do 3 of his last 4 coaches. Anyways, it's pointless to debate this with people who are satisfied with mediocrity. I tire of hearing how awesome all of our players are when we finish outside the playoffs 3 years in a row. Reality sucks, but at least you can make changes when you recognize it. Burying your head in the sand because of emotional connection is rank stupidity. Anyone who doesn't see Iginla's deficiencies defensively has definitely chosen to bury their head in the sand. Steinberg, Kerr and Mike Rogers who are paid to give objective opinions all agree with me as do his coaches. Glencross, Kipper and Jokinen all exceeded expectations last year. If Iginla and Bouwmeester met your expectations, then where is the problem exactly?
Yeah, nobody has their head in the sand. Everybody recognizes the need for picks, prospects, and youth. We all see the organizational deficiencies. Everybody knew it was time to part from Sutter. Most agreed there was coaching deficiencies. Nobody is saying Iginla is the best player in the league, and nobody is saying that all players met expectations. We all recognize problems in the organization. But when all you do is focus on the negative, then how is that any different from someone who solely focuses on the positive? It's just different coloured sand.

I'll tell you what fan doesn't have emotional connection with the Flames organization: an oilers fan. We're suppose to analyse the team's performance 82 times a year without so much as a hint of emotion? Get real. Don't get all pissy because not everyone agrees with you.

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06-02-2012, 12:09 PM
  #146
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I never said that he was the greatest. You called him a liability and that is a lie. He wasn't great defensively but wasn't bad just mediocre. Where was the problem last year? NO ONE CAN SCORE . But I guess I have burried my head in the sand since I don't believe that Iginla should be Superman. Flames fans were so spoiled in his prime years when he literally could do everything now he has lost parts of his defensive game and he is the worst player on the ice

Just because someone disagrees with your opinion doesn't give you any right to insult them.
I didn't insult anyone. Which of our players was worse defensively than Iginla? I can't think of a single one. We were a below average defensive team. You makes good use of hyperbole. I never said Iginla is the worst player on the ice. I said he's a defensive liability, which he is. Iginla is still pretty physical, wins board battles and for my money is one of the top 3 goal scoring RWers in the game. Hardly "the worst player on the ice." But he is consistently the worst defensive player on the ice. It's why other coaches look to match up top lines against ours now.

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06-02-2012, 12:14 PM
  #147
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Yeah, nobody has their head in the sand. Everybody recognizes the need for picks, prospects, and youth. We all see the organizational deficiencies. Everybody knew it was time to part from Sutter. Most agreed there was coaching deficiencies. Nobody is saying Iginla is the best player in the league, and nobody is saying that all players met expectations. We all recognize problems in the organization. But when all you do is focus on the negative, then how is that any different from someone who solely focuses on the positive? It's just different coloured sand.

I'll tell you what fan doesn't have emotional connection with the Flames organization: an oilers fan. We're suppose to analyse the team's performance 82 times a year without so much as a hint of emotion? Get real. Don't get all pissy because not everyone agrees with you.
I focus on TEAM play. It's why teams like the coyotes who have very little talent make it to the conference finals and why we don't. It wasn't just Brent Sutter's fault. That is such a cop out. When the team played the way he wanted we were successful. When we didn't we weren't. The system wasn't the problem, his inability to get players to buy into it was. Same thing Darryl and Playfair said. Both of them did pretty well with different teams, so will Brent when/if he goes to another team.

I think negatively about 2 of our players. Iginla and Bouwmeester. Both are good players, but both need to be better for us to be a playoff team. Neither had been, so I think they should be moved. Simple as that.

Teams that evaluate players with emotion when discussing the future of their organization are not successful. Yes, you're supposed to cheer for them emotionally, but not make roster moves with your heart. It flabbergasts me that Jokinen can play as well as he did last year, same with Glencross and get no credit and the same people think we should get rid of them, yet apologize constantly for and want to keep JBo.

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06-02-2012, 12:35 PM
  #148
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I didn't insult anyone. Which of our players was worse defensively than Iginla? I can't think of a single one. We were a below average defensive team. You makes good use of hyperbole. I never said Iginla is the worst player on the ice. I said he's a defensive liability, which he is. Iginla is still pretty physical, wins board battles and for my money is one of the top 3 goal scoring RWers in the game. Hardly "the worst player on the ice." But he is consistently the worst defensive player on the ice. It's why other coaches look to match up top lines against ours now.
Holy christ buddy watch the game. I've watch at least 70 games this year and I've seen you pop up during maybe half of them. Go back and read the GDTs before you talk about this team. There's been nights where Brodie is hanging out behind the offensive crease, leaving his partner out to dry. There's been nights where Moss is skating around looking confused. Even Glencross has looked unemotional. Tangs has looked useless some nights. And yes there's been nights where Iginla is slow to get back and dog-****s on the ice, but there's also nights where Iginla is playing a 200ft game. During that stretch of winning games, there was comments on these boards praising Iginla's defensive game. So to call him a defensive liability, tells me you're so emotionally fixated on your own ideas that you can't see reality anymore. I pety you.

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I focus on TEAM play. It's why teams like the coyotes who have very little talent make it to the conference finals and why we don't. It wasn't just Brent Sutter's fault. That is such a cop out. When the team played the way he wanted we were successful. When we didn't we weren't. The system wasn't the problem, his inability to get players to buy into it was. Same thing Darryl and Playfair said. Both of them did pretty well with different teams, so will Brent when/if he goes to another team.

I think negatively about 2 of our players. Iginla and Bouwmeester. Both are good players, but both need to be better for us to be a playoff team. Neither had been, so I think they should be moved. Simple as that.

Teams that evaluate players with emotion when discussing the future of their organization are not successful. Yes, you're supposed to cheer for them emotionally, but not make roster moves with your heart. It flabbergasts me that Jokinen can play as well as he did last year, same with Glencross and get no credit and the same people think we should get rid of them, yet apologize constantly for and want to keep JBo.
Wow. Again, we sucked as a team. Blaming two players when there's 22 on the bench? Play a game of hockey man. You simply can't just watch the game to know about it.

By the way, I dare you to try and quote me where I've said we should trade Jokinen or Glencross. Go read the Jokinen!!! thread.

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06-02-2012, 12:41 PM
  #149
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Holy christ buddy watch the game. I've watch at least 70 games this year and I've seen you pop up during maybe half of them. Go back and read the GDTs before you talk about this team. There's been nights where Brodie is hanging out behind the offensive crease, leaving his partner out to dry. There's been nights where Moss is skating around looking confused. Even Glencross has looked unemotional. Tangs has looked useless some nights. And yes there's been nights where Iginla is slow to get back and dog-****s on the ice, but there's also nights where Iginla is playing a 200ft game. During that stretch of winning games, there was comments on these boards praising Iginla's defensive game. So to call him a defensive liability, tells me you're so emotionally fixated on your own ideas that you can't see reality anymore. I pety you.


Wow. Again, we sucked as a team. Blaming two players when there's 22 on the bench? Play a game of hockey man. You simply can't just watch the game to know about it.

By the way, I dare you to try and quote me where I've said we should trade Jokinen or Glencross. Go read the Jokinen!!! thread.
wait...... Moss was on the ice?

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06-02-2012, 02:15 PM
  #150
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There were many more issues last season with our team other than iggy and bouw, yes this team needs a culture change, but we just took step one of that by hiring a new coach, we should at least give our current core a chance under a new coach, yes it's failed before, but 2 great examples of how a coaching change can effect a team, are playing for the cup right now, look at the devils, oldest team in the league, they were much worse than us last season, with the same players, kovalchuk parise, brodeur, zajac

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