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Lidstrom the first top-20 (skaters) to retire since Bourque?

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:42 AM
  #26
toob
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
As a lifetime Detroit fan, Lidstrom > Yzerman as a player and i personally don't think it's very debatable from a career standpoint.

Many Detroit fans see Yzerman differently because he was their heart and soul leader when the organization returned to relevance. He wore the "C" during Detroit's first Cup in 40+ years and he was simply known as "The Captain."
Yzerman was unquestionably more popular. He might be the most popular athlete in Detroit sports. But when compared to their peers Lidstrom was the better player. Only behind Howe in terms of Red Wings history.

Yzerman's peak years were spectacular, as were his years as a 2-way heart and soul guy. But if you were to compare how many seasons each player spent as a Top 3 or Top 5 player at their position, Lidstrom wins in a landslide. He spent the majority of his career playing the toughest minutes against the best opposition players and still was able to dominate. He was one of the best offensive defencemen during his time, while be the absolute best defensively.

Depsite his magical stick work and mistake free type of game, it was easy to take a player who played as quitely as Lidstrom for granted.
Most Detroit fans would see it differently than the hfboards view however. Yzerman was easily a better player than Lidstrom. This is all disregarding the 'icon' factor as i dont think even those who think Lids was a better player than Stevie wold consider him more meaningful to the franchise or city. In that sense Yzerman has likely surpassed even Howe (who still remains a better player in the eyes of many unlike Lids).

I think it wouldnt be a question if Yzerman was at his best when Lidstrom was but Yzerman peaked before Lidstrom was in the league and his prime ended much before Lidstom entered his. With that even said Yzerman in the later years was still Detroit's best player. By 99ish you did have those saying that Lidstrom was the most valuable (mostly spurred by Yzerman who always deflected praise about him being the man to Lids) but still most in the media, teammates (esp Shanahan and Draper), and fans would say Yzerman was the best... when he was playing all up till the knee died during 02.

But even if you did think that Lids was the man from the late 90s (and those folks were conspicuously silent at the time in face of the Yzerman/Fedorov crowd) exactly how much better was he over Stevie (or Feds who has almost been ignored now tho if you asked in 03 i doubt Lids wouldve been considered better)? Because that wasnt even Yzerman at his best in the first place. Lidstrom grew into a role as franchise D on a good team. All of his prime has been played alongside a deep team with excellent 2 way forwards. Yzerman has had to play in much different (worse) situations. He has had to adapt his game under Demers where he is forced to be a leader and carry the team singlehandedly, under Murray who took away some of his role because the team grew in center depth before anything else, and right around when the team can provide him good wingers and defensemen, injuries and coaching change his role once again. Yet whatever Yzerman has done he has done excellently. His 87-02 is simply a better stretch than Lids' 96-12.

Comparing their placements with respect to position is not a good way to compare who is better. Very different contexts (and think about how many years Yzerman was a top 5 C). Yzerman plays the deepest position and his era saw one of the greatest generations of depth at center. There is no inferential leap to assume that a top 5 D is better than a top 10 C without regard to contextual factors.

Yeah one of the reasons why Lidstrom will never be regarded as a better player than Yzerman by most Detroit fans is the fact that a lot of fans are casual and may not appreciate his D fully but then again ive noticed that many of these same fans overstate Lidstrom's O by naively looking a points that are gotten by playing on a team with 4 lines that can score and while the Fs #s are slashed the D who plays with various lines certainly arent. These are also the fans who consider Lids right behind Orr because of trophy counting so they clearly have a high opinion of him despite not considering him better than Yzerman.

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06-01-2012, 01:07 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by toob View Post
Most Detroit fans would see it differently than the hfboards view however. Yzerman was easily a better player than Lidstrom. This is all disregarding the 'icon' factor as i dont think even those who think Lids was a better player than Stevie wold consider him more meaningful to the franchise or city. In that sense Yzerman has likely surpassed even Howe (who still remains a better player in the eyes of many unlike Lids).

I think it wouldnt be a question if Yzerman was at his best when Lidstrom was but Yzerman peaked before Lidstrom was in the league and his prime ended much before Lidstom entered his. With that even said Yzerman in the later years was still Detroit's best player. By 99ish you did have those saying that Lidstrom was the most valuable (mostly spurred by Yzerman who always deflected praise about him being the man to Lids) but still most in the media, teammates (esp Shanahan and Draper), and fans would say Yzerman was the best... when he was playing all up till the knee died during 02.

But even if you did think that Lids was the man from the late 90s (and those folks were conspicuously silent at the time in face of the Yzerman/Fedorov crowd) exactly how much better was he over Stevie? Because that wasnt even Yzerman at his best in the first place. Lidstrom grew into a role as franchise D on a good team. All of his prime has been played alongside a deep team with excellent 2 way forwards. Yzerman has had to play in much different (worse) situations. He has had to adapt his game under Demers where he is forced to be a leader and carry the team singlehandedly, under Murray who took away some of his role because the team grew in center depth before anything else, and right around when the team can provide him good wingers and defensemen, injuries and coaching change his role once again. Yet whatever Yzerman has done he has done excellently. His 87-02 is simply a better stretch than Lids' 96-12.

Comparing their placements with respect to position is not a good way to compare who is better. Very different contexts (and think about how many years Yzerman was a top 5 C). Yzerman plays the deepest position and his era saw one of the greatest generations of depth at center. There is no inferential leap to assume that a top 5 D is better than a top 10 C without regard to contextual factors.

Yeah one of the reasons why Lidstrom will never be regarded as a better player than Yzerman by most Detroit fans is the fact that a lot of fans are casual and may not appreciate his D fully but then again ive noticed that many of these same fans overstate Lidstrom's O by naively looking a points that are gotten by playing on a team with 4 lines that can score and while the Fs #s are slashed the D who plays with various lines certainly arent. These are also the fans who consider Lids right behind Orr because of trophy counting so they clearly have a high opinion of him despite not considering him better than Yzerman.
Yeah, I pretty much disagree with almost everything that i just skimmed through.

As far as hockey players, Lidstrom > Yzerman.

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06-01-2012, 01:18 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
But if you were to compare how many seasons each player spent as a Top 3 or Top 5 player at their position, Lidstrom wins in a landslide.
Because there was more competition among elite centers than elite defensemen...

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06-01-2012, 01:26 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Ray is a great commentator but maybe it's my BC bias here.

I understand the elgend of Orr and why he is unquestioned at #1 but I'm a huge career guy and simply put I would rather have Lidstrom and his excellent 20 seaosn than Orr and his career which was half that. Orr simply would have to be close to twice as good as Lidstrom to be Number 1 on that simple metric.

Of course I consider many things and understand that my view is contrary to popular thinking and personally I think most people don't even think much about putting Orr at the top (and the context of those Bruin teams and the league at the time) they simply follow conventional wisdom on it and repeat what has always been repeated.
Conventional wisdom? Maybe my people on the history board, but not in general.

The thing with Orr, is that people that watched hockey during the days of Shore, think Orr was better. People who worshipped Harvey surrender to Orr's superiority. Those who watched the ones that came after Orr, Potvin, Coffey, Bourque, and Lidstrom still put Orr at the top.

Even Gretzky doesn't get that treatment.

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06-01-2012, 01:27 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Yeah, I pretty much disagree with almost everything that i just skimmed through.

As far as hockey players, Lidstrom > Yzerman.
not rly sure how you can disagree much with Yzerman having to deal with various different (bad) situations as compared to Lidstrom, or that during the 90s Cup years most would say that Yzerman or Fedorov were the key players, or even that most fans in Detroit will see Yzerman as the better player despite a high view of Lidstrom which did make up the bulk of my post theme but alright

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06-01-2012, 08:23 AM
  #31
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There is arguments for Messier as a top 20 skater , starting with his playoff legacy

Messier's playoff career is just so good.

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06-01-2012, 08:57 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Especially considering that Bourque has somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-7 top end seasons that Lidstrom can't match.
Only 4 to 7? Why not all 20 seasons?

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Any book that doesn't have Orr #1 without question is wrong IMO.
Just this morning Bobby Mac was talking at length where Lidstrom belongs and even he had Orr #1 without question followed by Harvey and Shore. Then, he talked about Bourque, Potvin and Lidstrom and he was having trouble actually putting Lidstrom in front of either of them.
Ray Ferraro, who spoke next had no issue putting Lidstrom behind Bourque and Potvin due to his own experience playing against all 3 of them.
Normally I don't put a lot of stock into what Ray says but it's hard to argue with one of the few guys that actually played against all 3 of them.
Chelios has a different opinion than Ferraro:

Quote:
Former Red Wing Chris Chelios said Lidstrom is the best defenseman to ever play the game.

"I played with Larry Robinson. I played against (Raymond) Bourque. You go even further with Doug Harvey," Chelios said. "But in my opinion there couldn't have been anyone better than Nicklas Lidstrom."
Bowman and Babcock like to use the word "perfect":

Quote:
Red Wings coach Mike Babcock called ex-Detroit coach Scotty Bowman on the way to the rink Thursday to talk about Lidstrom.

"The word (Bowman) used was 'perfect,' that's how I feel about him, too," Babcock said. "What he meant to the organization, just the way he spoke today, he just does things right. He's been a great great player, an even better person.

"Scotty told me this morning the two guys he coached that affected the game the most were Nick Lidstrom and Doug Harvey; they always made the right decision and made no mistakes."
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index...._lidstrom.html

Shanahan chimes in:

Quote:
"I don’t feel like he ever had to take over a game, but he never didn’t have it under his control already," said Shanahan. "I feel like some other defensemen could suddenly take over and be splashy and make a remarkable appearance late in the game, I don’t know that that was Nick, because he was that way from the start to the end." - Brendan Shanahan

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06-01-2012, 09:02 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Ray is a great commentator but maybe it's my BC bias here.

I understand the elgend of Orr and why he is unquestioned at #1 but I'm a huge career guy and simply put I would rather have Lidstrom and his excellent 20 seaosn than Orr and his career which was half that. Orr simply would have to be close to twice as good as Lidstrom to be Number 1 on that simple metric.
Offensively...he was and unless Lidstrom was getting shutouts with no goalie in the net, his defense is not going to make that up.
Here's the thing that always confuses me with your views on career length...Bourque played 22 seasons with 19 of them where he was considered one of the top four D-men in the league.
Lidstrom doesn't even come close to matching that career wise.

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06-01-2012, 09:19 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Only 4 to 7? Why not all 20 seasons?
Hey, you wanna start this debate again, by all means give'r. It went for pages in the last Bourque vs Lidstrom thread and NO ONE could debunk Bourque's 4-7 year superiority.
No matter how you shift Lidstrom's seasons around to match Bourque's, you still end up with a large surplus in Bourque seasons.



Quote:
Chelios has a different opinion than Ferraro:

Bowman and Babcock like to use the word "perfect":

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index...._lidstrom.html

Shanahan chimes in:
All teammates and former coaches. What are the odds that if I dug up comments from Bourque's former teammates and coaches, that I end up with the same for Bourque?

Look, contrary to what you and others may think, I love Lidstrom. I put him ahead of Potvin, which is something 10 years ago, I wouldn't of thought possible.
That said, there is no list I can, in good conscience, put Lidstrom ahead of Bourque on other than on a purely defensive one and even then, not by as much as some like to make out.


Anyway, as far as the actual topic here, I have no issue's with Lidstrom in the top 20 skaters list. There's definitely some substance to that view.

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06-01-2012, 09:39 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Hey, you wanna start this debate again, by all means give'r. It went for pages in the last Bourque vs Lidstrom thread and NO ONE could debunk Bourque's 4-7 year superiority.
No matter how you shift Lidstrom's seasons around to match Bourque's, you still end up with a large surplus in Bourque seasons.
Based on what, point totals? This is where I feel you don't truly understand Lidstrom's game because you probably didn't see enough of him. Always making the right decision on the ice cannot be calculated and he surpasses Bourque in that regard. That is what people who watched his whole career saw and that's an ongoing theme this week with comments around his retirement.

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
All teammates and former coaches. What are the odds that if I dug up comments from Bourque's former teammates and coaches, that I end up with the same for Bourque?

Look, contrary to what you and others may think, I love Lidstrom. I put him ahead of Potvin, which is something 10 years ago, I wouldn't of thought possible.
That said, there is no list I can, in good conscience, put Lidstrom ahead of Bourque on other than on a purely defensive one and even then, not by as much as some like to make out.
I think Chelios is just being honest in his opinion. Why would he bother to specifically mention Robinson and Bourque unless he really believed so? I'd take his opinion over Ray Ferraro any day cause Chelios is another all-time great defenseman. He saw first-hand how special Lidstrom was.

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06-01-2012, 10:30 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Based on what, point totals? This is where I feel you don't truly understand Lidstrom's game because you probably didn't see enough of him. Always making the right decision on the ice cannot be calculated and he surpasses Bourque in that regard. That is what people who watched his whole career saw and that's an ongoing theme this week with comments around his retirement.
That's pretty rich accusing me of not seeing enough of Lidstrom when there is definitely a larger number of people that didn't actually see Bourque in his prime.
How many times times do we see someone state that Lidstrom's defense was far superior to Bourque's? Talk about a gross exaggeration by people that obviously didn't see enough of Bourque to know better eh
All I do know is that the people who saw all of Bourque, saw all of Lidstrom. The reverse is definitely not true.


Quote:
I think Chelios is just being honest in his opinion. Why would he bother to specifically mention Robinson and Bourque unless he really believed so? I'd take his opinion over Ray Ferraro any day cause Chelios is another all-time great defenseman. He saw first-hand how special Lidstrom was.
My point wasn't a slight on Chelly's opinion. It was simply that Chelios, like most teammates, are a little biased to their own.
Like I said earlier, for every quote you find from one of Lidstrom's former teammates and coaches, I could do for Bourque.
Go back to Bourque's retirement in '01 and I absolutely guarantee you we would find the exact same media circus/articles/quotes we are seeing with Lidstrom now.
At least with Ferraro, we have a guy on the outside looking in.
That was my point.


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06-01-2012, 11:46 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
That's pretty rich accusing me of not seeing enough of Lidstrom when there is definitely a larger number of people that didn't actually see Bourque in his prime.
How many times times do we see someone state that Lidstrom's defense was far superior to Bourque's? Talk about a gross exaggeration by people that obviously didn't see enough of Bourque to know better eh
All I do know is that the people who saw all of Bourque, saw all of Lidstrom. The reverse is definitely not true.
I'm a Red Wings fan and I'd estimate I've watched 80% to 90% of Red Wings games since Lidstrom entered the League. I obviously didn't watch nearly as much of Bourque because I'm not a Bruins fan. You are a fan of neither team so I assume you really didn't see that much of either player. I don't think you're in a great position to judge either player because you didn't watch either on a consistent basis. You didn't see "all" of either player.

From what I did see, Lidstrom was on another level defensively than Bourque. In his prime it was extremely rare to see Lidstrom get beat one on one or get caught out of position. That's also why Bowman and Babcock like to toss around the word "perfect" when describing him. While still great, I saw more flaws in Bourque's defensive game. Lidstrom was on another level in that regard and all he did was win win win.

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
My point wasn't a slight on Chelly's opinion. It was simply that Chelios, like most teammates, are a little biased to their own.
Like I said earlier, for every quote you find from one of Lidstrom's former teammates and coaches, I could do for Bourque.
Go back to Bourque's retirement in '01 and I absolutely guarantee you we would find the exact same media circus/articles/quotes we are seeing with Lidstrom now.
At least with Ferraro, we have a guy on the outside looking in.
That was my point.
Again, so it's because Chelios is biased. The fact is that Chelios got to see Lidstrom first hand day after day so, to me, he'd be a better judge than Ferraro who, as you say was "on the outside looking in".

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06-01-2012, 12:17 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
I'm a Red Wings fan and I'd estimate I've watched 80% to 90% of Red Wings games since Lidstrom entered the League. I obviously didn't watch nearly as much of Bourque because I'm not a Bruins fan. You are a fan of neither team so I assume you really didn't see that much of either player. I don't think you're in a great position to judge either player because you didn't watch either on a consistent basis. You didn't see "all" of either player.

From what I did see, Lidstrom was on another level defensively than Bourque. In his prime it was extremely rare to see Lidstrom get beat one on one or get caught out of position. That's also why Bowman and Babcock like to toss around the word "perfect" when describing him. While still great, I saw more flaws in Bourque's defensive game. Lidstrom was on another level in that regard and all he did was win win win.
Being a Habs fan, I guarantee you I saw quite a bit of Bourque, more than I wanted to in fact heh.
And since The Wings are my second favourite team and since my best friend and roommate of 9 years from '95-'04 was a huge Wings fan, I also saw a lot of Lidstrom, also prolly more than I wanted to heh.
What I do know here, is that I saw more of EACH player than you did by the sounds of it.
I have very little non-Habs memorabilia but one such is my white Wings #19 jersey. My only other non-Habs jersey is my '72 Canada jersey.



Quote:
Again, so it's because Chelios is biased. The fact is that Chelios got to see Lidstrom first hand day after day so, to me, he'd be a better judge than Ferraro who, as you say was "on the outside looking in".
Yes, it's because he's biased, I thought I was pretty clear on that and what you're saying is that it makes him a better judge on Lidstrom. Ferraro is a much more neutral judge of all three of them though.


In the end for me, it's real simple.
That for as great as Lidstrom was and has been, Bourque was a little better and for longer.


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06-01-2012, 12:31 PM
  #39
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I've seen them all, Harvey, Bourque, Potvin, Orr, Lidström, Robinson and I'll say Orr is the best of them, Potvin could have been second but since that didnt happen it goes to Lidström.

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06-01-2012, 12:52 PM
  #40
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... you people forget about Scott Neidermeyer. Electric mobility. Mesmerizing speed. Inimitable shiftiness & feints. Like watching a car flicking on the nitro. Surely Scotty belongs in the Top 20 huh?. He'd be a Borque/Lids in-betweeny right there.

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06-01-2012, 12:56 PM
  #41
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In the end for me, it's real simple.
That for as great as Lidstrom was and has been, Bourque was a little better and for longer.
...and that's why Lidstrom has more hardware, Cups and the "winning factor" is completely in his favour. In sports all that matters is results and it's not really that close when comparing these two in that regard. That's why Lidstrom will go down in history as being the better player.

As an aside, Lidstrom played a total of 1,827 NHL games while Bourque played a total of 1,826 NHL games. Can't get any closer than that. I find it fitting that in the end Lidstrom edges out Bourque in games played as well.

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06-01-2012, 01:10 PM
  #42
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...and that's why Lidstrom has more hardware, Cups and the "winning factor" is completely in his favour. In sports all that matters is results and it's not really that close when comparing these two in that regard. That's why Lidstrom will go down in history as being the better player.

As an aside, Lidstrom played a total of 1,827 NHL games while Bourque played a total of 1,826 NHL games. Can't get any closer than that. I find it fitting that in the end Lidstrom edges out Bourque in games played as well.
But did Lidstrom ever run into anyone like Gretzky/Messier's Oilers or Mario's Penguins? Bourque likely has multiple Cups if not for those two teams.

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06-01-2012, 01:14 PM
  #43
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... you people forget about Scott Neidermeyer. Electric mobility. Mesmerizing speed. Inimitable shiftiness & feints. Like watching a car flicking on the nitro. Surely Scotty belongs in the Top 20 huh?. He'd be a Borque/Lids in-betweeny right there.
The Top Defensemen Project at the end of last year ranked him 33rd all-time (and that's just among defensemen, not all skaters). Visit that thread for in depth analysis, but some of the knocks on Niedermayer are: a short time being an elite defenseman (it took him a lot of years to get to that level), for most of his career he was not playing against the other team's best forwards, and not being the go to guy on special teams for a lot of his career (both PK and PP).

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06-01-2012, 01:24 PM
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I take Bourque over Lidstrom, but if you look at the advanced statistics (adjusting for era but not quality of teammates, which does Bourque a disservice), Bourque comes out ahead. Neck and neck with Lidstrom defensively with about 20% more output offensively at ES, with obviously inferior teammates. If you look at impact on team (on/off ice ratio), Bourque is one of the best defensemen of all time, falling behind only Bobby Orr. I'd imagine special teams would be a wash.

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06-01-2012, 02:21 PM
  #45
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Bobby Orr
Doug Harvey
Eddie Shore
Raymond Bourque
Nicklas Lidström

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06-01-2012, 02:26 PM
  #46
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I'd say Bourque and Lidstrom are fairly even defensively, but Bourque took more chances. He did so intelligently though, but for some reason, people like to talk about him as if his offense is all he contributed.

If I wanted a low-scoring game, I'd take Lidstrom and hope for a powerplay. If I wanted to win no matter what, I'd take Bourque and trust him to pinch in when he felt the other team was vulnerable. But don't get me wrong; I'd trust Bourque to protect my lead just as well.

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06-01-2012, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
...and that's why Lidstrom has more hardware, Cups and the "winning factor" is completely in his favour. In sports all that matters is results and it's not really that close when comparing these two in that regard. That's why Lidstrom will go down in history as being the better player.
NO, Lidstrom has more Cup rings because Detroit wanted to win at all costs while Boston wanted to win at no cost.
He has more Norris' because he faced a weaker field that was wildly inconsistent on top of it all.
As soon as Bourque was put in position similar to Lidstrom's, he put a ring on his finger.
As far as the Norris thing goes, as I have said before, Bourque has non-Norris winning seasons that are better than about half of Lidstrom's Norris seasons. None of Lidstrom's non-Norris seasons come close to topping a single one of Bourque's 5 Norris winning seasons.

Bourque always had to play 180 feet for his Boston teams to win. Lidstrom usually only had to play 90 feet for his Detroit teams to win. That tends to happen when there's a list of HOFer's as long as my arm with the payroll of 3 small market teams combined, playing in front of him putting the puck in the net.


Look, this thread isn't even about Lidstrom vs Bourque. It's about whether Lidstrom should be considered among the top 20 skaters ever.
Something I agree with btw but if you want to have another go at just Bourque vs Lidstrom, then post in the thread we had here http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1073379
At the very least, re-read it and see exactly how far your arguments got there.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 06-01-2012 at 03:59 PM.
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06-01-2012, 04:26 PM
  #48
newfy
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LOL at dreamkur putting Forsberg on alist over Yzerman.

For the Yzermna Lidstrom thing I will say this. Lidstrom from an all time stand point is the higher player on the list for sure. The hardware and everything is too hard to ignore, but from a greatest redwing stand point, Yzerman is higher.

Also, Rhieesan I know youre not a huge Lidstrom fan, but to say a guy second all time in Norris trophies cant match another guys 4-7 best seasons is borderline ********.

If Bourque was so great to be clearly ahead of Lidstrom (who has a legit argument for second best all time), he would have won more norrises plain and simple. Yeah the guys he played against might have had better careers as well, but to be undisputed better tha Lidstrom he plain and simple should have won more.

I'm not a huge fan of the better competition in the 80s when there were no defensive systems at all argument, and that seems to be your leg to stand on, maybe Lidstroms competition is more inconsistent because its much harder to stay at the top of the league in a time where players actually train all off season and have the most diverse (nation wise) league the NHL has seen up to this point.

I know youll disagree but Lidstrom winning 7 norrises and you to say he cant touch 7 of Bourques seasons is ********

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06-01-2012, 04:29 PM
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please agree to disagree and get on topic.

please.

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06-01-2012, 04:29 PM
  #50
AndyPipkin
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Where would Sakic rank among forwards/centers and skaters?

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