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Lidstrom the first top-20 (skaters) to retire since Bourque?

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Old
06-02-2012, 11:30 PM
  #101
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
No no, you don't get it.

Scouting is irrelevant. You know that there is an 18-year-old kid in Sweden that is Lidstrom reincarnated. Lidstrom's clone. Same with Bourque, Orr, and Potvin. Given a general situation and team, who do you take first, second, third, and last.



It doesn't matter how Lidstrom looks, you know he has his super-high-end potential. You know that is is likely he will play very well from ages 20-27, be very dominant from ages 28-38, and then still be very good from 38 until retirement. You also know that Orr will be super dominant from 20-28, that Bourque will be from 20-35, etc.

They may get injured, they may have their development stunted horribly, but given what you know, what choice do you make?



Let me put it simply. 20 years of Orr or 20 years of Lidstrom? If you select the latter, I am not sure what game you are watching!.
I already answered your question and yes of course it's 20 years of Orr but what exactly is your point we know that he only played in 8 full or close to full seasons with 4 partial seasons averaging just over 20 games.

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06-02-2012, 11:40 PM
  #102
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Well yes it is the way it usually plays out as most people grow up hearing these things and over time people accept them as truths and don't even really look at the arguments that might say different.

At the end of the day people use their own metric and use it when they want and put it away at other times. If Orr isn't going to knocked off his perch of #1 (in spite of his small number of games % wise comapred to the rest of the greats) what's leaving one of the hands down best playoff performers of all time, and not a half bad regular season guy and international star like Forsberg out of the top 20?

Well the 1st thing out of everyone's mouth when it comes to Forsberg is that he was injured and didn't play enough ect..


Funny how arguments are only brought out selectively though eh?

I'm not taking a swipe at anyone here but it's part of human nature and all of us fall victim to it from time to time myself included.
This is a point that has always aggravated me. I have also often heard the argument that Brodeur is better than Hasek due to career length. There is some grey area in most arguments, and it seems my compatriots will take whichever end of it required to place their idols in the brighter light.

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06-03-2012, 12:09 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Not really sure waht you are talking about.

I won't try to explain why the voters treated Orr one way and didn't treat Potvin the same way since I wasn't there. voters have done strange things over the years and treating these 2 guys so differently, might have something with Orr being 1st as well, is kind of strange if we look at it more closely.

Potvin joined a team that was dead last in the NHL with 30 points 18 behind the 15th place team.

NYI were also 16th in both goals for and against so I have no idea what other 6-8 teams they were like in that season.

In Potvin's rookie season they moved up to 15th place with 56 points, an increase of 26 points with Potvin being the star on that team. they also decreased their GA from 16th to 8th place.

I'm not going to argue that Potvin was the only reason why but he was the biggest reason and he had a larger imapct on that NYI team and their fortunes in his rookie season than Orr had in his.

Well in early 78 Billy Derlago from Vancouver wasn't paying attention and Potvin caught him with one of his famous hip checks and his season was over. Derlago never went on to become the player he was projected to be and Potvin already had a great defensive reputation, well earned by that point.

Take a close look at what both Orr and Potvin did in their 2 1st years, nevermind what voters did look at it yourself without prejudice,and tell me that Potvin didn't have a larger impact on his team.

You will have a very hard time doing so when you look at the 1st 2 seasons of those 2 guys.
If Potvin joined the bruins in 1966, he wouldnt have made any impact on that team. Much easier to make an impact on a team that is as good as 6-8 other teams in that league. I also love how you are using raw point totals to justify Potvin having the better year, yeah scoring didnt increase at all by 1974 right?

In 1968, Boston improved thier rankings by a massive margin, sure the Espo trade had alot to do with that. However, last time I checked, 29 first place votes for the hart means alot, you can try and dismiss it as much as you want, it doesnt matter. Orr won the Norris becaue he dominated games and would have likely finished 2nd or 3rd in hart voting if he plays the full year. Potvin wasnt even considered a very good defensive player in his first few years, this is just another example of someone mixing potvin's offensive and defensive peaks and pretending they happened at the same time. In 1968, Orr was second in plus/minus and won the norris despite only putting up 31 points, its fair to make an educated guess and say he was very dominant on both ends of the ice. You can pretend he was simply an offensive defenseman, your revionism wont change the results. Orr's hart and norris voting in his first 3 years, dwarfs Potvin's.

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06-03-2012, 12:17 AM
  #104
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When Orr is compared to Lidstrom, Bourque, Potvin etc, the lack of longetivity is dismissed because Orr's play in a decent size (700+ games) was well above what the aforementioned players displayed. No matter how much longer they did it.

Yet when Orr gets compared to Gretzky and Lemieux, and sometimes Howe, his short career is relevant, because that trio was as dominant as Orr, except for much longer times.

People who still put Orr as the GOAT, mainly do so, because, like the vast majority see Orr as a clear step above Bourque, Lidstrom, and Potvin (and Morenz, Trottier, Bossy, etc.) and thus dismiss the longetivity argument there, there are some that see Orr as a clear step above Gretzky and Lemieux as well, so they similarily reject the longetivity argument.

Forsberg, in comparison, was dominant to a much lesser degree. He was as dominant a player as Trottier or Jagr, but without nearly the same hardware, longetivity or consistenty (I'd argue that he had maybe 96, then 97, 98, and 2003).

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06-03-2012, 12:32 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
If Potvin joined the bruins in 1966, he wouldnt have made any impact on that team. Much easier to make an impact on a team that is as good as 6-8 other teams in that league. I also love how you are using raw point totals to justify Potvin having the better year, yeah scoring didnt increase at all by 1974 right?

In 1968, Boston improved thier rankings by a massive margin, sure the Espo trade had alot to do with that. However, last time I checked, 29 first place votes for the hart means alot, you can try and dismiss it as much as you want, it doesnt matter. Orr won the Norris becaue he dominated games and would have likely finished 2nd or 3rd in hart voting if he plays the full year. Potvin wasnt even considered a very good defensive player in his first few years, this is just another example of someone mixing potvin's offensive and defensive peaks and pretending they happened at the same time. In 1968, Orr was second in plus/minus and won the norris despite only putting up 31 points, its fair to make an educated guess and say he was very dominant on both ends of the ice. You can pretend he was simply an offensive defenseman, your revionism wont change the results. Orr's hart and norris voting in his first 3 years, dwarfs Potvin's.
I'm fully aware of the voting, but I guess it was too much to ask you to look at both players in their 1st 2 years and their team makeups and the league they played in, ie standings independent of that and come to your own conclusion?

TY for answering

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06-03-2012, 03:03 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I'm fully aware of the voting, but I guess it was too much to ask you to look at both players in their 1st 2 years and their team makeups and the league they played in, ie standings independent of that and come to your own conclusion?

TY for answering
Well the impact on thier teams argument doesnt hold much merit as a comparison, unless you think potvin would have helped that 1966-67 boston bruins team more than Orr did. He would be playing the entire season against teams that are better.

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06-03-2012, 03:23 AM
  #107
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Stevens>Lidstrom

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06-03-2012, 07:27 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Not really sure waht you are talking about.

I won't try to explain why the voters treated Orr one way and didn't treat Potvin the same way since I wasn't there. voters have done strange things over the years and treating these 2 guys so differently, might have something with Orr being 1st as well, is kind of strange if we look at it more closely.

Potvin joined a team that was dead last in the NHL with 30 points 18 behind the 15th place team.

NYI were also 16th in both goals for and against so I have no idea what other 6-8 teams they were like in that season.

In Potvin's rookie season they moved up to 15th place with 56 points, an increase of 26 points with Potvin being the star on that team. they also decreased their GA from 16th to 8th place.

I'm not going to argue that Potvin was the only reason why but he was the biggest reason and he had a larger imapct on that NYI team and their fortunes in his rookie season than Orr had in his.

Well in early 78 Billy Derlago from Vancouver wasn't paying attention and Potvin caught him with one of his famous hip checks and his season was over. Derlago never went on to become the player he was projected to be and Potvin already had a great defensive reputation, well earned by that point.

Take a close look at what both Orr and Potvin did in their 2 1st years, nevermind what voters did look at it yourself without prejudice,and tell me that Potvin didn't have a larger impact on his team.

You will have a very hard time doing so when you look at the 1st 2 seasons of those 2 guys.
I'm confused as to why you feel Orr was treated differently in voting their first two years?
First off, Potvin won the Calder, just like Orr did. So they definitely recognized that Potvin was a standout player.

Second, Orr had friggin 122 points in Potvin's rookie year and Park had an extremely good year with the Rangers. Gee, I wonder why Potvin didn't finish highly in Norris voting
In Potvin's second year, he finished second in Norris voting, only losing to a friggin 135 point Bobby Orr.
In Potvin's third season, he DID win the Norris.

Looks to me that Potvin definitely got his due attention and recognition.
The issue was that Orr was so far above everyone else from day 1, not to mention Orr was just 18, Potvin 20 when they played their first NHL game.

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06-03-2012, 08:41 AM
  #109
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Stevens>Lidstrom
Laughable.

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06-03-2012, 09:02 AM
  #110
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Laughable.
Pronger>Lidstrom too

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06-03-2012, 09:04 AM
  #111
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Pronger>Lidstrom too
These are some really compelling arguments...

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06-03-2012, 09:23 AM
  #112
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These are some really compelling arguments...

Lidstrom is a top 10 defensemen of all time. And a top 20 skater


Last edited by King Forsberg: 11-07-2012 at 10:08 AM. Reason: MOD EDIT
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06-03-2012, 01:50 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Pronger>Lidstrom too
this and the Stevens>Lidstrom are by far the worst thing I've ever seen on the internet and the net can be a pretty frightening place, let me tell you.

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06-03-2012, 04:39 PM
  #114
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Well the impact on thier teams argument doesnt hold much merit as a comparison, unless you think potvin would have helped that 1966-67 boston bruins team more than Orr did. He would be playing the entire season against teams that are better.
you are still avoiding the question or perhaps your avoidance is the answer.

I'm not asking some hypothetical on switching the 2 guys around.

Quite simply looking at Orr and Potvin in their 1st 2 seasons which guy had the most impact on his team considering the makeup of the team and the league.


If your only answer is on how guys voted for Norris and Hart then I guess you can't do it I dunno.

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06-03-2012, 04:45 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I'm confused as to why you feel Orr was treated differently in voting their first two years?
First off, Potvin won the Calder, just like Orr did. So they definitely recognized that Potvin was a standout player.

Second, Orr had friggin 122 points in Potvin's rookie year and Park had an extremely good year with the Rangers. Gee, I wonder why Potvin didn't finish highly in Norris voting
In Potvin's second year, he finished second in Norris voting, only losing to a friggin 135 point Bobby Orr.
In Potvin's third season, he DID win the Norris.

Looks to me that Potvin definitely got his due attention and recognition.

The issue was that Orr was so far above everyone else from day 1, not to mention Orr was just 18, Potvin 20 when they played their first NHL game.
Sure the landscape was different in 66 when Orr broke onto the scene, my point with Ushvinder is that Potvin actually had more impact on his team, and less to work with support wise, than Orr in his 1st 2 seasons and especially their 2nd ones.

And the simple fact is that Potvin brought a nastiness factor to his defense where guys had to keep their heads up and was IMO better defensively than Orr, although it's not a huge gap and might be more a preference in style.

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06-03-2012, 05:40 PM
  #116
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Sure the landscape was different in 66 when Orr broke onto the scene, my point with Ushvinder is that Potvin actually had more impact on his team, and less to work with support wise, than Orr in his 1st 2 seasons and especially their 2nd ones.

And the simple fact is that Potvin brought a nastiness factor to his defense where guys had to keep their heads up and was IMO better defensively than Orr, although it's not a huge gap and might be more a preference in style.
So what you're saying is that Potvin should get more credit for being on weaker teams and having less support? I really don't have an issue with this to be honest.

That Potvin's nastier physical play was more important than Orr's dominant puck possession though? Not really sold on this one. Orr's control of a game offensively and defensively was so incredible and intimidating on an overall level I don't think even Scott Stevens and Potvin playing together could match.


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06-03-2012, 08:17 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
So what you're saying is that Potvin should get more credit for being on weaker teams and having less support? I really don't have an issue with this to be honest.

That Potvin's nastier physical play was more important than Orr's dominant puck possession though? Not really sold on this one. Orr's control of a game offensively and defensively was so incredible and intimidating on an overall level I don't think even Scott Stevens and Potvin playing together could match.
I'm not so sure as to give Potvin more credit but if you look at his value and role on his team (He led his team in scoring in his 1st 4 years on the team, last two with Trottier and the 1st two with not much support), his ascent was every bit as incredible and amazing as Orrs. He didn't control the pace of the game in an offensive way like Orr did but he didn't have the same support on NYI either.

Potvin also has a pretty wierd career line in that he was a totally dominant offensive Dman until his injury in 80 at age 26. (His peak)

In 80 Potvin begins the best 4 year stretch without a Conn Smythe in history IMO but in the regular season his stats slip while league scoring goes up and he should still be in his prime.

He retires in 88 at age 34 still arguably the best player on his NYI team and that very same team takes a big step backwards the following year.

Potvin is also a bit like Marcel Dionne as he once lamented all the attention being given to Orr and not being recognized as much (memory has this around the 77 Canada Cup)

Personally I have Potvin ranked in the top 5 Dmen of all time and a couple of more seasons might have had him higher IMO.

It will be very interesting to see how Detroit does going forward without Lidstrom and if they take a step back does it change peoples views on Lidstrom any with the passage of time?

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06-03-2012, 08:42 PM
  #118
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I'm not so sure as to give Potvin more credit but if you look at his value and role on his team (He led his team in scoring in his 1st 4 years on the team, last two with Trottier and the 1st two with not much support), his ascent was every bit as incredible and amazing as Orrs. He didn't control the pace of the game in an offensive way like Orr did but he didn't have the same support on NYI either.

Potvin also has a pretty wierd career line in that he was a totally dominant offensive Dman until his injury in 80 at age 26. (His peak)

In 80 Potvin begins the best 4 year stretch without a Conn Smythe in history IMO but in the regular season his stats slip while league scoring goes up and he should still be in his prime.

He retires in 88 at age 34 still arguably the best player on his NYI team and that very same team takes a big step backwards the following year.

Potvin is also a bit like Marcel Dionne as he once lamented all the attention being given to Orr and not being recognized as much (memory has this around the 77 Canada Cup)

Personally I have Potvin ranked in the top 5 Dmen of all time and a couple of more seasons might have had him higher IMO.

It will be very interesting to see how Detroit does going forward without Lidstrom and if they take a step back does it change peoples views on Lidstrom any with the passage of time?
Well...Orr and Potvin were only playing at the same time for 2 years and change with Potvin's best seasons coming after Orr had to retire. So I find it doubtful that Potvin's spotlight was diminished by Orr. As far as any similarities to Dionne...Potvin kinda leaves them in dust with his playoff performances. Potvin was good but he wasn't Bobby Orr good and any interview I ever saw or heard from Denis, he knew that, everyone knew that.

Second, and I have to admit, the real point I was trying to confirm from you was how much weight you are giving the team strength/more support argument.
I just find it a little funny how you're so high on it here for a mere year or two between Orr and Potvin but have consistently downplayed an even bigger and much longer disparity of the very same thing between Lidstrom and Bourque.

Comments?


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06-04-2012, 09:46 PM
  #119
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Sure the landscape was different in 66 when Orr broke onto the scene, my point with Ushvinder is that Potvin actually had more impact on his team, and less to work with support wise, than Orr in his 1st 2 seasons and especially their 2nd ones.

And the simple fact is that Potvin brought a nastiness factor to his defense where guys had to keep their heads up and was IMO better defensively than Orr, although it's not a huge gap and might be more a preference in style.
How much did you see of Orr and Potvin in order to reach this conclusion?

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06-04-2012, 09:55 PM
  #120
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Although Orr rates in my top players of all time, I have a hard time rating him higher than some of the more modern defensemen, Lidstrom being a good example.

Orr played in a time where the competitive balance was, arguably, at an all time low. Over the course of his career the NHL tripled in size. Some of his best seasons also coincided with the era of the WHA. Considering that the NHL at that time had yet to benefit from the influx of Europeans that would happen in the later '70's / early 80's (not to mention the former Eastern Bloc players that showed up in the early '90's), he was playing against a lot of guys that would have been AHL fodder in pretty much any other era.

Orr is a top 20 player in my books, but so is Lidstrom. Orr gets points for his sheer dominance, and for the way he changed how defense was played... but I'd put Lidstrom higher for being consistently good/great versus a higher quality opposition.

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06-04-2012, 10:04 PM
  #121
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Although Orr rates in my top players of all time, I have a hard time rating him higher than some of the more modern defensemen, Lidstrom being a good example.

Orr played in a time where the competitive balance was, arguably, at an all time low. Over the course of his career the NHL tripled in size. Some of his best seasons also coincided with the era of the WHA. Considering that the NHL at that time had yet to benefit from the influx of Europeans that would happen in the later '70's / early 80's (not to mention the former Eastern Bloc players that showed up in the early '90's), he was playing against a lot of guys that would have been AHL fodder in pretty much any other era.

Orr is a top 20 player in my books, but so is Lidstrom. Orr gets points for his sheer dominance, and for the way he changed how defense was played... but I'd put Lidstrom higher for being consistently good/great versus a higher quality opposition.
You're going to have a tough time trying to get that book published.

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06-04-2012, 10:23 PM
  #122
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You're going to have a tough time trying to get that book published.
I bet Stan Fischler writes the foreword...

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06-04-2012, 10:51 PM
  #123
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You're going to have a tough time trying to get that book published.
Sorry, "Top 20" was just a response to the OP.

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06-05-2012, 01:22 AM
  #124
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How much did you see of Orr and Potvin in order to reach this conclusion?
I saw more of Potvin than Orr but IMO Orr's best defense was that he had the puck most of the time.

Potvin IMO was a better pure defensive Dman, ie measuring defense but not counting offensive positives if you understand my drift.

I won't even look but am willing to bet that Orr's dominance in the plus/minus department comes more from being on the ice when goals are scored rather than being on the ice for less goals scored against (compared to the league average or some other base line).

It's an opinion that won't get settled anytime soon since we could watch 2 players in all 82 games last season and come up with different conclusions. (Lidstrom and Bourque come to mind)

At the end of the defense isn't easily measurable, although there have been recent improvements in that regard, it still remains a bit of an eye test.

But to my point, Potvin had a reputation with his hip checks but I doubt the "defensive value" of that reputation is measurable in any way.

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06-05-2012, 01:24 AM
  #125
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I bet Stan Fischler writes the foreword...
Man I sure hope that Stan doesn't consider Wayne the best player of all time or else we are going to see this comment quite a bit I'm thinking.

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