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Holzer over Schenn

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Old
05-31-2012, 09:57 PM
  #26
agropop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Ball Hockey View Post
this past season as well.
according to http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=89593
he didn't play last year... like I said, I remember the callups (twice I believe) but he never actually dressed. 10-11, 2 games according to the link.

again, my bad.

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Old
05-31-2012, 10:06 PM
  #27
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I'm really impressed with the reaction this thread has gotten. I thought I was the only one that still had high hopes for him and thought he could rebound. I think he knows that he has a lot to prove this year and he'll be a stalwart for us this year.

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05-31-2012, 10:12 PM
  #28
daethfromabove1979
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i would say anyone is better than schenn.. any leafs fan who thinks schenn is good is delirious

i feel like i'm taking crazy pills, he is so bad, he can barely even hold a stick

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05-31-2012, 10:15 PM
  #29
Rare Jewel
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Schenn definitely has more potential still at this point, But IMO someones has really screwed up his fitness and conditioning. I mean he's got to be playing at least 20lbs over what he should be. A hockey player who's 6'2 shouldn't weight 236lbs.

Until that gets sorted out, He'll still be like the slow and sluggish player we saw most of last season.

As for Holzer, Every Marlie game I've seen he's been solid. I'd have no problem having him as one of the 6 next year. Liles would probably be a natural fit with him.

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Old
05-31-2012, 10:17 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower View Post
I can't beleive how people are giving up fast on Schenn.

We need to keep Schenn, he's the real deal and will be a very solid defenseman.

And OP, you may like Holzer more than Schenn, but Schenn is a better hitter than Holzer and it's not even close.
This


People need to give Schenn time under Randy, a young player can really go in the wrong direction if they are unhappy. Schenn will be fine under the new coaching staff.

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Old
05-31-2012, 10:37 PM
  #31
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HOLY crap people. Luke Schenn is 22 years old and just had a bad season in what could probably be considered the worst defensive system ever implemented in the NHL. Orr, Leetch, Lidstrom, Bourque, Salming, and Coffey wouldnt have been able to play in Wilson's "system".

Give the kid a break. Let him recover his game under a guy whom actually knows defense.

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05-31-2012, 10:43 PM
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I'd prefer to see Holzer play a few NHL games before anointing him better than a recent 5th overall pick, but that's just me.

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05-31-2012, 10:44 PM
  #33
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How is hitting even debatable? One consistently finished top 5 in NHL in hits for D, and the other hasn't even made it here yet.

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05-31-2012, 10:44 PM
  #34
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holzer over schenn?

yes please.

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05-31-2012, 10:47 PM
  #35
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Schenn = 22
Holzer = 24

Assuming the OP is right and Holzer is better NOW, 2 years may tell a completely different story. Schenn has shown the potential and I'm willing to wait.

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05-31-2012, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
How is hitting even debatable? One consistently finished top 5 in NHL in hits for D, and the other hasn't even made it here yet.
Facts?!? They have no place in this discussion!

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05-31-2012, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
Schenn definitely has more potential still at this point, But IMO someones has really screwed up his fitness and conditioning. I mean he's got to be playing at least 20lbs over what he should be. A hockey player who's 6'2 shouldn't weight 236lbs.

Until that gets sorted out, He'll still be like the slow and sluggish player we saw most of last season.

As for Holzer, Every Marlie game I've seen he's been solid. I'd have no problem having him as one of the 6 next year. Liles would probably be a natural fit with him.
How can a player that slow lead D in the NHL in hits? Pick your poison; he will not be able to continue to be physical should he lose weight, his body will break down. His instincts and hockey IQ have never waned, his confidence on the other hand has significantly.

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05-31-2012, 11:02 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
How can a player that slow lead D in the NHL in hits? Pick your poison; he will not be able to continue to be physical should he lose weight, his body will break down. His instincts and hockey IQ have never waned, his confidence on the other hand has significantly.
Not saying he's not one of the best hitters in the games, and I think concerns about his footspeed are overblown, but the stats guys at the ACC are absolutely ridiculous. Last I checked, he had double the hits at home than he did away. It's also the reason his giveaway totals are so high.

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05-31-2012, 11:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
How can a player that slow lead D in the NHL in hits? Pick your poison; he will not be able to continue to be physical should he lose weight, his body will break down. His instincts and hockey IQ have never waned, his confidence on the other hand has significantly.
Personally, I think Wilson really did a number on the kid, his confidence at least with the puck is pretty low. Even during what is universally panned as a bad season, he still hits more than anyone else, he's a unique talent that needs time and patience to round out. I really hope we hold onto him, it's gonna suck watching him find his game somewhere else. The kid should at least get a fresh start/chance with Carlyle if you ask me...

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Old
05-31-2012, 11:10 PM
  #40
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ok here's the thing about Holzer. he is kicking butt in the AHL. he is practically unchallenged there right now. no one beats him. no one can score on the Marlies when he plays. it's remedial for him. when he played pre-season on the Leafs he looked quite natural out there too. if he were to play for the Leafs tomorrow he would fit right in. Schenn on the other hand would not look like a confident defenseman in the AHL. he would look rather average. yeah he might be a little tougher, but he still wouldn't be able to play a positional game. he still wouldn't be able to make that first pass. he still wouldn't make that great defensive play. in the NHL Schenn looks like he doesn't belong on most nights. "out of place" would be an understatement. he can't make that first pass. he doesn't make that great defensive play.

Holzer without a doubt is the better player in that role.

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05-31-2012, 11:14 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
ok here's the thing about Holzer. he is kicking butt in the AHL. he is practically unchallenged there right now. no one beats him. no one can score on the Marlies when he plays. it's remedial for him. when he played pre-season on the Leafs he looked quite natural out there too. if he were to play for the Leafs tomorrow he would fit right in. Schenn on the other hand would not look like a confident defenseman in the AHL. he would look rather average. yeah he might be a little tougher, but he still wouldn't be able to play a positional game. he still wouldn't be able to make that first pass. he still wouldn't make that great defensive play. in the NHL Schenn looks like he doesn't belong on most nights. "out of place" would be an understatement. he can't make that first pass. he doesn't make that great defensive play.

Holzer without a doubt is the better player in that role.
Great points.

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Old
05-31-2012, 11:19 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
How can a player that slow lead D in the NHL in hits? Pick your poison; he will not be able to continue to be physical should he lose weight, his body will break down. His instincts and hockey IQ have never waned, his confidence on the other hand has significantly.
Marc Staal, Dan Girardi, Brooks Orpik, Brad Stuart, Willie Mitchell.

These are all physical defensemen just off the top of my head that are all around Schenn's height who all weigh less than 220lbs and all of them seem to manage to play threw a whole season+ playoffs.

So why does Schenn need weight 20 odd pounds more than these players? The answer is, He doesn't.


I don't really have a problem with his hockey IQ. He often makes the right pass, But it's sometimes is 2 or 3 seconds late, But anyways.

Schenn's real problem is his mobility.

So if he cut down by about 15lbs, You'd see more of this.

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05-31-2012, 11:23 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
ok here's the thing about Holzer. he is kicking butt in the AHL. he is practically unchallenged there right now. no one beats him. no one can score on the Marlies when he plays. it's remedial for him. when he played pre-season on the Leafs he looked quite natural out there too. if he were to play for the Leafs tomorrow he would fit right in. Schenn on the other hand would not look like a confident defenseman in the AHL. he would look rather average. yeah he might be a little tougher, but he still wouldn't be able to play a positional game. he still wouldn't be able to make that first pass. he still wouldn't make that great defensive play. in the NHL Schenn looks like he doesn't belong on most nights. "out of place" would be an understatement. he can't make that first pass. he doesn't make that great defensive play.

Holzer without a doubt is the better player in that role.
So Schenn would not look like a confident defenceman in the AHL, yet at 18 against grown men, in the NHL, he was extremenly confident and his play showed this. Schenn actually has a very good outlet pass; you should watch him. What you seem to be having a hard time grasping is the talent level in the AHL vs the NHL. You probably didnt realize this based on your posts, but they are quite different.

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05-31-2012, 11:26 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
Marc Staal, Dan Girardi, Brooks Orpik, Brad Stuart, Willie Mitchell.

These are all physical defensemen just off the top of my head that are all around Schenn's height who all weigh less than 220lbs and all of them seem to manage to play threw a whole season+ playoffs.

So why does Schenn need weight 20 odd pounds more than these players? The answer is, He doesn't.


I don't really have a problem with his hockey IQ. He often makes the right pass, But it's sometimes is 2 or 3 seconds late, But anyways.

Schenn's real problem is his mobility.

So if he cut down by about 15lbs, You'd see more of this.
You didnt answer the question. How can a player with such problems with mobility, consistently lead the NHL defence in hits?

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05-31-2012, 11:26 PM
  #45
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giving up on prospects

i pity you all

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05-31-2012, 11:32 PM
  #46
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Heres a fun fact: Out of the 2008 entry draft

Luke Schenn ranks 3rd in Games Played: Top Ten

Steven Stamkos-325
Drew Doughty-316
Luke Schenn-310
Josh Bailey-291
Zach Bogosian-264
Tyler Myers-217
Erik Karlson-216
Mikkel Boedker-208
Micheal Del Zotto-204
Luca Sbisa-195

Again he is on pace with the rest of his draft class in this aspect. If he was as bad as everyone says common sense says he would have been benched or sent down

He ranks 8th in his draft class among defence for goals! He averages 3.7 goals a season yes that seems bad to all the people who only look at stats but here is how many people tied his 2 goals for on D:

Anton Volchenkov,Scott Hannon,Paul Martin, Zybnek Michalek,Adam Larsson (yea i know hes a rookie but people need to stop looking at stats.

Make it better if Schenn hits his average of 3-4 goals he ties:

Matt Greene,Mark Stuart,Tomas Kaberle,Rusty Klesla,Braden Coburn,Erik Johnson.

Id say for a guy being paid not to score he does an average job at it.

Luke Schenn led the league amongst D in hits with 270, finished 21st in giveaways with 58 (behind Chara Karlsson Doughty Yandle, all all stars yet not crucified for his give away) and tied for 38 in take aways (tied with Chara,Letang Del Zotto)

point is he is not near as bad as everyone here likes to think. He was in a system that he had no meaning playing in. His stick skills are below par but that doesnt mean that he is horrible it means in a system like RC where defence reigns he will shine, just like komisarek. Schenn on one play can make a huge play to pick the puck up and lose it and everyone will remember the bad. Let him play, in my eyes we got another Dmitri Yuskevich on our hands. Him with Gardiner helps Gardiner. You partner him with a player like Phaneuf (i know the play the same side I said a player like) and we may have a great tandem here!!!

Holzer is nowhere near Schenn. Theres a reason why Dupuis cant get a point up here yet ppg in the AHL, Zigomanis 4th line up here, all star in the AHL. You see you cant compare two players in different leagues.

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Old
05-31-2012, 11:45 PM
  #47
Rare Jewel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
You didnt answer the question. How can a player with such problems with mobility, consistently lead the NHL defence in hits?
Who gives a **** about hits if he's consistently a minus player who can barely skate?

This isn't the clutch and grab NHL anymore, Defending is done by positioning, speed and puck movement. Look at Vancouver's defense, Show me a defensemen there who is slow and can't make at very least a decent first pass? Alberts may be the only one.


You're making a big fuss out of something any plug with a body temperature of 98 degrees can do and looking right over some of the glaring problems he has.

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05-31-2012, 11:46 PM
  #48
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Holy s**t you are overrating the ever-living s**t out of Holzer.

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05-31-2012, 11:47 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by daethfromabove1979 View Post
i would say anyone is better than schenn.. any leafs fan who thinks schenn is good is delirious

i feel like i'm taking crazy pills, he is so bad, he can barely even hold a stick
I feel like you're taking crazy pills too.

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05-31-2012, 11:48 PM
  #50
Rare Jewel
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giving up on prospects

i pity you all
I should add that I haven't given up on him at all. I just expect more of him that's all.

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