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Holzer over Schenn

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Old
02-10-2013, 02:16 PM
  #176
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Holzer's first few games were a bit of rust/adjustment IMHO. I've been saying for a while, for anyone that watched his AHL duties, he was the best defenseman on the marlies by far.

He has top 4 shutdown type potential. I don't think he's just your average #5/#6 like a Fraser is. Perhaps I'm the only one with those sentiments, we'll see.

To add, I don't miss Schenn at all. In fact, it felt like I was one of the only leaf fans who was clamoring for the JVR deal, even if we had to add a 2nd rounder.

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02-10-2013, 02:43 PM
  #177
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I agree with you that Holzer has legit top-4 upside, and Fraser does not.

that being said, I've been pleasantly surprised with Fraser, especially with his poise with the puck, and he looks just fine as a bottom pair guy, IMO.

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02-10-2013, 03:01 PM
  #178
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be interesting to see what Nonis does with all of his dmen

Phaneuf
Kostka
Liles
Gunnarsson
Franson
Komisarek
Gardiner
Fraser
Holzer

I honestly think 2 dmen will be shipped out along with Macarthur..Gardiner could be ready soon so if he is once again NHL capable like last year. Liles goes

If Holzer keeps it up then maybe Franson or Gunnarrsson.

One of these options along with Kostka will probably be shipped. Probably bringing us a 1st and a prospect.

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Old
02-10-2013, 03:43 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Luke Schenn wasn't a bad puck handler or passer. His shot was also ok. He seemed to loose a step and come into camp overweight. Not saying he was out of shape but he was 230+ pounds and as a result it affected his speed. He lost the ability to keep up and chase down some of the NHL's quicker forwards. I also think he changed after he stood up to Neil and took a beating. He seemed to be less intimidating and more timid.

That said he is probably a better puck handler than most give him credit for and better than Holzner. He used to beat guys with little deaks. Holzner does have a reach advantage and uses his poke check more effectively. Holzner is also faster. Holzner seems to chirp out a lot out there and jumps in quickly when others give Reimer an extra poke. That low fuse is something we haven't seen from many defencemen. Protecting the goalie with a little more vigor is going to help. Holzner also seems to be able to jump up into the play. Something Schenn rarely did.

At this point I'd pick Holzner over Schenn. Seems better defensively and more mobile.
Honestly, Schenn had some of the worst puck control skills I've seen by an NHLer. The panic on his face when he had a forechecker on him was evident. His turnovers were way too costly and costed us games.

He has already cost the Flyers one game where the Flyers won the faceoff in the neutral zone and Schenn panicked, and Wolski poked it by him for a breakaway leading to the GWG.

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02-10-2013, 03:47 PM
  #180
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Holzer looks like he has top four skills in the sense that he has mobility and can make plays without looking panicked like Schenn. Very reasonably, I think he could be a slightly more aggressive Aki Berg with the potential to be more depending on what his hockey sense is like.

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Old
02-10-2013, 03:57 PM
  #181
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Gunnar-Phaenuf
Gards-Holzer

Next years top four.

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02-10-2013, 09:15 PM
  #182
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Holzer has been really good. And tbh, I had a really good feeling he would based on how he played for the marlies. I love Gunnarsson as much as anybody but I would rather he stay out of the leafs lineup for the next little bit. The leaf defence are getting a reputation of being big, truculent and nasty. I'd love it if they could keep this persona and maybe intimidate opposing teams.

And Holzer is a big part of that nastiness. I liked Schenn a lot when he was on the leafs, even when he wasn't playing well, but seven games in for Holzer and I already like him better than Schenn.

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02-10-2013, 09:17 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by calcal798 View Post
Gunnar-Phaenuf
Gards-Holzer

Next years top four.
I wouldn't mind another top 4 RH defenseman.

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Old
02-10-2013, 10:57 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Holzer has been really good. And tbh, I had a really good feeling he would based on how he played for the marlies. I love Gunnarsson as much as anybody but I would rather he stay out of the leafs lineup for the next little bit. The leaf defence are getting a reputation of being big, truculent and nasty. I'd love it if they could keep this persona and maybe intimidate opposing teams.

And Holzer is a big part of that nastiness. I liked Schenn a lot when he was on the leafs, even when he wasn't playing well, but seven games in for Holzer and I already like him better than Schenn.
gotta agree

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02-10-2013, 11:11 PM
  #185
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I can't believe the Leafs got JVR for Schenn
Flyer fans are very happy with Schenn and say he has has been great. They have nothing but good things to say about him so far.

Win win for both teams it seems. A team with great depth in young Forwards traded one for a young Dman on a team with great yong depth at that position.

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02-10-2013, 11:14 PM
  #186
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I was saying that Holzer would be better than Schenn last year as well (although I guess that's not saying much).

I love how Holzer was the first guy to lay the smack down on anyone who came near Reimer the other night.

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02-10-2013, 11:34 PM
  #187
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I love how Holzer clears players from in front of the net.

Not to mention he always seems to be the guy who clears the puck out of the crease when the goalie fumbles it as well. (Moreso with Scrivens, because his style is atrocious)

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Old
02-11-2013, 12:35 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Flyer fans are very happy with Schenn and say he has has been great. They have nothing but good things to say about him so far.

Win win for both teams it seems. A team with great depth in young Forwards traded one for a young Dman on a team with great yong depth at that position.
I doubt it, watch the highlights of the Flyers vs. Caps game earlier in the year. Totally dropped the ball in a 3-2 loss.

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Old
02-11-2013, 12:41 AM
  #189
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Defence and defensive recovery is all about skating. While apparently, Schenn's skating has improved, he will always be very average in that respect, and thus will have problems playing against really good players. It is impossible to play flawless defense - the key is being able to recover from those mistakes.

That's why I've never been a fan of Schenn. He has to pull himself out of position to make big hits, but he can't recover because of his skating.

Same issue lies with Kostka. He's a smart defenceman who is sound positionally; however, is skating is below average. But at least he doesn't have to pull himself out of position to be effective.

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02-11-2013, 12:52 AM
  #190
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Holzer has a lot of Dani Markov in him. Not very structured, all over the place but some how finds a way to get things done. If you recall Markov, he too was nasty, blocked a lot of shots, and was plain crazy.

We haven't had nastiness in our D since Markov and Yuskevich days.

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02-11-2013, 01:16 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Holzer has been really good. And tbh, I had a really good feeling he would based on how he played for the marlies. I love Gunnarsson as much as anybody but I would rather he stay out of the leafs lineup for the next little bit. The leaf defence are getting a reputation of being big, truculent and nasty. I'd love it if they could keep this persona and maybe intimidate opposing teams.

And Holzer is a big part of that nastiness. I liked Schenn a lot when he was on the leafs, even when he wasn't playing well, but seven games in for Holzer and I already like him better than Schenn.
I'd love to sit Liles and put Gunnar in. Liles has not been good at all.

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02-11-2013, 01:16 AM
  #192
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I was saying that Holzer would be better than Schenn last year as well (although I guess that's not saying much).

I love how Holzer was the first guy to lay the smack down on anyone who came near Reimer the other night.
Holzer looks like he has more facets to his game, but Schenn is doing very well in Philly, it would seem, playing 20+ minutes a game, third highest of Flyer's defensemen. Change of scenery was good for him. Win-win situation for both players and both franchises.

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02-11-2013, 01:37 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by fahad203 View Post
Holzer has a lot of Dani Markov in him. Not very structured, all over the place but some how finds a way to get things done. If you recall Markov, he too was nasty, blocked a lot of shots, and was plain crazy.

We haven't had nastiness in our D since Markov and Yuskevich days.
That is not his game at all. He is a controlled player with agility and physical ability and order in his game. He seems to do things quite smoothly on the ice and when at his best does it without trying to do too much.

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02-11-2013, 01:41 AM
  #194
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Not sure why everyone is trying to get rid of Liles. Although has not done goo much offensively has been good on the puck and on his man. Is a first class citizen in the citizen and in the dressing room. We need vets like that. In a pinch can produce offence when called on to do so. Now if we are talking about not trying to win games and win ping pong balls he might bring a little something.

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02-11-2013, 01:46 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by fahad203 View Post
Holzer has a lot of Dani Markov in him. Not very structured, all over the place but some how finds a way to get things done. If you recall Markov, he too was nasty, blocked a lot of shots, and was plain crazy.

We haven't had nastiness in our D since Markov and Yuskevich days.
I don't think Holzer's that nasty though. I've seen him throw a couple of big hits along the boards but not that much to indicate he's one of those guys who likes to hurt and intimidate like Markov used to be. Maybe he just hasn't shown it yet?

Come to think of it, they really don't make them quite like they used to with guys like Markov, Yushkie and even Svehla. There must be too much money in the game today, you don't get a lot of those really mean SOBs too often anymore.

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Old
02-11-2013, 01:51 AM
  #196
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Not sure why everyone is trying to get rid of Liles. Although has not done goo much offensively has been good on the puck and on his man. Is a first class citizen in the citizen and in the dressing room. We need vets like that. In a pinch can produce offence when called on to do so. Now if we are talking about not trying to win games and win ping pong balls he might bring a little something.
He needs to QB the PP more effectively. He's getting 4 million to do that and our PP is floundering

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02-11-2013, 02:02 AM
  #197
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He needs to QB the PP more effectively. He's getting 4 million to do that and our PP is floundering
He is not the problem. The real pooches are Phaneuf and Kostka. Liles time has been reduced this year I think. Need to get Kostka off there and give that time to Liles. Phaneufs numbers will get better too.

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02-11-2013, 04:10 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
I actually remember that play. He looked to give it back to Phanuef because he was pressured and Phanuef was daydreaming.

Also what a dumb play to bring up, apparently you can't make 1 "errant" pass in hockey. Kessel turned the puck over 4 or 5 times and still played a great game. Hockey is a game of consistency, the best players minimize their mistakes but in no way do they make NO mistakes.
I like reading your posts man, always right on the money.

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02-11-2013, 04:12 AM
  #199
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I doubt it, watch the highlights of the Flyers vs. Caps game earlier in the year. Totally dropped the ball in a 3-2 loss.
Yeah exactly, Shcenn still makes those awful plays that costs key goals. Flyer fans are the most stubborn people, don't think they will ever admit they lost a trade. JVR is fantastic and there's a reason he went #2 overall in a deep draft, just needed a change of scenery.

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02-11-2013, 04:49 AM
  #200
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Yeah exactly, Shcenn still makes those awful plays that costs key goals. Flyer fans are the most stubborn people, don't think they will ever admit they lost a trade. JVR is fantastic and there's a reason he went #2 overall in a deep draft, just needed a change of scenery.
As Winston Wolfe said to Vincent and Jules ... "lets not blow smoke up each others azz just yet."

Recently Schenn has been teamed with Timonen and has been very good lately.

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