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The Official Jordan Staal Wacky Speculation Thread IV

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Old
06-18-2012, 07:05 AM
  #351
ss53mech
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It may have been discussed already but do we fit as trade partners for anahiem? Could something around Staal + Martin for Ryan/Perry work? I remember them not having the deepest team. They seem to have some real talent just not much depth. I don't hate martin as much as most but I am really high on both Perry and Ryan so adding either of them to Sid's line would make me happy in the pants. Doesn't solve the 3rd line center problem with him gone but that seems like a lot easier problem to sovle via free agency than the top 6 wing hole. Thoughts?

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06-18-2012, 07:07 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by ss53mech View Post
It may have been discussed already but do we fit as trade partners for anahiem? Could something around Staal + Martin for Ryan/Perry work? I remember them not having the deepest team. They seem to have some real talent just not much depth. I don't hate martin as much as most but I am really high on both Perry and Ryan so adding either of them to Sid's line would make me happy in the pants. Doesn't solve the 3rd line center problem with him gone but that seems like a lot easier problem to sovle via free agency than the top 6 wing hole. Thoughts?
I remember this being discussed on the main board, Ducks fans in general didnt wanna trade a winger for a center, then they'd just have another hole to fill, they want a 2nd line Center to play with Ryan.

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06-18-2012, 07:29 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Letang fan 58 View Post
Wait....are you kidding me?....you are THE guy whos been pushing for Kulemin Schenn for Staal. Sutter>>>>Kulemin and Faulk>>Schenn.
Doesnt matter if Faulk is an offensive guy or not, they are worth more and can be traded, just look at the return we got for Goligoski.
Sutter is not better than Kulemin. And the latter fills a need in the top 6. He's a big body with offensive upside that play a sound defensive game. He'd play in all situations here and allow us to move Kuni back with Sid.

Schenn is exactly what we could use on the backend, but I had forgotten he was resigned at 3.5 mil. Not worth the risk.

As for moving Faulk in a separate deal. Again, I said in my post, if there's another move being made in a trade or free agency, then great. But all we're really doing for next year is downgrading in that deal by itself, is downgrading. Great value, but doesn't really address our needs.

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06-18-2012, 07:40 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Letang fan 58 View Post
Whered you see this? I havent seen it anywhere on the internet at this point.
Around the 14:50 mark.
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/video...-june-17-2012/

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06-18-2012, 07:44 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by ss53mech View Post
Could something around Staal + Martin for Ryan/Perry work?
Doubt it purely on salary reasons. The Ducks have an internal cap which I believe is in the mid 50s.

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06-18-2012, 07:46 AM
  #356
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ty

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Old
06-18-2012, 07:49 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Sutter is not better than Kulemin. And the latter fills a need in the top 6. He's a big body with offensive upside that play a sound defensive game. He'd play in all situations here and allow us to move Kuni back with Sid.

Schenn is exactly what we could use on the backend, but I had forgotten he was resigned at 3.5 mil. Not worth the risk.

As for moving Faulk in a separate deal. Again, I said in my post, if there's another move being made in a trade or free agency, then great. But all we're really doing for next year is downgrading in that deal by itself, is downgrading. Great value, but doesn't really address our needs.
If the Pens could get back Sutter + Faulk that would be much better than Schenn + Kulemin. Its really not even debateable at this point. If we want a scrub like Kulemin maybe we can offer Toronto a 4th round pick and get him. Your love for him is undying.

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Old
06-18-2012, 07:56 AM
  #358
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Faulk - for all his talent - might not even be on our roster and tactically solves absolutely no issue on our blueline! Sutter is a major downgrade from Staal.

Kulemin and Schenn (who I wouldn't want on his current deal), walk right into our team and both improve it, provided Martin is gone.

Asset value relative to contracts, that's one thing. Needs, that is something else entirely.
I would do the Carolina deal Rossi hypothesized, but it would create added work trade wise for Shero to make it actually improve us in the short term.

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Old
06-18-2012, 07:57 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Faulk - for all his talent - might not even be on our roster and tactically solves absolutely no issue on our blueline! Sutter is a major downgrade from Staal.

Kulemin and Schenn (who I wouldn't want on his current deal), walk right into our team and both improve it, provided Martin is gone.

Asset value relative to contracts, that's one thing. Needs, that is something else entirely.
Are you kidding me? If you dont think Faulk makes our roster theres no need to answer anything you say again lol.

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06-18-2012, 08:12 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Letang fan 58 View Post
Are you kidding me? If you dont think Faulk makes our roster theres no need to answer anything you say again lol.
I am not kidding you at all. He is not better than Niskanen right now. In fact - defensively he is a ways worse - and Niskanen is a 5th D-man on this team. Engelland we need more for other reasons than talent.

Faulk has more offensive skill than Despres, but I would insert Despres next to Michalek over Faulk any day, because we need his skillset more.

Face it - Faulk played big minutes on one of the worst D's in the league because their nr.1 D-man missed the majority of the season, and the only other full-time experienced D-men happened to an all-out defensive unit in Gleason-Allen.
It was a full season of the situation Niskanen had when we had lots of injuries and at that time he was playing even more than Faulk, doing significantly better against tougher competition.

You're simply youth struck. Faulk is a very good talent, but an undersized RH D-man who is not an elite PP quarterback (at all) and is defensively dodgy matches the description of a Pittsburgh Penguins need like.... well, not very well at all.

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06-18-2012, 08:16 AM
  #361
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Yeah Faulk definitely makes our roster unless Despres or Morrow destroy camp. Even still, they would be kept down for contract purposes. If that trade went down our d corps would be:

Letang Orpik
Niskanen Michalek
Faulk Engelland
Strait Bortuzzo

That depth is ridiculous. Plus we would have 3 puck movers with offensive abilities with 3 shutdown guys, 2 being physical. Certainly in that situation, one if not both of Strait and Bort could be moved.

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Old
06-18-2012, 08:16 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Letang fan 58 View Post
Are you kidding me? If you dont think Faulk makes our roster theres no need to answer anything you say again lol.
I don't know anything about the guy but I guess you're saying he's straight up better than Morrow and Despres? That's quite a bit to swallow.

At any rate I find it funny that Rossi is a hack until the end of time around here until he pulls a juicy trade rumor out of his ass. Then it's okay to give credence to what he says. Oh well, frankly (and in a twist of irony) I think you guys are a little hard on him but I will say that I don't think he has ANY clue about what other teams are offering the Penguins.

Like honestly, he knows the exact offer that's been made? Also, that's probably a slight overpayment for Staal too. Another reason I don't believe it.

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Old
06-18-2012, 08:19 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Yeah Faulk definitely makes our roster unless Despres or Morrow destroy camp. Even still, they would be kept down for contract purposes.
Or Faulk would, considering that he is at the same stage of his ELC as Despres.

If anyone thinks Despres would not have played heavy minutes as a regular on last years Carolina Hurricane's D, you don't really know what their options were like.

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06-18-2012, 08:20 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
I don't know anything about the guy but I guess you're saying he's straight up better than Morrow and Despres? That's quite a bit to swallow.

At any rate I find it funny that Rossi is a hack until the end of time around here until he pulls a juicy trade rumor out of his ass. Then it's okay to give credence to what he says. Oh well, frankly (and in a twist of irony) I think you guys are a little hard on him but I will say that I don't think he has ANY clue about what other teams are offering the Penguins.

Like honestly, he knows the exact offer that's been made? Also, that's probably a slight overpayment for Staal too. Another reason I don't believe it.
I don't think anyone is giving it much more credence than they are if one of us said it. We have discussed a Sutter, 8th, McBain/Faulk trade over and over on this board. Yeah it's 95% total bull**** but the discussion turned to "if that were the trade, would you take it?".

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06-18-2012, 08:24 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Letang Orpik
Niskanen Michalek
Faulk Engelland
Strait Bortuzzo

That depth is ridiculous. Plus we would have 3 puck movers with offensive abilities with 3 shutdown guys, 2 being physical. Certainly in that situation, one if not both of Strait and Bort could be moved.
Don't you realize the silliness of suggesting that this is ridiculously awesome when your only change from this years 'hahaha' D is to downgrade from Martin to Faulk and to insert Strait or Bortuzzo instead of Lovejoy. You don't seriously think that Faulk at this point of his career holds a candle to Martin defensively, do you?

Martin played harder minutes, more minutes and produced more - in defensively his worst ever season. Faulk was a positive surprise because noone expected anything, never mind that he was a D-worst -16 and had less offensive production than Martin despite a much bigger PP role.

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06-18-2012, 08:24 AM
  #366
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Or Faulk would, considering that he is at the same stage of his ELC as Despres.

If anyone thinks Despres would not have played heavy minutes as a regular on last years Carolina Hurricane's D, you don't really know what their options were like.
Yeah I came back to edit my post. Forgot they were at the same contract situations. Either way, I think he is a hell of an asset to have. You basically have 3 dmen prospects at age 20 that have a significant chance to be top 4 and all have offensive upside. Even if you don't keep Faulk, you can flip him in another deal for a top 6 winger prospect.

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06-18-2012, 08:27 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
I don't know anything about the guy but I guess you're saying he's straight up better than Morrow and Despres? That's quite a bit to swallow. EDIT: NM I didn't realize he played so many games this year.

At any rate I find it funny that Rossi is a hack until the end of time around here until he pulls a juicy trade rumor out of his ass. Then it's okay to give credence to what he says. Oh well, frankly (and in a twist of irony) I think you guys are a little hard on him but I will say that I don't think he has ANY clue about what other teams are offering the Penguins.

Like honestly, he knows the exact offer that's been made? Also, that's probably a slight overpayment for Staal too. Another reason I don't believe it.
Faulk is a rising star in the league. While Morrow may have great upside, he's at best several seasons behind in development, at worst never gonna be as good as Faulk is already showing that he is. He led the Hurricanes in ice time last season at 23 minutes a game, while playing in absolutely every situation.

When his regular season was complete, Faulk went to play for USA at the world championships. He was named player of the game at least once for Team USA, was then named Team USA's best Dman in the tourney while scoring 8 points in 8 games and leading the team with a +9 rating.

Oh and he was 19 while doing this all.


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Old
06-18-2012, 08:30 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Don't you realize the silliness of suggesting that this is ridiculously awesome when your only change from this years 'hahaha' D is to downgrade from Martin to Faulk and to insert Strait or Bortuzzo instead of Lovejoy. You don't seriously think that Faulk at this point of his career holds a candle to Martin defensively, do you?

Martin played harder minutes, more minutes and produced more - in defensively his worst ever season. Faulk was a positive surprise because noone expected anything, never mind that he was a D-worst -16.
Well for starters, I don't think the personnel was really the problem. We had and have the dmen in place to be a top 10 defensive squad. I would be fine to not trade Martin at all and roll with what we had. I think the system needs tweaked, the forwards need to pick up the trailers and we need to stop focusing on transitioning the puck out of the zone before we even have control. The reason I want Martin gone is because I think we need a shake up to wake up the team and he's seen as a major piece of that squad. Plus he carries the biggest cap hit.

Anyway, I also think it's time to give the kids a chance. Put Despres in instead of Faulk, Strait or Bort in there as well, and I think by the trade deadline you have a really solid D squad. So yeah, do I think adding another very good young defenseman (call him prospect if you'd like) to an already deep core of young dmen is "ridiculously awesome" (your words not mine)? Sure.

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06-18-2012, 08:35 AM
  #369
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Honest question: Why are people totally cool with slotting Niskanen into the top 4? I thought he gradually got worse the more they asked him to play real minutes.

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06-18-2012, 08:38 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by Letang fan 58 View Post
If the Pens could get back Sutter + Faulk that would be much better than Schenn + Kulemin. Its really not even debateable at this point. If we want a scrub like Kulemin maybe we can offer Toronto a 4th round pick and get him. Your love for him is undying.
Downgrade from Staal when there are options in free agency and internally with Jeffrey. And bring in another undersized offensive D-man. That'd be fine if we were forced to move Staal there, but not otherwise.

I'm a Kulemin homer. Kids exactly what we could use up front. But I'd much rather go with some other proposed deals for Staal and try and acquire Kulemin separately.

No need to get hostile.

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06-18-2012, 08:42 AM
  #371
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Honest question: Why are people totally cool with slotting Niskanen into the top 4? I thought he gradually got worse the more they asked him to play real minutes.
He looked no worse than anyone else in the postseason. I'm not buying this myth he looked worse. I'd say some of his best TOI was with Michalek.

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06-18-2012, 08:44 AM
  #372
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Honest question: Why are people totally cool with slotting Niskanen into the top 4? I thought he gradually got worse the more they asked him to play real minutes.
I thought he handled the added time quite well and was very solid in the playoffs considering his injury. I don't know if I'm "totally cool" with it, but I think he has the upside to do well and he would be a good stop gap until Despres is ready. Honestly, I don't see many other d out there that we can get unless we are trading Staal for a d or we keep Martin (which I don't prefer but I won't cry about it). So it's more the logical choice than the ideal one.

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06-18-2012, 08:45 AM
  #373
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He looked no worse than anyone else in the postseason. I'm not buying this myth he looked worse. I'd say some of his best TOI was with Michalek.
I didn't know it was a myth on this board or anything, just my opinion thru the regular season when he played above his normal role. I just didn't think he was very good playing 20+ minutes against good players. To say nothing of the postseason of course. I would say that's about the worst thing to go by in terms of gauging each defenseman's talent.

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06-18-2012, 08:46 AM
  #374
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Well for starters, I don't think the personnel was really the problem. We had and have the dmen in place to be a top 10 defensive squad. I would be fine to not trade Martin at all and roll with what we had. I think the system needs tweaked, the forwards need to pick up the trailers and we need to stop focusing on transitioning the puck out of the zone before we even have control. The reason I want Martin gone is because I think we need a shake up to wake up the team and he's seen as a major piece of that squad. Plus he carries the biggest cap hit.
We agree on all of that.

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Anyway, I also think it's time to give the kids a chance. Put Despres in instead of Faulk, Strait or Bort in there as well, and I think by the trade deadline you have a really solid D squad. So yeah, do I think adding another very good young defenseman (call him prospect if you'd like) to an already deep core of young dmen is "ridiculously awesome" (your words not mine)? Sure.
But you cannot give all the kids a chance if you load up big time on one position.

Despres solves a need on our team because he is BIG, mobile shut down D-man. I don't think he is as good as Martin right now as an overall hockey player, but I think he will contribute to making us better as a team, because he has a profile we simply need more.

Morrow I would consider more valuable TO US than Faulk, because he is a genuine option for the PP at the same time as he has more size, is a better skater and plays with more of an edge. Clearly though, he is a couple of years away.

My problem with Faulk is not his asset value. He is obviously a talented D-man irrespective of playing above his station on last years Hurricanes - contributing to that team being horrible defensively whenever Gleason/Allen were not on the ice, more or less.
My problem with him is that we don't need his type of player, and just like it was the case with Martin - a better player - when you get someone you don't need, that player tends not get played in a suitable role, and thus you get sliding valuations and therefore not the return you thought/hoped when you picked them up.

Example - Kyle Quincey was Colorado's nr.1 D-man in terms of minutes, playing all situations etc. because they NEEDED an all-round puck mover with a bit of offense. He goes to the Wings and he is 3rd pairing. Alex Goligoski plays really big minutes for the Pens as a 3rd pairing, PP and 'late in games we are trailing' option. He goes to Dallas for bigger minutes still and more of 2nd pairing 1B role.

For me, Justin Faulk suits us as much as getting a talented third line center while keeping Jordan Staal on the third line and having Vitale for the 4th. Any benefitis is 'in the future', and this while having a fantastic D-pipeline already.

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06-18-2012, 08:49 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Downgrade from Staal when there are options in free agency and internally with Jeffrey. And bring in another undersized offensive D-man. That'd be fine if we were forced to move Staal there, but not otherwise.

I'm a Kulemin homer. Kids exactly what we could use up front. But I'd much rather go with some other proposed deals for Staal and try and acquire Kulemin separately.

No need to get hostile.
Jeffrey doesn't hold a candle to Sutter at this point though and I don't see THAT much of a defensive downgrade from Staal to Sutter. I'm a really big Jeffrey fan but we just don't know what we have in him at this point. I can't see us trading Staal and then just plugging Jeffrey into the role unless we are getting a dynamic top 6 winger. Basically the reward to the top 6 is greater than the risk to the 3rd line. Kulemin is not that winger. I like him a lot and think he would slot into that Malkin-Neal combo very well, but not as a centerpiece to the Staal deal. Plus I don't care for Schenn at 3.5. Way too much money for a non-proven player.

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