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The Official Jordan Staal Wacky Speculation Thread IV

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Old
06-21-2012, 01:41 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post

Sign and trades very rarely ever happen, and I don't see Staal or Shero being the types to go through with that scenario. If Staal signs a long-term deal, it's to be here for the long haul. If Shero offers Staal said long-term deal, it's because he wants Staal around for the long haul.

A sign and trade would increase his value and get a king's ransom of a return, but it's even less likely to happen than prudent Shero going out and signing Parise or Suter for big money this summer and trimming the fat that is Martin and Orpik.
I don't mean a sign and trade as in trade him right now. I mean sign him and them have the understanding that in a year or two, they will reevaluate where both parties are at and can explore options then if the parties want to go another way. Pretty much the same as signing a 2 year extension, except no player would want to do this in case they are injured or have a bad year. With this scenario, there is little risk from the players side

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06-21-2012, 01:41 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by boardin087 View Post
I'm hesitant to spend the cash on Parise over a d man like Suter.

I always think back to what we could have had here in Hossa. We offered him a huge contract (over 7 million). In retrospect, I think this would have been a big mistake. I just don't believe that a player like Hossa, is going to produce anymore than a James Neal type player.

Do I think that Hossa is better than Neal? When forced to produce on his own, absolutely. However, they aren't playing in a vacuum. A winger that comes here isn't going to need to carry the play. The pens don't need a Parise type player on Crosby or Malkins line to produce a ton of points. Take Parise and put him on a line with Malkin instead of Neal, honestly how many more goals do you expect to get out of that line? Even for a player with slightly less skill, on a line with Crosby or Malkin, do you really believe they would get that much extra production?
Parise does so much more than score points though. He would improve our GAA than most of the available defensemen would imo.

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06-21-2012, 01:42 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I just think if Staal plans on leaving, now is the time. He could do better than 6 mil as a free agent and he has to know it. And as some of us are arguing, there may be better ways for us to spend 6 mil
There are much better ways to spend 6 million, except who knows if those better ways will be available via FA or trade

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06-21-2012, 01:42 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Parise does so much more than score points though. He would improve our GAA than most of the available defensemen would imo.
I love Parise, but on the open market, what do you think he is going to command?

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06-21-2012, 01:43 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by boardin087 View Post
There are much better ways to spend 6 million, except who knows if those better ways will be available via FA or trade
luckily we don't have to sign or trade Staal on July 1st.

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06-21-2012, 01:43 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by boardin087 View Post
I love Parise, but on the open market, what do you think he is going to command?
I'd give Parise between 7 and 8 before I give Staal 6.

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06-21-2012, 01:46 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
And this year, I'd love it. But then next year we'd probably want a spot for Morrow. And then probably Harrington. As long as we are happy to move out two more guys in the next two years, I'm fine with it. But just to have that defense this year, you have to get rid of Martin, Orpik, Bortuzzo and Lovejoy. Parise just fills the much more glaring and completely unfilled hole imo.
Engelland and most likely Niskanen will probably be out of here by the time Harrington and Morrow are ready for full time NHL duty, I'd say. Bortuzzo and Lovejoy are, when it boils down to it, non-players in the equation. If they want to walk, so be it, but you can try to trade them for whatever you can get.

A handful of seasons down the road:

Suter - Letang
Morrow - Despres
Michalek - Harrington
Whoever

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06-21-2012, 01:47 PM
  #908
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He won't reach his potential here. That's just plain and simple. You can get all the minutes in the world, but when you're never going to get top unit minutes on the PP (which he will not, because he isn't a better option than Sid, Geno or Neal) and you're never going to get wingers worth a damn (which he won't, because Sid and Geno are far more important in that aspect), you're not going to reach your potential. He has fallen into his place on this team, and he will never be anything more than the player we see now because it's just not possible while he's on the Penguins. I love the guy, and I think he'll thrive elsewhere (with PP time and legit wingers), but he is what he is as long as he's on the Penguins. That's not a bad thing, either, until he's asking to be paid more than a player in his role is worth to this team. It's in the best interest of both parties (Staal and the Penguins) to try and move him. He's got no room to grow and reach his potential here, and the Penguins just cannot afford to pay a player that will be asked to play the way he does the amount of money he deserves.

Honestly, I'd trade Staal for a stud defenseman before a winger. But the trending topic in this thread as of late is about Staal for forwards.
He won't reach as high of a potential offensively here as he could elsewhere. The "Staal is what he is" thing is going over the top. He has and will continue to get better offensively simply by getting older, maturing, training, etc.

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Old
06-21-2012, 01:48 PM
  #909
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The Kings are also not paying two player 8.7 million dollars. When you do so, you sacrifice what's on their wings to ice a solid team.

Teams get depth like the Kings have because they spread their salaries out.
I don't think paying your 3rd line center $6M+ when your top two centers make $8.7M is spreading your salaries out either though...

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06-21-2012, 01:50 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
Engelland and most likely Niskanen will probably be out of here by the time Harrington and Morrow are ready for full time NHL duty, I'd say. Bortuzzo and Lovejoy are, when it boils down to it, non-players in the equation. If they want to walk, so be it, but you can try to trade them for whatever you can get.

A handful of seasons down the road:

Suter - Letang
Morrow - Despres
Michalek - Harrington
Whoever
I love that defense. I really do. I just think considering the guys we have available to fill the positions Parise and Suter would take, we have better options to fill Suter's spot than Parise's. And honestly, I think Parise is the better player.

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06-21-2012, 01:51 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
He won't reach as high of a potential offensively here as he could elsewhere. The "Staal is what he is" thing is going over the top. He has and will continue to get better offensively simply by getting older, maturing, training, etc.
I think that's somewhat true, but do we really think its a coincidence that his offense took enormous strides as soon as he got put into a top 6 center spot? Was it him just naturally growing that did it?

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06-21-2012, 01:51 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
He won't reach as high of a potential offensively here as he could elsewhere. The "Staal is what he is" thing is going over the top. He has and will continue to get better offensively simply by getting older, maturing, training, etc.
There comes a point where a player can only do so much on his own offensively. Staal isn't on Sid or Geno's level offensively, and without winger help and time on the top PP unit, he's not going to improve his offensive game or point totals by much from what he's doing now.

The problem isn't Staal, it's the fact that he'll never get the opportunity to play a more offensive game with support on his wings, or an opportunity to get high quality PP time.

And if we're going to change the system so that our 3C gets more offensive responsibility and top unit PP time, then we should trade him and spend the money on a winger who is better suited for the role on Sid's wing.

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06-21-2012, 01:52 PM
  #913
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Suter - Letang
Orpik - Niskanen
Despres - Michalek
Strait - Engelland

Too bad there isn't 4 pairs of D. Every pair would be balanced and L-R -handed.

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06-21-2012, 01:54 PM
  #914
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For the guys advocating trading Staal for a D-men.. you gotta do some math and evaluate the logjam at D.

You got Martin at $5M. Michalek at $4M. Orpik at $3.75M. Niskanen should sign at around $2M. Then you got Letang at $3.75M, which will undoubtedly increase to $7M or so when he signs his next deal.

So just with our current players alone, that is $18.5M among 5 players... or ~$21.75M when Letang gets his big raise.

I'm a numbers guy, so I think about these practical implications on cap spend. If we added Suter into the mix, that would be roughly ~$28M invested just on defense.

That is not realistic or financially sensible IMO.

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06-21-2012, 01:54 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I love that defense. I really do. I just think considering the guys we have available to fill the positions Parise and Suter would take, we have better options to fill Suter's spot than Parise's. And honestly, I think Parise is the better player.
That's where we differ, I guess. I just don't think we need another winger for Sid when we need to improve the defense by leaps and bounds.

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06-21-2012, 01:54 PM
  #916
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Does anybody here expect Staal to maintain a similar scoring pace to last season if Sid and Geno both have healthy seasons? I don't.

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06-21-2012, 01:55 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
That's where we differ, I guess. I just don't think we need another winger for Sid when we need to improve the defense by leaps and bounds.
I don't think we need to improve our defensemen (aside from Martin for Despres) to improve our defense. THAT is where we differ. The defense fell leaps and bounds without a roster change, I think it can jump back up.

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06-21-2012, 01:56 PM
  #918
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If we can keep Staal at a good price, I want to keep him. But if he is going to cost too much, I think it makes sense to invest that money in helping our best players. Our biggest advantage isn't having Staal on the third line. Our biggest advantage is having the best centers in the league on the first two lines. We should take advantage of it as best we can.
See this is where I'm at too. I think it was nice having our 3 centers in years past when their contracts were more affordable. Unfortunately Staal is going to be demanding too much to make it feasible anymore. Because of that, we need to adjust. Having a guy like Staal is a luxury. We have the two best centers in the world. What we need to do is become a two line team, but not just any two line team. A team where it's top two lines are the best lines in the world as well. Two lines that people can't stop. As it stands right now, people can stop our top two lines in the playoffs because our wingers aren't overly gifted offensively.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. We can still have effective bottom 6 lines. They are just going to be different than in years past. They might not have as much offensive punch, but we can still get good defensive play and energy from those lines that are just as important in the playoffs. You'll be making up for the offense anyway when you give the two best centers in the world two talented players to play with.

Hell I think that 3rd line would be a great place to break in our young players on. It gives us skill and youthful excitement at a discounted price while not forcing them into a lineup spot where they are expected to produce.

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06-21-2012, 01:57 PM
  #919
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I love that defense. I really do. I just think considering the guys we have available to fill the positions Parise and Suter will take, we have better options to fill Suter's spot than Parise's.
Agreed. We already have dmen that fit into roles of "top 4" and "bottom pairing". They may not be ideal, but they are all good hockey players and adequately fit those roles. We also have d prospects that will push for those roles.

On offense, we have wingers that are only in their roles because we don't have anything better. Dupuis and Sully aren't top 6 wingers. They are both tweeners at this point in their careers. I'd love either Parise or Suter, but with the roster we have, I take Parise every time.

I suppose the point is moot since the chance of getting either is pretty slim.

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06-21-2012, 01:59 PM
  #920
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See this is where I'm at too. I think it was nice having our 3 centers in years past when their contracts were more affordable. Unfortunately Staal is going to be demanding too much to make it feasible anymore. Because of that, we need to adjust. Having a guy like Staal is a luxury. We have the two best centers in the world. What we need to do is become a two line team, but not just any two line team. A team where it's top two lines are the best lines in the world as well. Two lines that people can't stop. As it stands right now, people can stop our top two lines in the playoffs because our wingers aren't overly gifted offensively.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. We can still have effective bottom 6 lines. They are just going to be different than in years past. They might not have as much offensive punch, but we can still get good defensive play and energy from those lines that are just as important in the playoffs. You'll be making up for the offense anyway when you give the two best centers in the world two talented players to play with.

Hell I think that 3rd line would be a great place to break in our young players on. It gives us skill and youthful excitement at a discounted price while not forcing them into a lineup spot where they are expected to produce.
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Agreed. We already have dmen that fit into roles of "top 4" and "bottom pairing". They may not be ideal, but they are all good hockey players and adequately fit those roles. We also have d prospects that will push for those roles.

On offense, we have wingers that are only in their roles because we don't have anything better. Dupuis and Sully aren't top 6 wingers. They are both tweeners at this point in their careers. I'd love either Parise or Suter, but with the roster we have, I take Parise every time.

I suppose the point is moot since the chance of getting either is pretty slim.




I do think it's possible to have those dominant lines without moving Staal though. Just not quite Parise dominant.

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06-21-2012, 01:59 PM
  #921
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There comes a point where a player can only do so much on his own offensively. Staal isn't on Sid or Geno's level offensively, and without winger help and time on the top PP unit, he's not going to improve his offensive game or point totals by much from what he's doing now.

The problem isn't Staal, it's the fact that he'll never get the opportunity to play a more offensive game with support on his wings, or an opportunity to get high quality PP time.

And if we're going to change the system so that our 3C gets more offensive responsibility and top unit PP time, then we should trade him and spend the money on a winger who is better suited for the role on Sid's wing.
You're preaching to the choir here. I'm just saying you went overboard saying "he is what he is" to this team. He's 23 years old and will continue to get better. Overall though, it's probably better for Staal and his development to move elsewhere if that's a priority to him.

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06-21-2012, 02:03 PM
  #922
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That's where we differ, I guess. I just don't think we need another winger for Sid when we need to improve the defense by leaps and bounds.
I think we have the horses on D already. Look at our roster and depth on d and compare it around the league. On paper, we compare very favorably to most teams in the NHL. The problems, for the most part, aren't roster related. You can argue we need more grit on the back end and if that's the case I agree. Other than that, I think the D need a shakeup (trade Martin and let the kids battle it out) and a team defense system tweak/emphasis.

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06-21-2012, 02:03 PM
  #923
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Don't get me wrong, I would literally lose my mind if we signed Parise (), I just think signing Suter makes this team better. Can't go wrong with either one, that's for sure.

It's six with one option, half a dozen with the other. Having Parise on Sid's wing would be a dream come true, and I very much understand and agree when people say we need to surround our best players with what they need to succeed.

Crosby - Parise and Malkin - Neal would make people forget we even have a bottom-6.

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06-21-2012, 02:06 PM
  #924
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Don't get me wrong, I would literally lose my mind if we signed Parise (), I just think signing Suter makes this team better. Can't go wrong with either one, that's for sure.

It's six with one option, half a dozen with the other. Having Parise on Sid's wing would be a dream come true, and I very much understand and agree when people say we need to surround our best players with what they need to succeed.

Crosby - Parise and Malkin - Neal would make people forget we even have a bottom-6.
Depth wins Cups.

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06-21-2012, 02:08 PM
  #925
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I do think it's possible to have those dominant lines without moving Staal though. Just not quite Parise dominant.
It's certainly a lot harder if we keep Staal though. Martin's salary can be shed, and Kennedy is another that we don't need to be paying that kind of money to only to have it on the 3rd line.

Still paying anybody on your 3rd line $6M+ when your top two lines each have players that will be making $9M+ just isn't a good way to distribute your cap dollars. If you have young guys on their ELC's that you can plug in on those top 3 lines, then it's not so bad. Unfortunately we don't have anybody like that ATM, nor do we give those guys a shot in the first place.

If Staal was a good option on the wing, then by all means keep him. I'm not sure he is at this point though, and I don't know if I'd pay him $6M+ to find out. I really wish they could have gotten to test that out these past few years, but they didn't.

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