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The Official Jordan Staal Wacky Speculation Thread IV

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Old
06-03-2012, 01:16 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
What makes you think an extension has to be part of the deal? Many teams might take a chance on letting him play there a full season and trying to sign him next spring / summer.
Because the minute I heard about Staal possibly getting traded when the playoffs ended, this entered my mind. Although I cannot recall specific examples at the moment, it is not at all unprecendented to have a player be given permission to speak with other team(s) about an extension if he is not willing to sign one with his current team. It just makes total sense in order to maximize value.


Then, about a week later, Bob MacKenzie mentioned the very same thing on TSN. Again, it's just common sense in order to maximize value if they were going to move him....although MacKenzie's comment was probably more founded on evidence than my thought, which was just logical assumption.


That said, I still think he will be re-signed. But if he's not, then I think the above applies.

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06-03-2012, 01:41 PM
  #77
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I still think the ideal situation is to re-sign Staal, and to revisit his trade market next season. This upcoming season is a defining one, IMO. This could very well be the last time we can keep this entire core together, and that's sort of why I hope Shero alters this blueline.

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06-03-2012, 01:44 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
You're right, but I think any team that trades for Staal would have extended talks with him beforehand. If he was apprehensive about a re-sign, I doubt any deal would get done. Either the risk would be too high for the suitor or the return would be too low for Shero.
I guess my point is that I think the vast majority of teams are going to fall in to one of these categories. I bet there's a pretty short list of teams that need a top 6 center, that he will want to sign with, and that are willing to move the pieces to get a deal done.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 06-03-2012 at 01:53 PM.
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06-03-2012, 05:08 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I guess my point is that I think the vast majority of teams are going to fall in to one of these categories. I bet there's a pretty short list of teams that need a top 6 center, that he will want to sign with, and that are willing to move the pieces to get a deal done.
That's probably where we diverge. I think the list of "top 6 center" and "move pieces" teams would be long, and the "want to sign with" teams would consist of enough of those teams to get back a worthwhile return, if we were inclined to deal him.

Staal's a very rare commodity. If Shero put out feelers on him, I'm confident we'd be getting much better offers than most of HF predicts.

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06-03-2012, 07:23 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That's probably where we diverge. I think the list of "top 6 center" and "move pieces" teams would be long, and the "want to sign with" teams would consist of enough of those teams to get back a worthwhile return, if we were inclined to deal him.

Staal's a very rare commodity. If Shero put out feelers on him, I'm confident we'd be getting much better offers than most of HF predicts.
It's good for Shero for all these rumors are being tossed around that he's possibly available. It only hurts his cause if he's actually shopping him, rather, than having other GM's inquire about his services.

He shouldn't put feelers out unless it's truly necessary. I'm sure you agree.


Best course of action is, Shero telling Staal that they will work him into a more offensive role and sign'em to a 3/5 year deal at ? cap hit with the acknowledgement that after a season or so, if he still isn't happy with his role, that he(Shero) would grant his wish to whichever team he chooses.

At that point though, Shero would be subject to a low-ball offer, but they would gain a season or two of his services in return plus what they get in return.

A older vet top sixer plus a 3/5 prospect and a 2nd/3rd depending on the vet.

I don't have a problem with that scenario.

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06-03-2012, 07:42 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
It's good for Shero for all these rumors are being tossed around that he's possibly available. It only hurts his cause if he's actually shopping him, rather, than having other GM's inquire about his services.

He shouldn't put feelers out unless it's truly necessary. I'm sure you agree.


Best course of action is, Shero telling Staal that they will work him into a more offensive role and sign'em to a 3/5 year deal at ? cap hit with the acknowledgement that after a season or so, if he still isn't happy with his role, that he(Shero) would grant his wish to whichever team he chooses.

At that point though, Shero would be subject to a low-ball offer, but they would gain a season or two of his services in return plus what they get in return.

A older vet top sixer plus a 3/5 prospect and a 2nd/3rd depending on the vet.

I don't have a problem with that scenario.

I thoroughly disagree with this post. It has been stated by Dreger, MacKenzie & LeBrun that the package offered for Staal (if he was on the market) would be extremely significan -- i.e. a lot more than you are stating above -- and I don't see that changing if we're talking about a signed Staal in 1 or 2 years.

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06-03-2012, 08:03 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
I thoroughly disagree with this post. It has been stated by Dreger, MacKenzie & LeBrun that the package offered for Staal (if he was on the market) would be extremely significan -- i.e. a lot more than you are stating above -- and I don't see that changing if we're talking about a signed Staal in 1 or 2 years.
That offer is after he resigns with the Pens but he is still not happy with his role. Shero most likely in this scenario has no leverage if Staal (Most likely to have clauses) only has a handful of teams he'd be willing to go to, or has a particular team he wants to go to.


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Old
06-03-2012, 09:24 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I still think the ideal situation is to re-sign Staal, and to revisit his trade market next season.
I agree with this. As long as such a signing does not give him too high a salary and or full NMC/NTC.

Next year is one where Staal should be a genuine steal as regards cap-hit if he does anything like this season.

But absent a quick re-signing, I would want him traded, because we cannot risk getting nothing after the season - and/or getting watered down offers at the deadline, where dealing him would most likely be off the table with the playoffs a bigger priority.

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06-03-2012, 10:13 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
What does that have to do with anything? If a 'bad' team in a suspect market trades for Staal, they could be in the same kind of situation, and whichever player doesn't work out in a new team will lose value when he is then to be traded. Columbus gave up too much in any case, but that is also a function of them being the team they are and not being able to sign marquee players in free agency without overpaying on salary. It isn't our situation, nor Philly's or LA's for that matter.

There are long contracts and then there are long contracts. It is one kind of risk going for an almost 30 Hossa signed beyond 40, and then Richards contract, and no matter what - being signed for one year with UFA then looming gives another kind of worth than being one you can count on as an asset for a long time (lets be honest here, if Staal doesn't want to sign for us in a month, then his value drops, just like all of us here have told Devils and Nashville fans that they couldn't expect a full return on guys like Parise and Suter with only one year before UFA).

Being signed long term only drags on your value if the contract pushes far too long in terms of age, or if the player in question has a very dodgy injury record. For Richards, the number of years on his contract makes him MORE valuable.
It's not really that hard to understand. Trading for a player who signed a retirement contract for another team is a risk. It worked for LA and CBJ got screwed. It could have just as easily been the other way around.

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06-03-2012, 11:10 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I agree with this. As long as such a signing does not give him too high a salary and or full NMC/NTC.

Next year is one where Staal should be a genuine steal as regards cap-hit if he does anything like this season.

But absent a quick re-signing, I would want him traded, because we cannot risk getting nothing after the season - and/or getting watered down offers at the deadline, where dealing him would most likely be off the table with the playoffs a bigger priority.
I trust Shero has a good beat on the likelihood of retaining Staal if a deal is not already in the works. If he feels like a deal can be reached through further negotiating, even if that point is months into the season, I think the prudent move is to stand pat.

I'm heavily in favor of re-signing Staal in general, so I won't hide that. He's an extremely valuable player for this franchise and barring a tremendous offer that UFA's to be never seem to garner, I'd do everything in my power to make sure he re-signs. I do agree that if Staal is set on moving on, the clear move is to trade him. I just don't see it happening that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh00terMcGavin View Post
Exactly. That's been the constant issue with Staal...consistency. I'm not saying the guy has to be a point per game player, but he needs to show up every game if we're gonna pay him what he wants.
Only the elite players in this game can consistently perform at that level. If the Staal we saw at different points of the season was the Staal we'd be getting on a regular basis moving forward, you're talking about a $7 million player. He isn't that. But he is easily a $5.5-6m player in his current state, 'inconsistency' and all.

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Old
06-03-2012, 11:38 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
It's not really that hard to understand. Trading for a player who signed a retirement contract for another team is a risk. It worked for LA and CBJ got screwed. It could have just as easily been the other way around.
...and then LA went and acquired the same Carter and it would seem to be working famously. Perhaps it is Columbus that is the outlier here..... Just as one doesn't have to be hesitant to draft a Russian high in the draft because Columbus got burned on Zherdev and Filatov.

It is a no-brainer that things can go both wrong and right, but when the player is inarguably a good one, then the trade value of that player is obviously higher when you have him locked down for his entire prime, with few dodgy years put on top for cap-squeezing reasons.

The reason I am asking "what is the point" is that in Carter's case his long term contract clearly didn't hurt his value when he was traded to Columbus. That there is risk.... obviously. What hurt his value when traded to LA (and lets remember that the return was not insignificant still), was that he didn't perform there. Poor performance detracts. Long term contract does nothing of the sort - as long as it is perceived to be a good contract! Then it only adds value.

We can do this in a different way though. Who has more value?
1: Staal with one year left at 4 million before UFA.
2: Staal after signing a 10 year extension at 6 million on July 1st 2012 (that'd leave him an UFA at the same age Richards would be).

Which contract would you rather try and acquire, and which one would merit the bigger return.

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06-04-2012, 12:20 AM
  #87
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I'd say a team would rather negotiate their own terms with a player. Which is what GMs would be able to do if Shero is exploring trading Staal.

What would a GM trade for Staal if they have an understanding with Staal's agent on an extension. Quite a bit I'd imagine.

100% of GMs calling about Staal now would pay to get him on their team and locked up before he hits free agency.

I don't pretend to be a grandmaster of trade value. But I do know Shero isn't moving him for anything less than an offer that blows him away.

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06-04-2012, 03:02 AM
  #88
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I'd say a team would rather negotiate their own terms with a player.
Depends which team you are. If you do not have a franchise/team players would generally really like to be at, you'd likely prefer to get a contract a player had signed with just such a team - a team they had given a discount.

I mean, don't you expect Staal - or whichever of our pillars - to give the Pens a better rate than he would any other team?

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06-04-2012, 10:27 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post

I mean, don't you expect Staal - or whichever of our pillars - to give the Pens a better rate than he would any other team?
yes i do....i would also expect that once we did that it would be the last time it ever happend.

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06-12-2012, 05:18 PM
  #90
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Haven't checked out the trade board in a long time.....till today.

I see Jordan Staal is still simultaneously one of the worst players in the league, along with being one of the most coveted. Which really makes for riveting conversation.......ugh.

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06-12-2012, 05:21 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by td_ice View Post
Haven't checked out the trade board in a long time.....till today.

I see Jordan Staal is still simultaneously one of the worst players in the league, along with being one of the most coveted. Which really makes for riveting conversation.......ugh.
It is hilarious, especially considering the same guys will make 17 trade proposals for him, but in all of those threads will talk about how he's a 3rd line center, and nothing more.

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06-12-2012, 05:31 PM
  #92
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We'll probably have to package him with Martin to get any bites

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06-12-2012, 09:29 PM
  #93
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We'll probably have to package him with Martin to get any bites
You don't think he'll detract too much from Martin's value?

QUESTION: IF you could keep Staal long term, give him a little more in terms of offensive talent (and have him share instead of monopolize the defensive situation assignments with Sid and Geno) AND in the process give Sid and Geno both a pair of good wingers (not both all starts but comparable to what Geno had this year), then would you be willing not only to move Martin and TK BUT also willing to move Nisky and one of Orpik or Michalek? It would mean maybe signing a guy like Bryan Allen, relying on kids on defense, and waiting until the deadline to make impact moves to upgrade the defense. BUT, if that meant keeping Staal and setting up Sid and Geno properly and Staal in a situation that gives him more of an offensive role, is it worth it? Is it the right thing to do?

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06-12-2012, 10:00 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by td_ice View Post
Haven't checked out the trade board in a long time.....till today.

I see Jordan Staal is still simultaneously one of the worst players in the league, along with being one of the most coveted. Which really makes for riveting conversation.......ugh.
I love the logic in there, Skinner has also became a more important player despite leading his team to crapness in both NHL seasons he's played. He his a good player don't get me wrong but some Carolina fans are really delusional

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06-12-2012, 10:51 PM
  #95
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You don't think he'll detract too much from Martin's value?

QUESTION: IF you could keep Staal long term, give him a little more in terms of offensive talent (and have him share instead of monopolize the defensive situation assignments with Sid and Geno) AND in the process give Sid and Geno both a pair of good wingers (not both all starts but comparable to what Geno had this year), then would you be willing not only to move Martin and TK BUT also willing to move Nisky and one of Orpik or Michalek? It would mean maybe signing a guy like Bryan Allen, relying on kids on defense, and waiting until the deadline to make impact moves to upgrade the defense. BUT, if that meant keeping Staal and setting up Sid and Geno properly and Staal in a situation that gives him more of an offensive role, is it worth it? Is it the right thing to do?
It would be an interesting idea. Scary but crazy enough it could work.

Bortuzzo looked good before he got hurt.

Strait played well esp in the playoffs.

Despres is ready for sure imo.

Morrow is a wild card.

We have enough young talent but it would take a HUGE set on shero to do that.

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06-13-2012, 12:59 AM
  #96
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sign Staal for 15 years.

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06-13-2012, 05:01 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
I love the logic in there, Skinner has also became a more important player despite leading his team to crapness in both NHL seasons he's played. He his a good player don't get me wrong but some Carolina fans are really delusional
I haven't read the threads, but it's not delusional to think that we would need to add something in a Staal for Skinner swap. We may be able to get it straight up due to Staal's experience and whatnot, but we aren't getting the extra coming back our way I'm pretty sure.

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You don't think he'll detract too much from Martin's value?

QUESTION: IF you could keep Staal long term, give him a little more in terms of offensive talent (and have him share instead of monopolize the defensive situation assignments with Sid and Geno) AND in the process give Sid and Geno both a pair of good wingers (not both all starts but comparable to what Geno had this year), then would you be willing not only to move Martin and TK BUT also willing to move Nisky and one of Orpik or Michalek? It would mean maybe signing a guy like Bryan Allen, relying on kids on defense, and waiting until the deadline to make impact moves to upgrade the defense. BUT, if that meant keeping Staal and setting up Sid and Geno properly and Staal in a situation that gives him more of an offensive role, is it worth it? Is it the right thing to do?
So we'd have Letang, Engo, Michalek, Despres, Allen, Strait, Bortuzzo and Lovejoy as our top 8 D? I know jack about Bryan Allen. Is he a capable top 4? Didn't he sing summer of 69?

It would depend on who the talent is coming back. I'm leaning towards no unless it leaves enough cap to bring in a top 4 deadline upgrade. Really, it entirely depends on how Shero and Disco feel about Despres, one of Strait/Bortuzzo and potentially Morrow.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 06-13-2012 at 05:10 AM.
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06-13-2012, 08:53 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You don't think he'll detract too much from Martin's value?

QUESTION: IF you could keep Staal long term, give him a little more in terms of offensive talent (and have him share instead of monopolize the defensive situation assignments with Sid and Geno) AND in the process give Sid and Geno both a pair of good wingers (not both all starts but comparable to what Geno had this year), then would you be willing not only to move Martin and TK BUT also willing to move Nisky and one of Orpik or Michalek? It would mean maybe signing a guy like Bryan Allen, relying on kids on defense, and waiting until the deadline to make impact moves to upgrade the defense. BUT, if that meant keeping Staal and setting up Sid and Geno properly and Staal in a situation that gives him more of an offensive role, is it worth it? Is it the right thing to do?
I think this should have been the plan ALL along, to be honest. Surround your BEST players, your impact players, the players that make you win games, which in our case is the big three centers, and then use the embarrassment of blueline pipeline riches to fill the gaps on defense. And now you're also spending $7 million on goaltending. So, build around the centers, spend big money on goalies...something has to give, and it SHOULD be the expensive underachievers on defense, IMO.

As much as I have soured on Fleury the last few seasons, I'd still rather have him as a $5 million backup this upcoming season than seeing all the veterans back on defense (and 2-3 of our best defensemen playing for the baby Pens).

The plan should be to re-sign Crosby and Staal as quickly as possible, get what you can for Paul Martin and then look to move a few among Tyler Kennedy, Matt Cooke, Zbynek Michalek and Brooks Orpik. Targeting a top-six winger and early picks/long-range prospects to keep the pipeline going.

Give Despres, Strait, Bortuzzo, Morrow, Tangradi and Jeffrey a CHANCE with this organization. They've all earned that right.

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06-13-2012, 09:13 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You don't think he'll detract too much from Martin's value?

QUESTION: IF you could keep Staal long term, give him a little more in terms of offensive talent (and have him share instead of monopolize the defensive situation assignments with Sid and Geno) AND in the process give Sid and Geno both a pair of good wingers (not both all starts but comparable to what Geno had this year), then would you be willing not only to move Martin and TK BUT also willing to move Nisky and one of Orpik or Michalek? It would mean maybe signing a guy like Bryan Allen, relying on kids on defense, and waiting until the deadline to make impact moves to upgrade the defense. BUT, if that meant keeping Staal and setting up Sid and Geno properly and Staal in a situation that gives him more of an offensive role, is it worth it? Is it the right thing to do?
Well it's not going to happen so there's that. Also, it's pretty risky. Trading Martin, Michalek/Orpik, and Nisky in one offseason is a lot of turnover. Also, why bother signing Bryan Allen if you are getting rid of Michalek or Orpik. Allen is going to cost at least 3.5 mil per IMO. In which case, keep both Michalek and Orpik and just trade Martin, Nisky, and Lovejoy (although I'd prefer to keep Nisky). That would leave you with:

Letang - Orpik
Despres - Michalek
Strait/Bort - Engel
Bort/Strait

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06-13-2012, 10:40 AM
  #100
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I love the logic in there, Skinner has also became a more important player despite leading his team to crapness in both NHL seasons he's played. He his a good player don't get me wrong but some Carolina fans are really delusional
It's been more than Canes fans. Some just don't understand Shero's position. He won't deal Staal for fair value (pointless) and won't be undersold (obviously). It will take overpayment to get Staal, and some don't want to do that.

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