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The Official Jordan Staal Wacky Speculation Thread IV

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Old
06-14-2012, 09:18 AM
  #151
khaoskennedy
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Originally Posted by Muscles4Malkin View Post
Done. Tangradi will learn to use his size more if he's not ideal in top-6. He just has to play with grit and skate hard.
that would work if the cap was 70 mil, just barely tho

Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Jason Pominville ($5.300m)
Ryan Malone ($4.500m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Luke Adam ($0.875m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Eric Tangradi ($0.726m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.675m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.575m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($7.000m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Brooks Orpik ($3.750m) / Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m)
Brian Strait ($0.605m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
Robert Bortuzzo ($0.578m) /
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,625,167; BONUSES: $87,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $674,833

not saying I'd want to do all that, just wanted to see if it would work lol

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06-14-2012, 09:39 AM
  #152
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WTH... what is all this Buffalo insanity all of a sudden? Guys Buffalo is a lousy trade partner for us, especially where Staal is concerned. They have a roster full of 2nd/3rd line tweeners and weak D. Unless they're up for trading Meyers there's not much there to consider.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The only deal in the trade board Staal thread worth a lick is this:

Pominville
Adam

for

Staal
Kennedy


Don't kid yourselves, that's not worth a lick either.

Pominville and Adam are both better than Kennedy but neither has anywhere near enough upside to create good value when the price is Staal. Unless we're getting their 1st round pick too, that is a bad deal for us.

I like Pomers, and Adam shows good promise as a third liner with offensive upside but that is just a badly lopsided trade as is. Kennedy has almost as much value (from my anti-Kennedy perspective) given his playoff pedigree and some 20G efforts, as Adam. Who is all upside in terms of value. Think about that. You're pretty much trading Staal straight up for Pominville.

I'd rather trade picks in a weak draft for those guys (and Martin if they will take his contract), than Staal. In fact we could probably trade Martin for Pominville straight up. Their D is short on depth and Martin would be an upgrade for them... .



In other news, Kelly Chase from NHL Network also thinks the Coyotes might be interested in Staal / have the horses to make a good trade. I don't know if that speaks ill of my thinking or well of my thinking but at least I'm not the only one thinking it.


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06-14-2012, 09:42 AM
  #153
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Martin for Pominville straight up?? Thier captain Pominville??
That might not be a great deal but I think your selling Pominvile short. Why would they trade him for Martin or picks in a weak draft?

Why would Buffallo trade any good roster players for picks in a weak draft?


Also thier D is short on depth? Sekera and Leopold are thier 4th and 5th best Dmen. I think they like some of thier prospects, McNabb Pysyk. I dont see them lacking depth.

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06-14-2012, 09:47 AM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regard View Post
Martin for Pominville straight up?? Thier captain Pominville??
That might not be a great deal but I think your selling Pominvile short. Why would they trade him for Martin or picks in a weak draft?

Why would Buffallo trade any good roster players for picks in a weak draft?


Also thier D is short on depth? Sekera and Leopold are thier 4th and 5th best Dmen. I think they like some of thier prospects, McNabb Pysyk. I dont see them lacking depth.
I'm talking about 1st / 2nd round picks. Maybe plus a player or prospect.

Off the top of my head, Martin and our 1st should easily get Pominville, and maybe something more. Whether it would be Adam I don't know. I only know Staal for Pominville is not a good deal. He may be their captain and a good player but here we're talking about someone who would be a step above Kunitz and a step below Neal in terms of what he can bring. Buffalo is a team built around "pretty good players" and one really overpriced player (Vanek).

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06-14-2012, 09:48 AM
  #155
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Pominville just put up 30 goals 73 points, he can be a consistent 25 goal 65 point player who is good at both ends of the rink. He's worth a lot.

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06-14-2012, 09:52 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I'm talking about 1st / 2nd round picks. Maybe plus a player or prospect.

Off the top of my head, Martin and our 1st should easily get Pominville, and maybe something more. Whether it would be Adam I don't know. I only know Staal for Pominville is not a good deal. He may be their captain and a good player but here we're talking about someone who would be a step above Kunitz and a step below Neal in terms of what he can bring. Buffalo is a team built around "pretty good players" and one really overpriced player (Vanek).
considering he just put up 70 points and is their captain, I think you might be selling him a little short.

I agree he isn't what we want back in a Staal trade, but he's worth quite a bit.

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06-14-2012, 09:52 AM
  #157
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That's a joke. Martin+1st is not getting pominville. I'm not convinced trading Staal for a guy 5 years older is wise, but the value is there.

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06-14-2012, 09:53 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I'm talking about 1st / 2nd round picks. Maybe plus a player or prospect.

Off the top of my head, Martin and our 1st should easily get Pominville, and maybe something more. Whether it would be Adam I don't know. I only know Staal for Pominville is not a good deal.
Buffalos not trading good roster players for picks and prospects.

They made Pominville thier teams captain and he responded with 30 goals and you think Martin and a 1st would easily get him? Why on earth would they trade him for Martin and a 1st in a "weak draft"? Whether or not Martin can be a great fit somewhere else thats nonsense.

Again Regehr, Myers, Erhroff, Sekera, Leopold, Weber, Sulzer seems like a pretty good defense to me. Depends on how Myers performs but regardless why add a 5 million struggling defensemen to that? If it needs tweaked they can do that without making a move for Martin.

I agree i wouldnt want TK added to that deal but your selling Pominville way short.


Also Pominvilles contract used to be a knock against him, but looking at recent UFA deals its actually not that bad anymore.

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06-14-2012, 09:57 AM
  #159
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Uhh yeah no way in hell does Martin get you Pominville. I don't really like Staal for him, but I see why it's suggested.

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06-14-2012, 09:57 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
There are guys on this team though (Martin, Kennedy) who are not skilled enough to have it make up for their lack of size
Explain to me why Kennedy finishing the season well, ending with a higher than 0.5 PPG average despite no longer getting the PP time that propelled his scoring the year before, being PPG in the playoffs, constantly winning puck battles on the wall, even FIGHTING (usually to draws or wins) is an issue when it comes to physicality... or when it comes to discussing players with a future on this team.

Last year he had a concussion and suffered for a while when coming back, but the only reason he was again considered a problem is that A: he didn't score goals like in the preceding season (has to do with opportunities, outside of the PP he scored the same as always/more), and B: that guys like Dupuis and Cooke had career years offensively.

It has to be a juicy situation for me to want to trade Kennedy. Cap-wise, he certainly isn't a bad contract and being an RFA after the season, he also has more asset value going forward.

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06-14-2012, 09:58 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
considering he just put up 70 points and is their captain, I think you might be selling him a little short.

I agree he isn't what we want back in a Staal trade, but he's worth quite a bit.
Because he is their captain he'd be harder to get in general, but if you strip away the Cs and As and just look at the player and the upside... I don't see how anyone would say Staal and Pommers are equal value. He had a very good season but he's also had three seasons in a row where he avg 22G.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/...ZncKUJaoxivLYF

He IS a good player, but he is not consistent enough that you trade Jordan Staal for him. He's also not very physical, and we need someone who is for the playoffs. Neal and Kunitz are both gems in that regard. They can handle the abuse in the playoffs. I'm not sure Pommers helps us in that dept. He shines a bit more on that Buffalo team because they lack offensive depth. I LIKE him, but you guys are over-rating him IMO because he's a captain and had a break-out type year this year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
That's a joke. Martin+1st is not getting pominville.
You're letting your hate for Martin (I want him traded too) get in the way of evaluating his worth to other teams, and you're also underestimating what a 1st round pick would mean to a lot of teams in terms of being able to possibly flip that pick in another trade (if they can't get the guy they want). It's not a sure bet Buffalo would do it but it's not a sure bet they wouldn't either.

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06-14-2012, 10:00 AM
  #162
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Im a rochester amerks season ticket holder and a pens fan. Adam is very over rated, has good hands but its lazy as all hell. Drove me nuts everytime he was on the ice.

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06-14-2012, 10:05 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by gdsmack267 View Post
Im a rochester amerks season ticket holder and a pens fan. Adam is very over rated, has good hands but its lazy as all hell. Drove me nuts everytime he was on the ice.
Yah that's the other flaw in the deal. Kennedy arguably has as much value as Adam, but not as much upside, if he can become a consistently hard worker like Kennedy. Staal-Kennedy for Pominville-Adam is just a really low value for what we could get for Staal.

Sutter - McBain/Faulk is better value
Vermette - Klesa is better value
Glencross - Giordano is better value

Kulemin, Schenn, 5th is better value

Just about every two-player trade we've talked about, is better value than this one. Buffalo does not have the goods to make a multiplayer deal work. It's that simple. The assets we'd want to talk about (notably the 12th pick, Meyers and Sekera), they won't package into a multiplayer deal (although they would trade Pominville for Staal in a heartbeat IMO).

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06-14-2012, 10:05 AM
  #164
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I dont see anyone saying Pominville is worth Staal. But Martin + 1st still isnt going to get Pominville.

We might be letting his "C" and breakout affect us but those same factors will be affecting Buffalo's valuation of him, they need someone to score like that consistantly. Keeping him might get them that, trading him only hurts what thier trying to accomplish.

And again Buffalo does not need Martin. If they need to make a move they can make tweaks without adding a 5 million Dman whos STRUGGLING badly. Hate or no hate taking on Martin is a risk, only certain teams in the right situation should take that risk. (Meaning they really need a dman, have the cap room, and maybe play a defensive system like when Martin was at his best. That doesnt describe Buffalo)
Id probably take Buffalos 4th or 5th dman for Martin right now just to be out from under his contract and I dont "hate" him.

Also trading for Martin when you already have Leinos contract is just asking for it.

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06-14-2012, 10:12 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by regard View Post
Also trading for Martin when you already have Leinos contract is just asking for it.
That part is 100% true. I forgot about that atrocity. And we think we hate the Martin deal... imagine if we had the Leino deal on our books. Holy ****. They just paid $6M and a 4.5M hit for a F who scored 25pts.

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06-14-2012, 10:13 AM
  #166
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It's just dumb to even offer Martin+1st for Pominville. Buffalo isn't trading their captain who's a coming off one of his best seasons for anything short of Staal. They have no need for another D-man let alone Martin. And the value isn't there.

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06-14-2012, 10:19 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yah that's the other flaw in the deal. Kennedy arguably has as much value as Adam, but not as much upside, if he can become a consistently hard worker like Kennedy. Staal-Kennedy for Pominville-Adam is just a really low value for what we could get for Staal.

Sutter - McBain/Faulk is better value
Vermette - Klesa is better value
Glencross - Giordano is better value

Kulemin, Schenn, 5th is better value

Just about every two-player trade we've talked about, is better value than this one. Buffalo does not have the goods to make a multiplayer deal work. It's that simple. The assets we'd want to talk about (notably the 12th pick, Meyers and Sekera), they won't package into a multiplayer deal (although they would trade Pominville for Staal in a heartbeat IMO).
Some of those may be "better value" but they don't make us a better team than adding Pominville. Over the past 6 seasons he has scored 68, 80, 66, 62, 52 (in 73 games), and 73 points. That's pretty damn consistent. Those are the kind of point totals we all hope Staal can hit. Staal is a more well rounded player in terms of being a center, is great defensively, etc. but Pominville is a hell of a player. He's still 29 and in the prime of his career. IMO, he's the best player in that list above. Throw in Adam who has upside and add a 1st or 2nd rounder and that is a decent deal IMO.

I'm not sure why you are all over this Vermette, Klesla deal. Personally, I think that is garbage. Just different opinions though.

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06-14-2012, 10:29 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Some of those may be "better value" but they don't make us a better team than adding Pominville.

I'm not sure why you are all over this Vermette, Klesla deal. Personally, I think that is garbage. Just different opinions though.

Every one of those deals gives us either a W with 2nd line upside or a good Staal replacement, and a good D (or someone who could become good in Schenn's case). Vermette is a very good two-way F. Great skater, good skills, great on PK and can play 2PP also. If we could have Pominville or Vermette for free, you could argue Vermette would actually make this team tougher to play against even though he doesn't have Pominville's offensive upside. I will take a #3/4 quality W + a #3/4 quality D for Staal any day over a #2 quality W + an afterthought like Adam.

BTW Klesla would be an upgrade over Martin, if we could cut MArtin's salary loose. PHX also has other valuable players that might get Staal like Hanzal, Morris, etc. None of those guys is ideal return but all are better than Pominville - Adam IMO. If Buffalo added Sekera into that mix instead of Adam then you got something to talk about at least, but they are not trading one of their better D.

We can argue it 100 ways but to me Buffalo is a lousy trade partner for Staal and guys like Pommer, whether it be my deal or something more, could be had for less than Staal IMO.


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06-14-2012, 10:34 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Every one of those deals gives us either a W with 2nd line upside or a good Staal replacement, and a good D (or someone who could become good in Schenn's case). Vermette is a very good two-way F. Great skater, good skills, great on PK and can play 2PP also. If we could have Pominville or Vermette for free, you could argue Vermette would actually make this team tougher to play against even though he doesn't have Pominville's offensive upside. I will take a #3/4 quality W + a #3/4 quality D for Staal any day over a #2 quality W + an afterthought like Adam.

BTW Klesla would be an upgrade over Martin, if we could cut MArtin's salary loose. PHX also has other valuable players that might get Staal like Hanzal, Morris, etc. None of those guys is ideal return but all are better than Pominville - Adam IMO. If Buffalo added Sekera into that mix instead of Adam then you got something to talk about at least, but they are not trading one of their better D.

We can argue it 100 ways but to be Buffalo is a lousy trade partner for Staal and guys like Pommer, whether it be my deal or something more, could be had for less than Staal IMO.
why would we want a Dman back in the Staal trade? even if we trade Martin we will still have 8 Dmen on NHL contracts

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06-14-2012, 10:35 AM
  #170
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If we could move Staal for a #1 D-man that's an upgrade on the PP over Letang. Would you ever consider moving Tanger for a king's ransom at forward? We could have our choice of top line RW's+.

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06-14-2012, 10:38 AM
  #171
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If we could move Staal for a #1 D-man that's an upgrade on the PP over Letang. Would you ever consider moving Tanger for a king's ransom at forward? We could have our choice of top line RW's+.
just curious, what #1 dman u think we could get for Staal?

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06-14-2012, 10:38 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Every one of those deals gives us either a W with 2nd line upside or a good Staal replacement, and a good D (or someone who could become good in Schenn's case). Vermette is a very good two-way F. Great skater, good skills, great on PK and can play 2PP also. If we could have Pominville or Vermette for free, you could argue Vermette would actually make this team tougher to play against even though he doesn't have Pominville's offensive upside. I will take a #3/4 quality W + a #3/4 quality D for Staal any day over a #2 quality W + an afterthought like Adam.

BTW Klesla would be an upgrade over Martin, if we could cut MArtin's salary loose. PHX also has other valuable players that might get Staal like Hanzal, Morris, etc. None of those guys is ideal return but all are better than Pominville - Adam IMO. If Buffalo added Sekera into that mix instead of Adam then you got something to talk about at least, but they are not trading one of their better D.

We can argue it 100 ways but to be Buffalo is a lousy trade partner for Staal and guys like Pommer, whether it be my deal or something more, could be had for less than Staal IMO.
Fair enough. I just think you are really undervaluing Pominville. Plus I don't see defense as a problem in terms of personnel so I don't want Klesla. I just think if you are trading Staal, it would be best to get the player you are missing the most and to me that is another top 6 winger for Sid. Getting Pominville finally gives us the top 6 we want and we can fill in the rest internally. I'm not convinced the value is there with just Pominville, Adam but that is a decent starting point. You can pry a pick, prospect, or other piece in the deal as well.

Defensively, we should dump Martin and let the kids go. I believe we have the defensive personnel to succeed.

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06-14-2012, 10:41 AM
  #173
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just curious, what #1 dman u think we could get for Staal?
If the rumors are true about Phoenix and Yandle, that's a good start

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06-14-2012, 10:42 AM
  #174
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Keep Pominville at that salary.

Spend another ~$2M and go after Parise, even if it means dumping one or more of Kennedy, Martin and Orpik.

Though I'd still throw my big money at Suter.

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06-14-2012, 10:42 AM
  #175
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Pominville is exactly what we need offensively. We need a player who can create on his own to take some pressure off of 87, a RH shot, a great PP player and in his prime. Pominville is one of the players who literally, can make it so our top 6 is pretty much uncontainable.

I think Staal defensively can be replaced, and offensively, quite frankly Pominville is the better player. So if you can add a defensive center (maybe a McClement?) and Pominville, you are a better hockey team.

Don't forget though, most importantly, you are putting your most important player in a position to succeed.
This post is so wrong I don't know where to start. For one we don't need offense that is a fact. For two he isn't even in Staal's league defensively. Who are you going to replace Staal with? Are there a lot of other Selke caliber players out there that I'm missing? McClement is certainly not that player.

We are a worse team with that deal. Thank God Shero is smarter than this. People have been told Staal is overrated for so long by Leaf & Canes fans on this board they are starting to believe it. Stop looking at stat sheets & start watching the games.

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