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06-09-2012, 11:01 AM
  #76
BleedBlue42
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
Why so negative about the Blues' chances of signing an UFA? They certainly have the Cap room. And with not resigning Jackman/Cola, maybe trading Stewart (I doubt that move) they can take on the salary without actually increasing the team cap number. That would mean: Cole, Tarasenko and probably Schwartz are in the regular line-up. But those entry-level deals are going to do wonders for the Blues cap flexibility.....even if the team's internal cap doesn't change much with the new ownership.

Can the Blues get Suter? Maybe...but probably not. Garrison? Maybe. But I think they've got as good a chance as anyone. You can bet Armstrong has a plan and a Plan B and a Plan C.
Sorry, I wasn't exactly trying to be negative. I was trying to be realistic in that I don't think teams are going to want to give away their stud 2 way defensemen to us so I don't want us to get the impression that if we can't get this guy, then our offseason was a failure. We are not getting Garrison or Suter. We sure as hell should put down a hefty offer, but at the end of the day, I guarantee you that the Wings outbid us in getting Suter while the Panthers outbid us in getting Garrison. Both of those organizations are loaded and from sources I've seen, Florida appears pretty confident that they can get that deal done. So Plan A failed.

So Plan B: Getting a stud 2 way D from another team through trading

Teams nowadays build from the goaltender on out. That is why Edmonton is contemplating getting Ryan Murray in the draft opposed to Yakupov. Teams nowadays recognize the importance of having stud 2 way defensemen, and they aren't going to give them to the blues by receiving forwards in return. There are plenty of good forwards in the league but very few 2 way stud D. That would also be going in the opposite direction of building a team from the goaltender on out.

I expect the Blues to get a Roman Polak clone, and that's all I really think we need. Sure we have backup plans and goals which is why I think the Blues will resort to plan B: getting a shutdown -stay at home- defensemen because plan A of getting a Suter or Garrison didn't work.


Last edited by BleedBlue42: 06-09-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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06-09-2012, 12:17 PM
  #77
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Why don't we wait until the draft and free agency before we say we failed. Good god, give Army some time to do his magic.

Lets not forget that Jackman, Colaiacovo, and Arnott all will not be returning, so we can sign someone and have a similar payroll next season.

With the projected revenue increasing through raised ticket prices, and the reduction in expenses by cutting ties with some of the executives, Armstrong will have more financial flexibility.

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06-09-2012, 12:20 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by FredBrathwaite View Post
Sorry, I wasn't exactly trying to be negative. I was trying to be realistic in that I don't think teams are going to want to give away their stud 2 way defensemen to us so I don't want us to get the impression that if we can't get this guy, then our offseason was a failure. We are not getting Garrison or Suter. We sure as hell should put down a hefty offer, but at the end of the day, I guarantee you that the Wings outbid us in getting Suter while the Panthers outbid us in getting Garrison. Both of those organizations are loaded and from sources I've seen, Florida appears pretty confident that they can get that deal done. So Plan A failed.

So Plan B: Getting a stud 2 way D from another team through trading

Teams nowadays build from the goaltender on out. That is why Edmonton is contemplating getting Ryan Murray in the draft opposed to Yakupov. Teams nowadays recognize the importance of having stud 2 way defensemen, and they aren't going to give them to the blues by receiving forwards in return. There are plenty of good forwards in the league but very few 2 way stud D. That would also be going in the opposite direction of building a team from the goaltender on out.

I expect the Blues to get a Roman Polak clone, and that's all I really think we need. Sure we have backup plans and goals which is why I think the Blues will resort to plan B: getting a shutdown -stay at home- defensemen because plan A of getting a Suter or Garrison didn't work.
Maybe The Blues can get Garrison the way they were losing signees when they were bad? Maybe Garrison would rather take less money to play with a team (Blues) that will have a legitimate shot at winning The Stanely Cup for the next several years?

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06-09-2012, 12:25 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Robb_K View Post
Maybe The Blues can get Garrison the way they were losing signees when they were bad? Maybe Garrison would rather take less money to play with a team (Blues) that will have a legitimate shot at winning The Stanely Cup for the next several years?
It is certainly possible, Robb.

http://www.mynhltraderumors.com/tag/jason-garrison/

Use your search function to look for garrison. Apparently, he wants to resign with Panthers anyways. They had a huge turnaround this year, and they made the playoffs.

All I'm asking is, why would a team with a legit 2 way D Stud trade that for any forwards or draft picks we have? Those types of D are necessary for their teams to win stanley cups. If we don't get one, then I am satisfied with a shut down D who can at least shoot the puck. It has worked before

Chara-Seidenberg

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06-09-2012, 12:36 PM
  #80
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The LH dman that we are going to get, will be paired with Shattenkirk, not Pietrangelo.

The coaching staff trusted the 7th defenseman, most inexperienced, and biggest liability on the top pairing because they were next to Pietrangelo. Give Cole an entire season of experience and he should be fine in the playoffs, which is what this team should only be worried about now.

The Jackman-Pietrangelo pairing failed because of what happened to the Shattenkirk pairing.

Shattenkirk needs a partner that is an upgrade over Jackman, so he doesn't get exposed like he was in the playoffs. If we can find an upgrade, we just resign Jackman. It really is that simple.

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06-09-2012, 12:39 PM
  #81
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If they are considering trading his rights, it is far from a done deal that he is returning to Florida.

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06-09-2012, 12:54 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FredBrathwaite View Post

I expect the Blues to get a Roman Polak clone, and that's all I really think we need. Sure we have backup plans and goals which is why I think the Blues will resort to plan B: getting a shutdown -stay at home- defensemen because plan A of getting a Suter or Garrison didn't work.
I agree with that way of thinking in some ways because having a stay-at-home defenseman to protect our goaltenders is something the Blues really lacked in the LA series. I think whoever it is needs to be ready to engage in the confrontational gritty role like Jackman does, handout a face wash and get mouthy because while Polak is strong as an ox and tough he usually avoids confrontation unless his door is opened.

Garrison is definitely not that person regardless of his size and I feel St. Louis will probably lose in the bidding wars for Suter. Francis Bouillon would be a good player to have for his toughness but he is smaller and wants to resign in Nashville.

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06-09-2012, 01:06 PM
  #83
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Why do people want to replace Jackman with a downgrade? If we miss on the top guys, it will be down to Stuart and Jackman, and maybe Allen, anything else is just a downgrade.

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06-09-2012, 01:25 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Why do people want to replace Jackman with a downgrade? If we miss on the top guys, it will be down to Stuart and Jackman, and maybe Allen, anything else is just a downgrade.
You and I are in the minority on this one. I would actually love to see Jackman retire as a Blue. I think Jackman provides too much in the way of gritty, confrontational play (something the Blues haven't had much of since Big Walt retired)

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06-09-2012, 01:47 PM
  #85
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The coaching staff trusted the 7th defenseman, most inexperienced, and biggest liability on the top pairing because they were next to Pietrangelo. Give Cole an entire season of experience and he should be fine in the playoffs, which is what this team should only be worried about now.

The Jackman-Pietrangelo pairing failed because of what happened to the Shattenkirk pairing.

Shattenkirk needs a partner that is an upgrade over Jackman, so he doesn't get exposed like he was in the playoffs. If we can find an upgrade, we just resign Jackman. It really is that simple.
Not a bad idea. Honestly, Ian Cole was drafted to be our left handed version of Polak. He is already 6'1 and 225lbs, and I know many people on these boards don't trust Cole, but when is he ever going to get to play big boy minutes? Are we going to keep giving him 20 games each season until he retires? Plus, Cole can play some offense as scouts have seen at Notre Dame. A Petro-Cole duo would be something I'd be willing to work with. Cole was drafted 18th overall in the first round for a reason.

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06-09-2012, 01:52 PM
  #86
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I think Cole plays a game like Polak. A strong stay-at-home defense with good puck moving but just lacks the confrontational role that the Blues need as long as the Blues keep Jackman I'm in favor of giving Cole a full-time spot and letting Huskins go.

The only upside I saw to Huskins play this year is that he picks his head up while carrying the puck but he is injured a lot and doesn't offer much in the way of offensive or defensive play.

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06-09-2012, 01:55 PM
  #87
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I think Cole plays a game like Polak. A strong stay-at-home defense with good puck moving but just lacks the confrontational role that the Blues need as long as the Blues keep Jackman I'm in favor of giving Cole a full-time spot and letting Huskins go.

The only upside I saw to Huskins play this year is that he picks his head up while carrying the puck but he is injured a lot and doesn't offer much in the way of offensive or defensive play.
Honestly, I am ready to let Huskins go. His footspeed isn't up to par with the rest of the team, and I would be willing to re sign Jackman if he only asks for about 2.5M. He did say that he really wants to stay in St. Louis and would be willing to sign under a "home town discount."

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06-09-2012, 03:57 PM
  #88
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Any interest in Jordan Leopold? Word is he could be shopped soon by Buffalo.

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06-09-2012, 04:04 PM
  #89
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Any interest in Jordan Leopold? Word is he could be shopped soon by Buffalo.
He was someone I wanted at the trade deadline if we had the money. Doesn't hit a lot, but plays big minutes, blocks shots, and has a good, solid, well-rounded game.

He is an option if we want to save money or miss out on any free agents. I'd put him in the 2nd tier of players that we should be interested in, with Jackman and Stuart.

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06-09-2012, 04:04 PM
  #90
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Any interest in Jordan Leopold? Word is he could be shopped soon by Buffalo.
May as well re-sign Jackman/promote Cole.

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06-09-2012, 04:55 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by FredBrathwaite View Post
Honestly, I am ready to let Huskins go. His footspeed isn't up to par with the rest of the team, and I would be willing to re sign Jackman if he only asks for about 2.5M. He did say that he really wants to stay in St. Louis and would be willing to sign under a "home town discount."
Where is that quote?

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06-09-2012, 04:56 PM
  #92
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He was someone I wanted at the trade deadline if we had the money. Doesn't hit a lot, but plays big minutes, blocks shots, and has a good, solid, well-rounded game.

He is an option if we want to save money or miss out on any free agents. I'd put him in the 2nd tier of players that we should be interested in, with Jackman and Stuart.
I definitely like his contract at 3 million per, and it seems like he's a decent two-way guy who can log major minutes. Would be nice to get a Suter or Garrison type, but outside of those two the free agent market looks pretty weak. Aging veterans like Filip Kuba may be available if we get desperate, but I'm not so sure that would be a good option if we can make a trade instead. Buffalo and Carolina IMO both look like good trading candidates. Buffalo with possibly Leopold/Sekera, and Carolina with possibly Pitkanen/Harrison.

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06-09-2012, 05:16 PM
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May as well re-sign Jackman/promote Cole.
Even if Jackman demands 4+ Mil? Leopold costs less and unlike Jackman can be counted on to play top pairing minutes.

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06-09-2012, 05:29 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
Where is that quote?
he acknowledged a hometown discount as per rutherford

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hocke...3d77b8759.html

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06-09-2012, 05:30 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Why don't we wait until the draft and free agency before we say we failed. Good god, give Army some time to do his magic.

Lets not forget that Jackman, Colaiacovo, and Arnott all will not be returning, so we can sign someone and have a similar payroll next season.

With the projected revenue increasing through raised ticket prices, and the reduction in expenses by cutting ties with some of the executives, Armstrong will have more financial flexibility.
Don't think it's carved in stone that Jackman and Colaiacovo are not returning...

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06-09-2012, 05:34 PM
  #96
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The team has only one defenseman who they trust in all situations and roles and the rest are either one dimensional or still a work in progress (Shattenkirk) toward an all-roles trust zone.

IMO it's the wrong thinking to set the sights lower and debate about which type of mostly one dimensional defenseman should be added. If you have an infection you need penicillin, and just because aspirin is easier to obtain doesn't mean you start out with the assumption penicillin cannot be obtained, simply because it's more difficult to acquire than aspirin. Aspirin is better than nothing and helps with some symptoms; penicillin actually heals you. Not the perfect analogy but makes the point.

Pretty confident Doug Armstrong knows they need at least two defenseman on the team who can play in all situations against all competition. We're not talking about someone equal to Pietrangelo (someone dominant in all situations). We're talking about someone solid in all situations and probably an aspect or two that is dominant or at least very good. That's how I think of a #2 defenseman in the NHL.

There are three ways to get these guys. Free agency, trade or homegrown through the draft. The latter of these three isn't an option for the Blues this year because we're talking about having this type of player before they go into next year's playoffs. Now, if it doesn't happen and they acquire a more patchwork asset (an aspirin), they will still need this penicillin player down the road. Until he is acquired it will be a need. We knew this last year at this time, only the organization wasn't in as strong shape to spend assets if need be as it is this time. Perhaps if it doesn't happen for 12 months then by next year there will be an opportunity not currently foreseen. The bottom line is they need someone besides Pietrangelo who can eat up big minutes, play PK, play PP, handle himself against top competition. This summer, both Suter and Garrison fit this bill and the difference in pricetag is one is more established than the other. IMO Garrison is worth the minor risk because the risk is solely in the accuracy of a rocket slapshot. Some have suggested if that "dries up" then he's a Brewer/McKee signing but the ability to tee up a slapshot on the PP with such velocity doesn't just go away and that's never what those other guys brought.

On the day each of Garrison and Suter are signed elsewhere, we will move on without fanfare to further options. Trade becomes the next place they'll look if they want to fill this need this offseason, otherwise they'll find an aspirin and bide their time. But no matter what, Doug Armstrong saw that you can't have such a fragile D unit built with only one player who can be trusted in all situations. I have faith that he knows what the blueprint is for continuing to build. I don't think he'll overspend to get it; I think the approach will be that the team can still win plenty of regular season games and make the playoffs. If Pietrangelo goes out during the season for any length of time then there's a different story but until such an event happens they'll keep probing for the right opportunity. Yes teams value their top pair caliber defensemen but we're not talking about Hall of Famers here, such players do move in trades and free agency. It happens. Other teams have needs and with the Blues brimming with assets elsewhere a win-win deal might line up.

Bottom line is that the need is the need is the need. Settling for less is far easier; settling for less still leaves you with the issue. They can settle for less and definitely upgrade Colaiacovo, but I hope nobody mistakes such a move for Armstrong believing this is the long-term solution to the bigger need. The day that need is met is the day I'll believe they are really a genuine Cup threat. Isn't that what we're all hoping they become?

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06-09-2012, 06:13 PM
  #97
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Don't think it's carved in stone that Jackman and Colaiacovo are not returning...
Ok should have been more clear, if we are going after a big time defenseman, then they both won't be back. Russell and Cole will have two of the spots on the left side. Jackman returning is a very real possibility with Cole and Russell playing the other spots.

Colaiacovo's time here is done partly because of injuries, on-ice performance, and the need to play Cole.

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06-09-2012, 06:17 PM
  #98
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Aspirin is better than nothing and helps with some symptoms; penicillin actually heals you. Not the perfect analogy but makes the point.
Jason Garrison could end up being an herbal supplement, appealing and worthy of wasting the buck but ending up to prove irrelevant. While penicillin Suter definitely has the track record to back his work up throughout the years Garrison has a lot to prove in terms of healing. Garrison could be the cure if the price is right but I wouldn't go flushing the aspirin.

With Jackman you are getting aspirin every night and you can expect to get what's on the label. Colaiacovo and Huskins at this point are faith healers, basically hit or miss depending on how strong your faith in them is.

29 other infected teams are looking for penicillin as well..

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06-09-2012, 06:27 PM
  #99
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Going off of what P9 was saying, it is why Leopold is an intriguing option. He is able to play in all situations. Whether he is with Pietrangelo or Shattenkirk, he will be able to perform in all 3 zones, during even strength, penalty kill, and the powerplay.

According to the Buffalo board, Leopold really won't cost that much in a trade.

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06-09-2012, 06:41 PM
  #100
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Jason Garrison could end up being an herbal supplement, appealing and worthy of wasting the buck but ending up to prove irrelevant. While penicillin Suter definitely has the track record to back his work up throughout the years Garrison has a lot to prove in terms of healing. Garrison could be the cure if the price is right but I wouldn't go flushing the aspirin.

With Jackman you are getting aspirin every night and you can expect to get what's on the label. Colaiacovo and Huskins at this point are faith healers, basically hit or miss depending on how strong your faith in them is.

29 other infected teams are looking for penicillin as well..
I don't think the idea that Garrison could turn out to be much less should hinge on a poster's unfamiliarity with the player. Let's face it; most people resistant to Garrison are resistant because they aren't familiar with him. He is one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL playing against all top competition and coming out well ahead. Not only that, but he's accomplished that status from age 25-27, and now he enters his playing prime. I know Blues fans haven't watched a lot of Florida games but that doesn't make an uneasy notion about "what if this guy I don't know much about isn't the real deal" legitimate.

If he hadn't developed his offensive weapon on top of that, his Shea Weber-like shot, he'd simply be an extremely attractive defensive defenseman. I'd still want him over Barret Jackman but I wouldn't think of him as a two-way defenseman. I'd think of him being about worth what Jackman and Willie Mitchell are, that 3.5M a year type.

But he's more than that now. The Panthers moved him from the shutdown pair with Weaver and onto Campbell's pairing this season. What resulted was the booming shot he'd been diligently working on suddenly had more time and space because defenses had to account for Campbell too. That is how it would be paired with Pietrangelo (or Shattenkirk) on our PP also. At the beginning of this season we hadn't seen it from him so the buzz was late in building and that's why all this Garrison talk has people wondering if it's real.

It is a mistake to pencil in 17 goals every 81 games as an assumption (those are perennial All-Star defensive numbers nowadays from d-men) and I don't think reasonable Blues fans would do this. However he'd still be able to take a similar number of shots on the PP so his goals numbers would simply reflect his shot accuracy. Let's say he has a bad year with accuracy and is half as accurate as he was this year. That's still 8-10 goals, which is up there with Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo in a down accuracy year. That's still a huge weapon that PK units have to respect and defend. And remember, his #1 strength is always going to be his rock solid defense.

I get why people look at a totally different player in a totally different situation (Ville Leino) and want to compare the two. Obviously it's an absurd notion that what one randomly specific player does has any relationship to what another random player does. Instead it's about personal fears of worst-case stuff. Nobody wants to feel like they made a foolish decision. But that's more a personal issue the individual Blues fan needs to work through than it is something remotely related to a sober assessment of what kind of player Jason Garrison is.

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