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06-10-2012, 11:12 AM
  #176
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Good post P_B.

I would rather that Jackman be allowed to walk, but who else are the Blues gonna get? They already need a partner for Pietrangelo and if Jackman is not re-signed, then that's another hole to fill.

He will probably be offered a two-year contract. Doubt he'd even consider a one-year contract with the Blues.

My opinion since the end of the playoffs is to let Jackman walk due to his sub-par play in the postseason. And the interesting bit about sample size is that the postseason will always be a much smaller sample size than the regular season by at least 74%. It takes only 16 wins for the Cup, but it usually takes teams 21-25 games to win it, which comes out to about 25-30% of the regular season.

So, in that case, the always-smaller postseason sample size would need to be weighted properly in order to be able to compare postseason performance to regular season performance.

I know we have several members here who are nifty wit da lies....ahem....STATS.....


Last edited by ChicagoBlues: 06-10-2012 at 11:40 AM. Reason: edit %
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06-10-2012, 11:36 AM
  #177
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I'd be fine with re-signing Jackman but only as Shatty's partner. They'd still need to sign or trade for Petro's partner IMO. Something like:

Garrison-Petro
Jackman-Shatty
Russell-Polak
Cole

I also still like Allen too as an option. What it'll come down to is how much guys like Garrison, Allen & Jacks will cost on the free market. Suter too as I'm sure the Blues will at least kick the tires with him but I'm not considering Suter being a realistic option at this point.

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06-10-2012, 12:57 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
The interesting thing about Jackman in this year's playoffs, is that his plus/minus was proportional to his ice time: the less ice time he got, the worse his plus/minus was.

In the San Jose series, Jackman averaged over 21 minutes of ice time per game (skewed somewhat by 31-plus minutes in Game One), and was a minus-2.

In the LA series, Jackman averaged just over 15 minutes of ice time per game -- including about 13 minutes in Game Two and about 12 minutes in Game Three -- and was a minus-6. He was minus-3 in each of the two games where he played the fewest minutes.

http://www.forecaster.ca/thestar.com...r-gbg.cgi?1923

Now, this might not mean anything... but I think it's illustrative of Jackman's value to the team. When he plays more, even at the "advanced" age of 31, the team is better defensively. Obviously in this case, this is anecdotal evidence based on a pretty small sample size, but I would not be surprised to find this borne out over a larger sample size analysis.

In the 2011-12 regular season, for example, Jackman averaged 20:40 of ice time per game and was a plus-20.

And it's not like Barret Jackman was the only member of the St. Louis Blues to exhibit substandard play in the LA series... if you want to make him the scapegoat, that's your right, but I doubt that management sees it that way.

In my opinion, Jackman is the Barclay Plager of the 21st century for the Blues, and he absolutely should retire a Blue while having worn no other uniform in the HoweverNHL.
Noted, good points. However, the Hockey Gods will disagree from the San Jose series and we did find out that Elliott is a Backup Goalie after all. Jackman is no scapegoat IMO like Brewer was in many fans eyes. I just feel like its time to move on to someone better via FA or trade to get to the next level? Is there someone on Blues management who think that Jackman is a top 4 Defenseman? We will know a month or so from now correct?


On the retirement comment not many have had that honor, including HOF the only reared True Blue Bernie Federko, albeit a Center. So I say
no for Jackman " retiring " a St. Louis Blue. As great as Bob and the late Barclay Plager were for our Blues they never won the Stanley Cup either for the Franchise.

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06-10-2012, 01:01 PM
  #179
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My take on the D:
(FA or Trade) Petro
Russell Polak
Cole/Jax Shatty

Cole and Jax split time that way Cole gains experience and Jackman gets to rest. I think that is a win win.

I dont see how Jackman could accept anything less than 2.5mil but i honestly believe it will be closer to 3. There is no chance he take a 2 way deal im not even sure how you could think that a player coming off a carreer year would play in the AHL.

Russell and Polak whether anyone wants to admit it can play as a 2nd pairing.

I think its possible to get one of Allen, Garrisson or Suter in FA. If not we trade for someone maybe with the rags or coyotes who are loaded on the left side.

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06-10-2012, 01:32 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignore42me View Post
My take on the D:
(FA or Trade) Petro
Russell Polak
Cole/Jax Shatty

Cole and Jax split time that way Cole gains experience and Jackman gets to rest. I think that is a win win.

I dont see how Jackman could accept anything less than 2.5mil but i honestly believe it will be closer to 3. There is no chance he take a 2 way deal im not even sure how you could think that a player coming off a carreer year would play in the AHL.

Russell and Polak whether anyone wants to admit it can play as a 2nd pairing.

I think its possible to get one of Allen, Garrisson or Suter in FA. If not we trade for someone maybe with the rags or coyotes who are loaded on the left side.
Russell/Polak aren't going to be ahead of Shattenkirk's pairing. There's a difference between acknowledging that Russell and Polak make a solid, effective pair and thinking that Polak is ahead of Shattenkirk (he isn't) and that Russell will be ahead of whichever top four defender is brought in ahead of him. Take a look at the player usage charts (in the your Blues 12-13 thread) and you'll notice that Jackman/Shattenkirk have both better success and play against tougher competition. There's no doubt that in the playoffs, Jackman/Shattenkirk just had a rough, rough time but at this point I think one has to credit at least Shattenkirk's part of that equation with being a 2d year player in his very first playoffs. There is a learning curve and he wasn't ready to handle the forecheck of the team most likely to win the Cup. We should be fairly forgiving of that IMO. I'm glad he had at least a taste of a couple successful games (Game 4 against the Kings he was strong both sides of the puck) so he has something to build on. Guess what I'm saying is Russell/Polak could serve as some team's 2d pairing but not on the Blues at this point in their development. It's one of the best 3d pairings in the league IMO.

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06-10-2012, 01:34 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignore42me View Post
My take on the D:
(FA or Trade) Petro
Russell Polak
Cole/Jax Shatty

Cole and Jax split time that way Cole gains experience and Jackman gets to rest. I think that is a win win.

I dont see how Jackman could accept anything less than 2.5mil but i honestly believe it will be closer to 3. There is no chance he take a 2 way deal im not even sure how you could think that a player coming off a carreer year would play in the AHL.

Russell and Polak whether anyone wants to admit it can play as a 2nd pairing.

I think its possible to get one of Allen, Garrisson or Suter in FA. If not we trade for someone maybe with the rags or coyotes who are loaded on the left side.
I think it is quite possible that Jackman will be offered a 3-4 yr deal at $4M per...by another team.

He'd be foolish to pass it up. If Armstrong offers a contract, for how much will it be?

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06-10-2012, 02:05 PM
  #182
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I think Jax and Polak again would make for a good physical shutdown line obviously there wouldn't be much production offense-wise. Jax/ Shatty will probably be used again though. I think that the Blues getting rid of Nikitin for Russell was a bad move. If anything I see Russell splitting time with Cole. No doubt about it once Cole gets over the nerves and finds his niche he will turn out to be a solid defenseman.

Getting someone on the first line that plays the same kind of game as Petro is hard. He plays a two-way style of defense and doesn't have any holes in his game with the exception of physical play and if he is getting bullied the Blues need someone in the back who isn't afraid to step up and protect our star defenseman. Allen definitely has the toughness and size that the Blues need but I don't know if he would pair well with Petro especially for 2.9M. Suter would be a dream partner for Petro but I'm afraid he's just that.

Allen though would be a good replacement if Jax walks. The team I see gunning for him would be Vancouver but his dedication to St. Louis will probably see him here again next season.


Last edited by Harley83: 06-10-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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06-10-2012, 02:10 PM
  #183
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Gotta disagree with you on Russell. Imo (not pizza), Russell was the best Blues defenseman during the postseason. I loved his focus. He had a very determined look on his face and played with urgency. His eyes were tethered to the puck he was that focused.

Gotta agree with others here who want to pair Jackman with Shattenkirk even though they both stunk as a pair in the playoffs. It almost has to be that way.

Nikitin is a pylon.

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06-10-2012, 02:19 PM
  #184
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I loathe Russell in the top-6. He's small and weak but shifty...but provides very little offense over 82 games.

X-Petro
Cole-Shattenkirk
Jax-Polak
ex: Russell, Fairchild

The "X" I want is either Beaulieu or Marc Staal...either for whom I'd trade Perron. (Beaulieu+ for Perron...Perron+ for Staal).

I'd also consider trading Shattenkirk for Del Zotto...similar players, just switch a right-handed PMD for a left-hander. I'd expect NYR to add if there was a deal around those playes.

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06-10-2012, 02:26 PM
  #185
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Russell has a lot in common with Huskins as far as style of play and injuries. They both have the ability to move the puck and they both play a safe kind of game but they both have had some streaks of injuries which prevent establishing themselves as reliable which STL needs. Russell has his young age in his favor although he is rather small to protect against the NHL's larger forwards.

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06-10-2012, 02:29 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Stealth JD View Post
I loathe Russell in the top-6. He's small and weak but shifty...but provides very little offense over 82 games.

X-Petro
Cole-Shattenkirk
Jax-Polak
ex: Russell, Fairchild

The "X" I want is either Beaulieu or Marc Staal...either for whom I'd trade Perron. (Beaulieu+ for Perron...Perron+ for Staal).

I'd also consider trading Shattenkirk for Del Zotto...similar players, just switch a right-handed PMD for a left-hander. I'd expect NYR to add if there was a deal around those playes.
I like players who perform very well under pressure and Russell was the best non-Petro in the playoffs for the Blues this year. Additionally, I've seen Russell actually make a few huge hits where you go, whoa, that was Russell? He's smaller and won't win every physical battle but wins more than he should for his size.

I think he's a fantastic third pair lefty. Love him there. Regardless of whether anyone personally doesn't like Russell, I think it's safe to say Hitchcock has no intention of making Russell the 7th dman.

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06-10-2012, 02:31 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Harley83 View Post
Russell has a lot in common with Huskins as far as style of play and injuries. They both have the ability to move the puck and they both play a safe kind of game but they both have had some streaks of injuries which prevent establishing themselves as reliable which STL needs. Russell has his young age in his favor although he is rather small to protect against the NHL's larger forwards.
Russell is quick and a lousy offensive d-man, who can play adequate defense based on his speed and awareness.

Huskins is a slow and lousy defensive d-man, who can play adequate offense based on his shot-accuracy.

I'd say they're pretty much polar-opposites style-wise...the thing in common being they're both bottom pairing guys who can both provide a little scoring but are less-than-idea defenders.

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06-10-2012, 02:35 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Harley83 View Post
Russell has a lot in common with Huskins as far as style of play and injuries. They both have the ability to move the puck and they both play a safe kind of game but they both have had some streaks of injuries which prevent establishing themselves as reliable which STL needs. Russell has his young age in his favor although he is rather small to protect against the NHL's larger forwards.
???? Russell and Huskins could probably not be more opposite. Huskins is 6'4". Russell is 5'10". Huskins is a stay at home d-man whose game is a simple game of short, direct passes. Russell is a fluid-skating PMD.

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06-10-2012, 02:37 PM
  #189
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Russell is quick and a lousy offensive d-man, who can play adequate defense based on his speed and awareness.

Huskins is a slow and lousy defensive d-man, who can play adequate offense based on his shot-accuracy.

I'd say they're pretty much polar-opposites style-wise...the thing in common being they're both bottom pairing guys who can both provide a little scoring but are less-than-idea defenders.
I just heard a fat lady singing Stealth JD! I actually agree with you on something.

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06-10-2012, 02:38 PM
  #190
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Russell is a mid-20s point defenseman over a full season. For a third pairing PMD this is not lousy.

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06-10-2012, 02:41 PM
  #191
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Russell was great at moving the puck up the ice, something that we needed badly. He is a great 3rd pairing dman, and duo of him and Polak thrive together.

Cole will be a full time player, so I hope some of you get use to that. If he isn't going to be a full time player with us by now, then he should be traded. It is his time to make an impact. That simple.

Some people are making this more complicated than it really is. If can't find an upgrade over Jackman, then we simply resign Jackman. The upgrades will be gone quick, either at the draft through trades or at the start of free agency, which means we don't have to keep Jackman waiting.

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06-10-2012, 02:42 PM
  #192
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Russell is a mid-20s point defenseman over a full season. For a third pairing PMD this is not lousy.
20-points for a 3rd pairing guy is decent. 20-points for an offense defenseman in general is lousy. Because he's a below-average scoring d-man (and defensive d-man) he's 3rd pairing. He's probably not "lousy"...but he's the weak link on the team that already lacks size and skill on the back-end. Granted his playoffs were decent...but i've seen him exposed too many times over the course of a season to think he can be a key guy on a contender.

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06-10-2012, 02:47 PM
  #193
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The Russell-Polak pairing does a very good job, and that is all that matters, how they play together.

Remember how the Jackman-Polak pairing played 2 seasons ago? They were terrible because they could never move the puck, but with more offensive partners, they thrive.

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06-10-2012, 02:52 PM
  #194
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The Russell-Polak pairing does a very good job, and that is all that matters, how they play together.

Remember how the Jackman-Polak pairing played 2 seasons ago? They were terrible because they could never move the puck, but with more offensive partners, they thrive.
Maybe it's just me...but I remember the Jackman-Polak pairing being one of the best shutdown units in the league that year. Granted they produced zero offense, but they were tremendous in their own end together.

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06-10-2012, 02:53 PM
  #195
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20-points for a 3rd pairing guy is decent. 20-points for an offense defenseman in general is lousy. Because he's a below-average scoring d-man (and defensive d-man) he's 3rd pairing. He's probably not "lousy"...but he's the weak link on the team that already lacks size and skill on the back-end. Granted his playoffs were decent...but i've seen him exposed too many times over the course of a season to think he can be a key guy on a contender.
I wouldn't think he could be the key guy either, but that's kind of why I like him where he is right now. For me it's somewhat less important whether he gets credited with assists than whether he can skate the puck out of trouble from pressure and get the play moving forward. Given that the Blues score much more frequently off a cycle where forwards wind up touching the puck among themselves several times before it goes in than they do off transition where defensemen get more assists, the key for me is whether he's a plus player with transition.

I'd like to see him convert a few more of his scoring chances on the occasions where he pinches. But for a guy not seeing PP time and only getting 17 minutes a night I'm pretty happy with what I've seen out of Russell thus far.

As for weak link, there's no way Russell is or was the weak link. I don't see this at all. If anything he's someone who could step up in the clutch and perform well against the most ferocious forecheck the playoffs saw this year. He played 20 minutes in most of the LA games and thrived. That strongly argues against a critique that he's the weak link.

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06-10-2012, 02:53 PM
  #196
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Maybe it's just me...but I remember the Jackman-Polak pairing being one of the best shutdown units in the league that year. Granted they produced zero offense, but they were tremendous in their own end together.
Yeah, but they could never get out of their own end, that was the problem.

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06-10-2012, 02:56 PM
  #197
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Maybe it's just me...but I remember the Jackman-Polak pairing being one of the best shutdown units in the league that year. Granted they produced zero offense, but they were tremendous in their own end together.
It really doesn't work as more than a PK pairing under Hitchcock. Neither Jackman nor Polak can be counted on for that transition offense and you can't have a pairing where nearly a third of the game you don't have any defensive transition.

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06-10-2012, 03:03 PM
  #198
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As expected, Brad Stuart is heading to San Jose. Detroit just traded his rights to the Sharks for a conditional 2014 pick.

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06-10-2012, 03:08 PM
  #199
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???? Russell and Huskins could probably not be more opposite. Huskins is 6'4". Russell is 5'10". Huskins is a stay at home d-man whose game is a simple game of short, direct passes. Russell is a fluid-skating PMD.
I stated the size difference... Russell has his young age in his favor although he is rather small to protect against the NHL's larger forwards.

I didn't say their size was similar I said their game and injuries were. They both play a safe style of game and have had an above average amount of injuries.

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06-10-2012, 03:10 PM
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I stated the size difference... Russell has his young age in his favor although he is rather small to protect against the NHL's larger forwards.

I didn't say their size was similar I said their game and injuries were. They both play a safe style of game and have had an above average amount of injuries.
No, they don't play anything remotely close to the same style of game. I am one of at least three people to point out to you that they are diametrically opposite in style of play.

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