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It is Boyling this time of year. (Offseason Speculation Thread Part IV)

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06-07-2012, 01:46 AM
  #276
WantonAbandon
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yeah, actually, he does.
Yeah that is absolutely absurd

Edit: You mean he on the Canadian Olympic team maybe...

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06-07-2012, 01:50 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post


Of course they were interested in trading JVR for Couture. Couture is the much better player and also much cheaper.
And Pavelski is better then Couture...

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06-07-2012, 01:51 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Well let me put it to you this way. Pavs was better than Versteeg (who Id say was the third best forward for the panthers), Sharp, Landeskog, Backes, and Burgeron this year. Look at the overall stats.... LOOK AT THEM

I'd say overall Landeskog was the closest out of the players you mentioned. He will likely develop into an elite. Backes was also pretty close.
You thinking that Pavelski was better than Backes this year tells me all I need to know.

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And Pavelski is better then Couture...
Because GMs only think about the following season and completely ignore the future.

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06-07-2012, 01:53 AM
  #279
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You thinking that Pavelski was better than Backes this year tells me all I need to know.



Because GMs only think about the following season and completely ignore the future.
You being unable to logically explain your position is all I need to know. The fact is Pavs outperformed Backes

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06-07-2012, 01:59 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
You being unable to logically explain your position is all I need to know.
Less zone starts and not playing with Thornton is a start. You really have watch both players to understand. I'm sure a poster who watches the Blues on a more consistent basis (like Jux) could expand on their differences.

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06-07-2012, 02:01 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Yeah that is absolutely absurd

Edit: You mean he on the Canadian Olympic team maybe...
Patrick Marleau has three career hat tricks in the Playoffs. Game 4 against Nashville in '06, game 4 against St. Louis in '04, and game 6 against Colorado in '04.

Patrick Marleau is an elite player, no matter what Sharks fans like to ***** about. Call me when Pavelski is putting up 86 point seasons, or scoring 44 goals in one season despite the fact that he also has another goalscorer on his other wing. Marleau is a 1st line player.

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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
And Pavelski is better then Couture...
Right, I never said that the Flyers wouldn't trade JVR for Pavelski. Just that they wouldn't trade Couturier.

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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Less zone starts and not playing with Thornton is a start. You really have watch both players to understand. I'm sure a poster who watches the Blues on a more consistent basis (like Jux) could expand on their differences.
Backes is a total stud in the defensive zone. Not only does he have the same elite defensive positioning as Pavelski does, but the ability to muscle opponents off the puck. And he had the center's responsibility. Pavelski was playing as a winger, who by definition has less defensive responsibility than the centerman.

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06-07-2012, 02:07 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Less zone starts and not playing with Thornton is a start. You really have watch both players to understand. I'm sure a poster who watches the Blues on a more consistent basis (like Jux) could expand on their differences.
As much as I appreciate it I don't need the explanation. The two percent difference is something I will give you that, however you would be better off mentioning short handed time. Playing with Thornton does make a big difference however how much better do you think Thornton performed over Pavelski? Pavelski had a monster of a season with and without Thornton.

Anyway the results sort of show that Backes and Pavs were pretty close overall, so I don't want to split hairs too much. If your opinion is that Backes was better then Pavs Id say it is a perfectly reasonable opinion.

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06-07-2012, 02:10 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
If your opinion is that Backes was better then Pavs Id say it is a perfectly reasonable opinion.
Yet you said earlier, the only players that are above Pavelski are elite, superstar, franchise players. Backes does not fit that category.

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06-07-2012, 02:13 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
As much as I appreciate it I don't need the explanation. The two percent difference is something I will give you that, however you would be better off mentioning short handed time. Playing with Thornton does make a big difference however how much better do you think Thornton performed over Pavelski? Pavelski had a monster of a season with and without Thornton.

Anyway the results sort of show that Backes and Pavs were pretty close overall, so I don't want to split hairs too much. If your opinion is that Backes was better then Pavs Id say it is a perfectly reasonable opinion.
Pavelski was attached at the hip to Thornton.

JOE THORNTON JOE PAVELSKI PATRICK MARLEAU 13.59%
LOGAN COUTURE JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 5.07%
ANDREW DESJARDINS JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 2.01%
JOE THORNTON JOE PAVELSKI TORREY MITCHELL 1.48%
BENN FERRIERO JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 1.12%
TOMMY WINGELS JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 0.92%
BRAD WINCHESTER JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 0.82%

These are every single line combination recorded involving Pavelski. See a trend? Marleau bounced around, Couture bounced, around, but the Pavs-JT combo was never broken up, even when it should have been.

And if you look at shots/60 against, you'll find that Pavelski was a fairly poor PKer this season.

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06-07-2012, 02:19 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Patrick Marleau has three career hat tricks in the Playoffs. Game 4 against Nashville in '06, game 4 against St. Louis in '04, and game 6 against Colorado in '04.

Patrick Marleau is an elite player, no matter what Sharks fans like to ***** about. Call me when Pavelski is putting up 86 point seasons, or scoring 44 goals in one season despite the fact that he also has another goalscorer on his other wing. Marleau is a 1st line player.


Either I miss understood you which is highly possible or you changed your mind about Marleau. I believe you called him elite second line talent like Pavelski.....

Yes Marleau had a crazy year. And to top it he went up against an impressive quality of comp and had tons of short handed time... However it still wasn't as big of a load as Pavelski carried this season. But yes Marleau did score 22 more points.

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06-07-2012, 02:23 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Pavelski was attached at the hip to Thornton.

JOE THORNTON JOE PAVELSKI PATRICK MARLEAU 13.59%
LOGAN COUTURE JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 5.07%
ANDREW DESJARDINS JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 2.01%
JOE THORNTON JOE PAVELSKI TORREY MITCHELL 1.48%
BENN FERRIERO JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 1.12%
TOMMY WINGELS JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 0.92%
BRAD WINCHESTER JOE PAVELSKI JOE THORNTON 0.82%

These are every single line combination recorded involving Pavelski. See a trend? Marleau bounced around, Couture bounced, around, but the Pavs-JT combo was never broken up, even when it should have been.

And if you look at shots/60 against, you'll find that Pavelski was a fairly poor PKer this season.
So what about him being attached to Thornton he out performed Thornton in a few areas.
Also shots against would be a poor knock against Pavs considering how the Sharks played PK. Also I would argue that Pavs may have been over used on the PK.

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06-07-2012, 02:25 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Yet you said earlier, the only players that are above Pavelski are elite, superstar, franchise players. Backes does not fit that category.
No he doesn't, but I'd argue that Pavs out performed him overall. However it would be pretty close. Like Pavs I'd say players who are without question above Backes are Elite players

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06-07-2012, 02:30 AM
  #288
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Either I miss understood you which is highly possible or you changed your mind about Marleau. I believe you called him elite second line talent like Pavelski.....

Yes Marleau had a crazy year. And to top it he went up against an impressive quality of comp and had tons of short handed time... However it still wasn't as big of a load as Pavelski carried this season. But yes Marleau did score 22 more points.
Who, Marleau? No way. Marleau is a first line player, and that's the end of that. He's far more offensively talented, and not far behind Pavelski defensively.

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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
So what about him being attached to Thornton he out performed Thornton in a few areas.
Also shots against would be a poor knock against Pavs considering how the Sharks played PK. Also I would argue that Pavs may have been over used on the PK.
Pavelski's shots against were much worse than Couture, Marleau, Thornton, and Desjardins. The only regular PKers he outperformed were Handzus and Mitchell.

And where did he outperform Thornton?

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06-07-2012, 02:31 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Like Pavs I'd say players who are without question above Backes are Elite players
And like what DH said, elite, franchise, and superstar are 3 different categories. You responded by saying you had to be all 3.

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06-07-2012, 08:32 AM
  #290
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Where to stack Pavelski overall is all relative. I happen to believe he is a legitimate 1st line player. He's not a #1C but he is a first line player. He is not elite offensively but he is elite defensively while being average offensively in comparison to other first liners. He was 48th offensively last year in points and 70th in points per game among forwards.

I wouldn't pigeonhole Pavelski into 2nd line status. Last season more than proved he is able to compete with the big boys night in and night out. He may not be the elite two-way player because his offense is lagging behind but that can improve with a 2nd year in the situation. But he is elite defensively, potted 30 goals, and won a huge amount of his draws while playing against the best offense every team can put out there. That's at least got to get him over the elite 2nd line center spot and into the legitimate 1st line player spot.

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06-07-2012, 09:18 AM
  #291
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Where to stack Pavelski overall is all relative. I happen to believe he is a legitimate 1st line player. He's not a #1C but he is a first line player. He is not elite offensively but he is elite defensively while being average offensively in comparison to other first liners. He was 48th offensively last year in points and 70th in points per game among forwards.

I wouldn't pigeonhole Pavelski into 2nd line status. Last season more than proved he is able to compete with the big boys night in and night out. He may not be the elite two-way player because his offense is lagging behind but that can improve with a 2nd year in the situation. But he is elite defensively, potted 30 goals, and won a huge amount of his draws while playing against the best offense every team can put out there. That's at least got to get him over the elite 2nd line center spot and into the legitimate 1st line player spot.
I agree. He's a solid 1st liner, and a lot better than a lot of teams can ice on their first line.

His real issue with being on the first line is he is not a natural winger. He's versatile enough to play the role well, but he's best utilized at center, but does not have quite the offensive production of an elite #1c (which we happen to have). However, quite a few teams would put Pavelski as their #1c if they had him, we just happen to have Thornton. Pavelski is also slow of foot, which is a bit more of an issue at wing than center, and since our other centers are also relatively slow skaters it means Pavelski will end up on a line with two slow skaters minimum, which is a problem.

I think Pavelski will peak around 30g and 70p offensively (things he has basically already done), and that is absolutely 1st line caliber.

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06-07-2012, 09:57 AM
  #292
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I agree. He's a solid 1st liner, and a lot better than a lot of teams can ice on their first line.

His real issue with being on the first line is he is not a natural winger. He's versatile enough to play the role well, but he's best utilized at center, but does not have quite the offensive production of an elite #1c (which we happen to have). However, quite a few teams would put Pavelski as their #1c if they had him, we just happen to have Thornton. Pavelski is also slow of foot, which is a bit more of an issue at wing than center, and since our other centers are also relatively slow skaters it means Pavelski will end up on a line with two slow skaters minimum, which is a problem.

I think Pavelski will peak around 30g and 70p offensively (things he has basically already done), and that is absolutely 1st line caliber.
I really don't like Pavs on the 1st line. To me, he doesn't have the offensive skill to hang on the top line. I feel that he plays much better as the 2nd line center. We have too many Centers. We have guys that are playing positions they shouldn't. We should either trade one or put Pavs on the 3rd line. Pavs seems to beast more as the 2nd line center.

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06-07-2012, 10:25 AM
  #293
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I really don't like Pavs on the 1st line. To me, he doesn't have the offensive skill to hang on the top line. I feel that he plays much better as the 2nd line center. We have too many Centers. We have guys that are playing positions they shouldn't. We should either trade one or put Pavs on the 3rd line. Pavs seems to beast more as the 2nd line center.
I agree in the sense that we are better off with a superior 1st line center and a superior 2nd line center, but if push comes to shove Pavelski is capable of playing the role, that's all I was saying. He is a lot better #1c than many teams can ice. Toronto for instance would love to have Joe Pavelski.

That is why I've proposed a couple of times trading JT and putting Couture there, not Pavelski. Couture has the superior skill-set and talent and while he might not be a Crosby/Malkin/Thornton I think he can absolutely be a Krejci/Toews/Kopitar level #1c, and obviously that is all you need if they are surrounded by the right players.

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06-07-2012, 10:45 AM
  #294
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I agree in the sense that we are better off with a superior 1st line center and a superior 2nd line center, but if push comes to shove Pavelski is capable of playing the role, that's all I was saying. He is a lot better #1c than many teams can ice. Toronto for instance would love to have Joe Pavelski.

That is why I've proposed a couple of times trading JT and putting Couture there, not Pavelski. Couture has the superior skill-set and talent and while he might not be a Crosby/Malkin/Thornton I think he can absolutely be a Krejci/Toews/Kopitar level #1c, and obviously that is all you need if they are surrounded by the right players.
I agree about Couture fitting in as the first line center given the right mix of players surrounding him. But I also do think that a lot of us talk about trading JT too easily. He is the best player on the Sharks. Any trade involving JT would require some kind of serious over-payment, especially if we are to contend right away. Like you said, Couture is no Crosby/Malkin/Thornton.

I think a lot of the Shark Fans over-estimate Couture as well. I mean he is definitely a very good player who is under-valued by other fan bases, but I do not know if he will ever be a PPG player. I sure hope he proves me wrong with that but only time will tell.

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06-07-2012, 10:49 AM
  #295
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I agree about Couture fitting in as the first line center given the right mix of players surrounding him. But I also do think that a lot of us talk about trading JT too easily. He is the best player on the Sharks. Any trade involving JT would require some kind of serious over-payment, especially if we are to contend right away. Like you said, Couture is no Crosby/Malkin/Thornton.

I think a lot of the Shark Fans over-estimate Couture as well. I mean he is definitely a very good player who is under-valued by other fan bases, but I do not know if he will ever be a PPG player. I sure hope he proves me wrong with that but only time will tell.
He really doesn't need to be a PPG player to be a good #1c anyway, but I expect him to get close, around Marleau's production I would guess.

I only trade JT as part of a mini-rebuild scenario.

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06-07-2012, 11:06 AM
  #296
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can someone fill me in about david jones.... everyone seems to like him but dont we already have a version of him (clowe)

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06-07-2012, 11:12 AM
  #297
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can someone fill me in about david jones.... everyone seems to like him but dont we already have a version of him (clowe)
He's nothing special, just a solid role player. Not really my first choice, and it sounds like Colorado is going to re-sign him anyway.

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06-07-2012, 11:15 AM
  #298
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He's nothing special, just a solid role player. Not really my first choice, and it sounds like Colorado is going to re-sign him anyway.
cool, thanks

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06-07-2012, 11:18 AM
  #299
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Would like to chime in and say that Couturier is a legit player and untouchable. He is 19! He played insanely well in the playoffs and did an outstanding job against Malkin.

Sharks fans definitely over hype Couture. He is already an outstanding player and has a bright future but comparing him to Toews and Kopitar is insane. These are top 10 players in the NHL right now that are only a year older than Couture. I think expecting Couture to become that is crazy and unfair to Couture.

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06-07-2012, 11:18 AM
  #300
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He's nothing special, just a solid role player. Not really my first choice, and it sounds like Colorado is going to re-sign him anyway.
Curious. Who would be your first choice?

Also, I think you and I are in the same boat about Nash. i.e we expect DW to sign him no matter what.

That being said, do you expect this to be after July 1 or a draft-day event?

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