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It is Boyling this time of year. (Offseason Speculation Thread Part IV)

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06-15-2012, 03:27 PM
  #901
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Are you reality? Who is making the argument that Pavelski is better than Marleau? There is a level of expectation from Marleau, completely 100% justifiably so due to his tenure and pay check, that he perform to his ability. I'm not talking about stat cherry picking either.
Uh, everyone here thinks that Pavelski is better than Marleau. As LZ or lsx.

You're allowed to either have expectations, or think he's crap. Not both.

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06-15-2012, 03:29 PM
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Who said Marleau was "irreplaceable"? I certainly didn't. I think it's funny that you're not allowed to have unconditional support for a guy who has done so much as a Shark, but it's completely okay to have irrational hate towards a guy you don't know.

And if we get Nash, go you really see Pavelski cracking 30 goals again? Because I certainly don't.
But I don't hate Marleau. I just don't give him as much credit as many here do. To not recognize his talents would be stupid. I also think he's streaky as hell and disappears at the most inopportune times for this team over the years.

I think it's time to try a team without him if the right deal is there. That is all.

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06-15-2012, 03:29 PM
  #903
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Uh, everyone here thinks that Pavelski is better than Marleau. As LZ or lsx.

You're allowed to either have expectations, or think he's crap. Not both.
My expectations for him have been crappy lately.

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06-15-2012, 03:32 PM
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Isn't some heat from the media what some posters wanted? Kind of refreshing I think.
Agree, the local media fuel the country club atmosphere around the Sharks. The niners, giants and even warriors get more scrutiny.

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06-15-2012, 03:35 PM
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But I don't hate Marleau. I just don't give him as much credit as many here do. To not recognize his talents would be stupid. I also think he's streaky as hell and disappears at the most inopportune times for this team over the years.

I think it's time to try a team without him if the right deal is there. That is all.
You may not "hate" Marleau, but you use every excuse to rip on him. Everyone does. You can't deny that.

IF the right deal is there, of course you pull the trigger. But everyone's definition of "the right deal" is different. For many here, trading him for a 2nd round pick is a good idea.

Doug Wilson isn't going to trade him for another superstar. He refused to trade Marleau for Thornton (thank goodness), he refused to trade Marleau for Heatley (thank goodness). He's not going to trade Marleau for scraps like people want.

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06-15-2012, 03:35 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
But I don't hate Marleau. I just don't give him as much credit as many here do. To not recognize his talents would be stupid. I also think he's streaky as hell and disappears at the most inopportune times for this team over the years.

I think it's time to try a team without him if the right deal is there. That is all.
I'm with you. If the right deal is there I'm sure DW contemplates it.

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06-15-2012, 03:38 PM
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Agree, the local media fuel the country club atmosphere around the Sharks. The niners, giants and even warriors get more scrutiny.
I'm fine with scrutiny, but since all Sharks scrutiny is on Marleau, it's hardly "refreshing". Criticize Thornton, or Pavelski, or Couture, or Boyle, and then I'll call it refreshing. I find it funny that Pavelski got more pardon for his pointless series against St. Louis for injuries than Marleau did for his Anaheim series in which he scored both GWGs and was also injured.

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06-15-2012, 03:41 PM
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You may not "hate" Marleau, but you use every excuse to rip on him. Everyone does. You can't deny that.
I don't mind putting a burr under the saddle of a few people around here every once in a while if that's what your talking about

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06-15-2012, 03:44 PM
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I don't mind putting a burr under the saddle of a few people around here every once in a while if that's what your talking about
Obviously.

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06-15-2012, 03:44 PM
  #910
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I'm fine with scrutiny, but since all Sharks scrutiny is on Marleau, it's hardly "refreshing". Criticize Thornton, or Pavelski, or Couture, or Boyle, and then I'll call it refreshing. I find it funny that Pavelski got more pardon for his pointless series against St. Louis for injuries than Marleau did for his Anaheim series in which he scored both GWGs and was also injured.
Thats because everyone hates Marleau, obviously.

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06-15-2012, 03:45 PM
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I personally feel like "the right deal" is too passive, as if the Sharks are entertaining interest from other teams that might approach them.

They should be looking to move Marleau. It's time to move on. Wanting a guy to stay a Shark for his entire career is a nostalgic play. The Great One and the Great Bambino left town, Marleau can too.

I kind of actually am starting to hate Marleau, and I ain't affurd to admit it. I didn't always, and he was actually one of my favorite players when he came up and was merely a complimentary piece to the puzzle. He will only ever shine as a complimentary piece but he is making the money of an elite front-line player who is expected to make things happen himself. Again, beating a horse dead here, he is amazingly talented. Everyone knows this, and their mommas too. I can't think of another guy on the team I would want streaking away on a breakaway opportunity (shootouts are another story). He can snipe the puck with the best of em when the puck squirts lose in the slot.

It's just time to move on. There is one constant with the team's failure, and it is him. It might not be entirely his fault (I think a lot of it is based on my own opinion) but sometimes a coach will be fired to shake things up. We need a shake-up. Sure there will be a lot of fans that are sad/mad/up-in-arms.. but they will get over it. They will move on. They will grow. And their house will no longer be a death trap for firefighters.

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06-15-2012, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'm fine with scrutiny, but since all Sharks scrutiny is on Marleau, it's hardly "refreshing". Criticize Thornton, or Pavelski, or Couture, or Boyle, and then I'll call it refreshing. I find it funny that Pavelski got more pardon for his pointless series against St. Louis for injuries than Marleau did for his Anaheim series in which he scored both GWGs and was also injured.
A few more years of pointless playoff series and Pavelski would get his criticism when due.

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06-15-2012, 03:49 PM
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Thats because everyone hates Marleau, obviously.
That's not a real answer.

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06-15-2012, 03:52 PM
  #914
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That's not a real answer.
Its the only answer.

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06-15-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
I personally feel like "the right deal" is too passive, as if the Sharks are entertaining interest from other teams that might approach them.

They should be looking to move Marleau. It's time to move on. Wanting a guy to stay a Shark for his entire career is a nostalgic play. The Great One and the Great Bambino left town, Marleau can too.

I kind of actually am starting to hate Marleau, and I ain't affurd to admit it. I didn't always, and he was actually one of my favorite players when he came up and was merely a complimentary piece to the puzzle. He will only ever shine as a complimentary piece but he is making the money of an elite front-line player who is expected to make things happen himself. Again, beating a horse dead here, he is amazingly talented. Everyone knows this, and their mommas too. I can't think of another guy on the team I would want streaking away on a breakaway opportunity (shootouts are another story). He can snipe the puck with the best of em when the puck squirts lose in the slot.

It's just time to move on. [B]There is one constant with the team's failure, and it is him.
It might not be entirely his fault (I think a lot of it is based on my own opinion) but sometimes a coach will be fired to shake things up. We need a shake-up. Sure there will be a lot of fans that are sad/mad/up-in-arms.. but they will get over it. They will move on. They will grow. And their house will no longer be a death trap for firefighters.[/QUOTE]

Thornton has been here for as long as we've been contenders, and he gets off scotch-free. People sure have short memories.

You know what, I want Marleau traded. So when the Sharks still can't win a Cup, everyone here will look stupid. But I'm sure they'll find a different reason for why the Sharks are failing. Can't be that Marleau is an integral part of this team or anything like that.

Anyway, there's obviously nothing I can point out that will make rational the irrational.

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Its the only answer.
I rest my case.

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06-15-2012, 03:55 PM
  #916
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Thornton has been here for as long as we've been contenders, and he gets off scotch-free. People sure have short memories.
We made it to the WCF's before Thornton got here and JT hasn't been here as long as we've been contenders. JT made us contenders.

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06-15-2012, 03:58 PM
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We made it to the WCF's before Thornton got here and JT hasn't been here as long as we've been contenders. JT made us contenders.
Right and the '04 WCF was Marleau's coming out party.

So JT makes us contenders and everyone's satisfied with that, but Marleau's supposed to put us over the top? Yeah, that makes sense. So we made the WCF before JT, and we couldn't get back for years with JT, but he's not the problem? Ask anybody any different year, and they'll make excuses, but the constant is blaming Marleau.

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06-15-2012, 04:07 PM
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Right and the '04 WCF was Marleau's coming out party.

So JT makes us contenders and everyone's satisfied with that, but Marleau's supposed to put us over the top? Yeah, that makes sense. So we made the WCF before JT, and we couldn't get back for years with JT, but he's not the problem? Ask anybody any different year, and they'll make excuses, but the constant is blaming Marleau.
What was our record prior to the JT trade that year?

8 Wins and 16 Loses, Losing 10 in a row right before the trade.

Put us over the top that year? He saved the season.

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06-15-2012, 04:07 PM
  #919
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Thornton has been here for as long as we've been contenders, and he gets off scotch-free. People sure have short memories.

You know what, I want Marleau traded. So when the Sharks still can't win a Cup, everyone here will look stupid. But I'm sure they'll find a different reason for why the Sharks are failing. Can't be that Marleau is an integral part of this team or anything like that.

Anyway, there's obviously nothing I can point out that will make rational the irrational.


I rest my case.
That's because Thornton has visibly been putting in the effort and doing everything he can to get the team over the hump. Of course he isn't shooting the puck, which makes me and thousands of other fans insane in the membrane, but this isn't a blind allegiance here. I am not saying he is perfect and Marleau isn't.

Toot my own horn time: My opinions on players change over time, and I wish this were true for many others here. There is a difference between allegiance/sticking by your man/always believing no matter what and then realizing when it is time to move on.

I was high on Thornton, as was everyone else, when he came here in a trade. Then, a few years ago before the Anaheim series I would have had no problem moving Thornton out "if the right deal came along." Now my opinion is that it would have to be a blow your door down deal because Thornton in my eyes has been proving his mettle.

Marleau I went from liking to pretty much despising for several reasons: His on ice performance at critical times, his lack of use of his extra gear that we have all seen and know is there, his ho-hum attitude (prove the "naysayers" wrong!), his payday with NMC, and the blind allegiance of so many fans that will only admit his failures when it is in passing. During the Detroit series during the waning 2 minutes of game 7 last year I said "If Marleau continues to play like that for the rest of the Playoffs the Sharks will bring home the cup." He was a beast that was skating hard, throwing hits, and sacrificing his body to go all out to preserve the 1 goal lead. Problem is, he never sustains that.. and it isn't even half-and-half. It's a flash in the pan effort.

I went from loving Torrey Mitchell to not caring either way if he isn't brought back. I went from really liking Clowe and Murray to wanting them off the team for several seasons now.

I went from loving Pavelski to being a bit on the positive side of indifferent.

I went from not liking Michalek at all to really liking him in his final season here when he started to drive the net and play harder than a cream puff.

Opinions can change over time. Things that don't change are dead things.

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06-15-2012, 04:12 PM
  #920
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What was our record prior to the JT trade that year?

8 Wins and 16 Loses, Losing 10 in a row right before the trade.

Put us over the top that year? He saved the season.
Yeah, he saved that season. And then how many points did he put up in the playoffs again? I forget.

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That's because Thornton has visibly been putting in the effort and doing everything he can to get the team over the hump. Of course he isn't shooting the puck, which makes me and thousands of other fans insane in the membrane, but this isn't a blind allegiance here. I am not saying he is perfect and Marleau isn't.

Toot my own horn time: My opinions on players change over time, and I wish this were true for many others here. There is a difference between allegiance/sticking by your man/always believing no matter what and then realizing when it is time to move on.

I was high on Thornton, as was everyone else, when he came here in a trade. Then, a few years ago before the Anaheim series I would have had no problem moving Thornton out "if the right deal came along." Now my opinion is that it would have to be a blow your door down deal because Thornton in my eyes has been proving his mettle.

Marleau I went from liking to pretty much despising for several reasons: His on ice performance at critical times, his lack of use of his extra gear that we have all seen and know is there, his ho-hum attitude (prove the "naysayers" wrong!), his payday with NMC, and the blind allegiance of so many fans that will only admit his failures when it is in passing. During the Detroit series during the waning 2 minutes of game 7 last year I said "If Marleau continues to play like that for the rest of the Playoffs the Sharks will bring home the cup." He was a beast that was skating hard, throwing hits, and sacrificing his body to go all out to preserve the 1 goal lead. Problem is, he never sustains that.. and it isn't even half-and-half. It's a flash in the pan effort.

I went from loving Torrey Mitchell to not caring either way if he isn't brought back. I went from really liking Clowe and Murray to wanting them off the team for several seasons now.

I went from loving Pavelski to being a bit on the positive side of indifferent.

I went from not liking Michalek at all to really liking him in his final season here when he started to drive the net and play harder than a cream puff.

Opinions can change over time. Things that don't change are dead things.
I appreciate that you can change your opinions. I do.

But I'm sick of people hating on him because he doesn't "look" like he's giving effort. That's just how he is. If he got angry would people's opinions change? Maybe, but that wouldn't affect his on-ice play. Hell, he got into a fight with Kevin freaking Bieksa in the bloody playoffs. If that isn't sacrifice for your team I don't know what is.

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06-15-2012, 04:14 PM
  #921
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I'm fine with scrutiny, but since all Sharks scrutiny is on Marleau, it's hardly "refreshing". Criticize Thornton, or Pavelski, or Couture, or Boyle, and then I'll call it refreshing. I find it funny that Pavelski got more pardon for his pointless series against St. Louis for injuries than Marleau did for his Anaheim series in which he scored both GWGs and was also injured.
As I know you know, the level of scrutiny is proportional to one's salary and stature on the team. Patty, like Jumbo, will get the greater share of scrutiny and that comes with the territory of being one of the "star players"

On Thornton, he should - and does - get the same level of scrutiny but I'd say more so than Patty he makes a difference in the playoffs both in points and the difficult-to-measure/quantify "Compete" level. And to be fair, yes, Jumbo's weaknesses is slowing the play down and not shooting. If he overcomes either, doable, we'd be a more effective team offensively.

I don't want to deal Patty for scraps but hope DW is entertaining offers for him.

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06-15-2012, 04:14 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
That's because Thornton has visibly been putting in the effort and doing everything he can to get the team over the hump. Of course he isn't shooting the puck, which makes me and thousands of other fans insane in the membrane, but this isn't a blind allegiance here. I am not saying he is perfect and Marleau isn't.

Toot my own horn time: My opinions on players change over time, and I wish this were true for many others here. There is a difference between allegiance/sticking by your man/always believing no matter what and then realizing when it is time to move on.

I was high on Thornton, as was everyone else, when he came here in a trade. Then, a few years ago before the Anaheim series I would have had no problem moving Thornton out "if the right deal came along." Now my opinion is that it would have to be a blow your door down deal because Thornton in my eyes has been proving his mettle.

Marleau I went from liking to pretty much despising for several reasons: His on ice performance at critical times, his lack of use of his extra gear that we have all seen and know is there, his ho-hum attitude (prove the "naysayers" wrong!), his payday with NMC, and the blind allegiance of so many fans that will only admit his failures when it is in passing. During the Detroit series during the waning 2 minutes of game 7 last year I said "If Marleau continues to play like that for the rest of the Playoffs the Sharks will bring home the cup." He was a beast that was skating hard, throwing hits, and sacrificing his body to go all out to preserve the 1 goal lead. Problem is, he never sustains that.. and it isn't even half-and-half. It's a flash in the pan effort.

I went from loving Torrey Mitchell to not caring either way if he isn't brought back. I went from really liking Clowe and Murray to wanting them off the team for several seasons now.

I went from loving Pavelski to being a bit on the positive side of indifferent.

I went from not liking Michalek at all to really liking him in his final season here when he started to drive the net and play harder than a cream puff.

Opinions can change over time. Things that don't change are dead things.
They call your type flip floppers in politics. Because, well you know, it's looked down upon to change with the times. Never mind the logic involved, people prefer other people stick to their guns. I guess I should still be a Kings fans since I was before the Sharks came into town. What a bad person I am.

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06-15-2012, 04:19 PM
  #923
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But I'm sick of people hating on him because he doesn't "look" like he's giving effort. That's just how he is. If he got angry would people's opinions change? Maybe, but that wouldn't affect his on-ice play. Hell, he got into a fight with Kevin freaking Bieksa in the bloody playoffs. If that isn't sacrifice for your team I don't know what is.
I don't want Marleau to get angry. I want him to check hard, throw hits, fight like mad to win the puck race, protect the puck, use his speed. The check Mike Richards made against the Canucks in game 1 or 2 on Burrows, I think, was a tone setter. It showed the team that he was ready to fight. When's the last time you've seen Patty use his size? And when the leader of the team doesn't do it, how do you expect the rest of the team to follow?

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06-15-2012, 04:31 PM
  #924
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I don't want Marleau to get angry. I want him to check hard, throw hits, fight like mad to win the puck race, protect the puck, use his speed. The check Mike Richards made against the Canucks in game 1 or 2 on Burrows, I think, was a tone setter. It showed the team that he was ready to fight. When's the last time you've seen Patty use his size? And when the leader of the team doesn't do it, how do you expect the rest of the team to follow?
I agree. I find it a bit polarizing with Marleau's attitude because when I play sports or am involved in any sort of competition I am more vocal and passionate.. but this isn't my criticism here with Marleau, however odd I find it.

As you have pointed out, my criticism is that the effort is lacking, not that he isn't calling out his teammates and being vocal and looking pissed off (which again, totally weird).

He can be as quiet and unflappable as he wants if the all out effort/drive/determination/grit/sacrifice is there. It hasn't been, which makes his lackadaisical attitude stick out even more.

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06-15-2012, 04:42 PM
  #925
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I think the biggest problem with trading Marleau is that we for sure won't get equal value nor will it make us a better team...UNLESS its for a bunch of great prospects, but DW is not going to do that cause he's a win now "retool" gm. Not a rebuilder.

We need Marleau for speed, trading him for another speedy skater is a lateral move.

We could trade him to a contender but it's unlikely we'll be able to get two good players back since that team presumably wants the players they have to win.

We can't really trade him to a rebuilder because he's too old to Benifit a team like that.

The only type of team we could trade him too is a fringe playoff team but in all likelihood they'll be getting the best player and better end of the deal.

All and all the only arguable reason I buy into for trading Marleau is the "shake up" theory. But that's hard to rationalize and who knows if there is any merit to it.

Philly did that and maybe they put themselves in a good position for the future. Or maybe they shot themselves in the foot and watched carter/Richards rub it in their faces

Anyway, trade clowe and Murray for stafford and leopold, give it one more go around and if we fail next year. THEN trade everyone

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