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#2 Finn in the NHL

View Poll Results: #2 Finn in the NHL
Miikka Kiprusoff 31 26.72%
Jere Lehtinen 38 32.76%
Tuomo Ruutu 15 12.93%
Olli Jokinen 17 14.66%
Teemu Selanne 3 2.59%
Kimo Timonen 6 5.17%
Joni Pitkanen 1 0.86%
Sami Kapanen 1 0.86%
I'm a very biased phi,cal,dal,chi,flo,col or nas fan. 4 3.45%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-23-2004, 11:03 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Chaos, what is with your total obsession with Kiprusoff?

There are people who have picked Tuomo Ruutu and JOkinen over him, yet when people pick Kiprusoff you have a kinipsion fit.
Because I see people claiming Kiprusoff is an elite goalie, or dont really offer much explanation. And its because its all about "what have you done for me lately", and that just annoys me. It just so happens Kiprusoff is that guy. I was the same with Giguere after his playoff run. Nothing personal against Kiprusoff, but he just happens to be the "what have you done for me lately" guy.

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12-23-2004, 11:05 PM
  #52
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Selanne!!.. opps I thought this was for 2nd best Finn ever .. my bad

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12-24-2004, 04:27 PM
  #53
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Chaos, how many more years of stellar play will it take for you to classify Kiprusoff as an elite goalie?

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12-24-2004, 04:34 PM
  #54
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12-24-2004, 04:34 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Well Turco has managed to do it 2 years in a row(4 if you count his 2 years as a backup, but for this, we will ignore that)...so there really is no comparison.
Jim Carey managed to do it for 2 years too

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12-24-2004, 04:39 PM
  #56
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Chaos = Homer.

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12-24-2004, 04:40 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Please, where are all these experts, goaltending guru's, GM's, NHL goaltending consultants and NHL coaches, outside of SJ and Calgary(since those 2 are obviously going to talk nothing but positive about on of THEIR players)?
Goaltending guru Warran Stralew (is a goaltending consultant for many NHL teams around the league) and John Davidson (and Marcoux, but I guess he doesn't count in your books)
GM's included Brian Burke (and Doug Wilson and Sutter, but I guess those 2 don't count in your books)
NHL coaches... well they arn't hard to find. There were quotes throughout the season by many NHL coaches and their assistants saying that Kiprusoff was hardly an unknown commodety. If you didn't know about him, you just weren't paying enough attension.

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12-24-2004, 04:43 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Because I see people claiming Kiprusoff is an elite goalie, or dont really offer much explanation. And its because its all about "what have you done for me lately", and that just annoys me. It just so happens Kiprusoff is that guy. I was the same with Giguere after his playoff run. Nothing personal against Kiprusoff, but he just happens to be the "what have you done for me lately" guy.
Then wow do you ever get pissed off easy

Like I said in the previous post, if you thought Kiprusoff was a nobody before Calgary (or even before Kentucky, when there was tons of talk about the Sharks bringing him over from Finland) then you just weren't paying enough attension.

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12-24-2004, 05:30 PM
  #59
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12-24-2004, 09:07 PM
  #60
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Old
12-24-2004, 09:27 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Jim Carey managed to do it for 2 years too
Jim Carey's best season was in 94-95, posting a 2.13 GAA in 28 games. He followed that up with 2.26 in 71 games. Marty Turco has had 4 consecutive seasons better than that(playing 26, 31, 55, and 73 games respectively). There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between Turco and Carey.

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12-24-2004, 09:28 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuomo#1
Chaos, how many more years of stellar play will it take for you to classify Kiprusoff as an elite goalie?
If he plays a reasonable number of games(60 or so) whenever the NHL starts back up, then I will believe. Until then, 38 regular season and 24 playoff games behind a very very good defense just is not going to convince me.


Last edited by Chaos: 12-24-2004 at 09:40 PM.
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12-24-2004, 09:29 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Then wow do you ever get pissed off easy

Like I said in the previous post, if you thought Kiprusoff was a nobody before Calgary (or even before Kentucky, when there was tons of talk about the Sharks bringing him over from Finland) then you just weren't paying enough attension.
I explained this. I didnt think he was nobody. But when you look at his numbers, putting up a 1.70 GAA kind of comes out of nowhere.

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12-24-2004, 09:30 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~89~
Chaos = Homer.
Thanks for your well articulated, meticulously thought out contribution to this thread .

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12-24-2004, 11:23 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
I explained this. I didnt think he was nobody. But when you look at his numbers, putting up a 1.70 GAA kind of comes out of nowhere.
Do you have anything to back up what you say besides JUST stats?

And what's worse, you discount how proven Kiprusoff is form 38 regular season games, 26 playoff games, however many World Cup games and his play thus far with Timra YET you base your "come out of nowhere stats" on 2 seasons in which he played less then 25 games? What? Wanna stay consistant with your arguments there, Chaos?
(PS: Before those 2 seasons, he posted under 2.00 in the season before, and 1.86 in his last season with TPS before coming over to NA.)

I have to wonder... if Luongo pulls off a below 2.00 GAA next year, will his season be a fluke to you, because those stats would come out of nowhere? In his previous 3 seasons, he posted a 2.43, 2.71 and 2.77 GAA. I really have to wonder about your logic...


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12-24-2004, 11:27 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Jim Carey's best season was in 94-95, posting a 2.13 GAA in 28 games. He followed that up with 2.26 in 71 games. Marty Turco has had 4 consecutive seasons better than that(playing 26, 31, 55, and 73 games respectively). There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between Turco and Carey.
Jim Carey played 4 consecutive seasons better? In those 4 seasons, you included 2 as a backup, and all 4 of which were under a very stingy and good defense core in Dallas - the exact same argument you used to downplay Kiprusoff's accomplishments with the Flames and Finland.

And if Turco was better then Carey for Turco for those 2 starting season's, where's Turco's Vezina? Carey has one.

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12-24-2004, 11:38 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Jim Carey played 4 consecutive seasons better? In those 4 seasons, you included 2 as a backup, and all 4 of which were under a very stingy and good defense core in Dallas - the exact same argument you used to downplay Kiprusoff's accomplishments with the Flames and Finland.

And if Turco was better then Carey for Turco for those 2 starting season's, where's Turco's Vezina? Carey has one.
I never said Carey played 4 seasons better. In fact, I said it was Turco who played 4 consecutive seasons which were all better than Carey's best season(perhaps that wasnt clear). I include 2 of Turco's backup seasons because they were 26 and 31 games respecitvely, compared to one of Carey's good seasons in which he played 28 games(albeit because of a lockout, but its still 28 games). And dont even get me started on the Vezina. Carey didn't have the Lifetime Achievement Award(which the Vezina has turned into) to compete with. But thats a whole different topic entirely.

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12-24-2004, 11:42 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Do you have anything to back up what you say besides JUST stats?

And what's worse, you discount how proven Kiprusoff is form 38 regular season games, 26 playoff games, however many World Cup games and his play thus far with Timra YET you base your "come out of nowhere stats" on 2 seasons in which he played less then 25 games? What? Wanna stay consistant with your arguments there, Chaos?
(PS: Before those 2 seasons, he posted under 2.00 in the season before, and 1.86 in his last season with TPS before coming over to NA.)
Not just two seasons. Try his 2 full seasons in the AHL and 2 out of his 3 years in Finland as a starter(I'll forget about his 4.14 in 12 games in 95-96).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
I have to wonder... if Luongo pulls off a below 2.00 GAA next year, will his season be a fluke to you, because those stats would come out of nowhere? In his previous 3 seasons, he posted a 2.43, 2.71 and 2.77 GAA. I really have to wonder about your logic...
Would I consider it a fluke? Its possible, althought if he manages to do it over more than 38 games I might believe it just a bit more, however I would probably consider it somewhat of a fluke(just like Kiprusoff) until he does it again(just like Kiprusoff).

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12-25-2004, 01:28 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
I never said Carey played 4 seasons better. In fact, I said it was Turco who played 4 consecutive seasons which were all better than Carey's best season(perhaps that wasnt clear).
All 4 seasons (including backup) were better then Carey's Vezina season?

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12-25-2004, 01:44 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Not just two seasons. Try his 2 full seasons in the AHL and 2 out of his 3 years in Finland as a starter(I'll forget about his 4.14 in 12 games in 95-96).



Would I consider it a fluke? Its possible, althought if he manages to do it over more than 38 games I might believe it just a bit more, however I would probably consider it somewhat of a fluke(just like Kiprusoff) until he does it again(just like Kiprusoff).
Wow, 9 years ago he had a crap 12 games and thats suddently important? Yet last years 54 AND World Cup were both flukes? ok

You want to look at Kiprusoff's stats, lets take a look
03-04 has 38 games at a 1.70 GAA and .933 SP
02-03 has 22 games at 3.25 GAA and .879 SP
(Worth noting that Nabokov had inflated stats that year with SJ as well at 2.71 GAA and .906 SP, the worst of his career. Also note that head coach Darryl Sutter said "Not even god could have helped us" when both Kiprusoff and Nabokov were playing on one of the worst teams in the league - which is worth noting considering you find it important enough to point out the Flames and Finland's strong defense)
02-03 has 20 games at a 2.48 GAA and .915 SP, as well as 4 games in the AHL posting a 1.73 GAA and .949 SP
01-02 has 20 NHL games at 2.48 GAA and .915 SP, and 4 AHL games .949 SP
00-01 has 5 NHL games with a 1.95 GAA and .902 SP, and 36 AHL games at 2.24 GAA and .926 SP
99-00 has 47 AHL games with 2.48 GAA and .924 SP, very respectable stats for his first season in NA. First rookie goaltender ever to be a 1st team all-star, I believe. Again, in his first season away from home.
98-99, his last season in Finland, had a sparkling 1.86 GAA and .936 SP, and was thought be Stralow, John Davidson, Jeff Rimer and a few GMs to be the best goaltender outside of North America. It was that year that John Davidson and Jeff Rimer both went on record to say he was better then Calder trophy winner (that year) Evgeny Nabakov, and had the talent to be the best goaltender in the league.
(Anything past isn't worth noting.)

Right now, he's following up his record setting season with the Flames, his play in the 2004 playoffs, and taking Finland to their first ever finals at the World Cup with a sparkling season in the Swedish Elite league (thought of as the best league in the world right now, with the lockout) by leading a very bad Timra to 2nd place in the league with an even better 1.68 GAA (leads the league) and .931 SP.

SCF opponent Freddy Modin had this to say about having Kiprusoff on his team,
"Kipper's one of the best goalies in the world," said Modin, a former Toronto Maple Leaf. "He's been the key to our success here so far this year."
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...702047-cp.html

Complete abberation, out of no where, right? Just 38 regular season games, right?

For someone who goes on and on about "fluke" seasons and small representations, I thought it would be a good idea to take seasons where he plays over 30 games, as it gives a better representation on the goalies play and the fact that a goalie can "get into the groove," something that is INCREDIBLY important, and repeated by many goaltenders such as Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur and Hasek. Taking that into consideration, we have the 03-04 season, 00-01, 99-00 and 98-99:
03-04 has 38 games at a 1.70 GAA and .933 SP
99-00 has 47 AHL games with 2.48 GAA and .924 SP
98-99 has 1.86 GAA and .936 SP

Are you sure you want to write off all the logic, all the statments made by former NHL goaltenders, NHL goaltending guru's, NHL goaltending consultants and NHL GM's, all of which were made before Kiprusoff came to the Flames? All for your flawed logic of 20 games as a backup and some bad stats almost 10 years ago?


Last edited by Phanuthier*: 12-25-2004 at 02:02 AM.
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Old
12-25-2004, 08:14 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Wow, 9 years ago he had a crap 12 games and thats suddently important? Yet last years 54 AND World Cup were both flukes? ok

You want to look at Kiprusoff's stats, lets take a look
03-04 has 38 games at a 1.70 GAA and .933 SP
02-03 has 22 games at 3.25 GAA and .879 SP
(Worth noting that Nabokov had inflated stats that year with SJ as well at 2.71 GAA and .906 SP, the worst of his career. Also note that head coach Darryl Sutter said "Not even god could have helped us" when both Kiprusoff and Nabokov were playing on one of the worst teams in the league - which is worth noting considering you find it important enough to point out the Flames and Finland's strong defense)
02-03 has 20 games at a 2.48 GAA and .915 SP, as well as 4 games in the AHL posting a 1.73 GAA and .949 SP
01-02 has 20 NHL games at 2.48 GAA and .915 SP, and 4 AHL games .949 SP
00-01 has 5 NHL games with a 1.95 GAA and .902 SP, and 36 AHL games at 2.24 GAA and .926 SP
99-00 has 47 AHL games with 2.48 GAA and .924 SP, very respectable stats for his first season in NA. First rookie goaltender ever to be a 1st team all-star, I believe. Again, in his first season away from home.
98-99, his last season in Finland, had a sparkling 1.86 GAA and .936 SP, and was thought be Stralow, John Davidson, Jeff Rimer and a few GMs to be the best goaltender outside of North America. It was that year that John Davidson and Jeff Rimer both went on record to say he was better then Calder trophy winner (that year) Evgeny Nabakov, and had the talent to be the best goaltender in the league.
(Anything past isn't worth noting.)

Right now, he's following up his record setting season with the Flames, his play in the 2004 playoffs, and taking Finland to their first ever finals at the World Cup with a sparkling season in the Swedish Elite league (thought of as the best league in the world right now, with the lockout) by leading a very bad Timra to 2nd place in the league with an even better 1.68 GAA (leads the league) and .931 SP.

SCF opponent Freddy Modin had this to say about having Kiprusoff on his team,
"Kipper's one of the best goalies in the world," said Modin, a former Toronto Maple Leaf. "He's been the key to our success here so far this year."
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...702047-cp.html

Complete abberation, out of no where, right? Just 38 regular season games, right?

For someone who goes on and on about "fluke" seasons and small representations, I thought it would be a good idea to take seasons where he plays over 30 games, as it gives a better representation on the goalies play and the fact that a goalie can "get into the groove," something that is INCREDIBLY important, and repeated by many goaltenders such as Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur and Hasek. Taking that into consideration, we have the 03-04 season, 00-01, 99-00 and 98-99:
03-04 has 38 games at a 1.70 GAA and .933 SP
99-00 has 47 AHL games with 2.48 GAA and .924 SP
98-99 has 1.86 GAA and .936 SP

Are you sure you want to write off all the logic, all the statments made by former NHL goaltenders, NHL goaltending guru's, NHL goaltending consultants and NHL GM's, all of which were made before Kiprusoff came to the Flames? All for your flawed logic of 20 games as a backup and some bad stats almost 10 years ago?
If you want to pick and choose his good seasons, you go right ahead. You keep name dropping these goaltending gurus and what not, but you have yet to produce a quote from any of them. I also wonder, why there was never any of this talk about Kiprusoff when he was in SJ? Oh I know, because his performance on the ice did not merit it. And I wouldn't go calling Timra a bad team. They did make the SEL playoffs this year and added Zetterberg and Modin this year.


Last edited by Chaos: 12-25-2004 at 08:25 AM.
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12-25-2004, 08:16 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
All 4 seasons (including backup) were better then Carey's Vezina season?
In terms of GAA and save %, yes. Carey had a 2.23 and .906 when he won the Vezina. Turco's worst GAA season in the NHL was 01-02, with a 2.09, and his worst save % was 03-04, with a .913.

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12-25-2004, 01:58 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
If you want to pick and choose his good seasons, you go right ahead. You keep name dropping these goaltending gurus and what not, but you have yet to produce a quote from any of them. I also wonder, why there was never any of this talk about Kiprusoff when he was in SJ? Oh I know, because his performance on the ice did not merit it. And I wouldn't go calling Timra a bad team. They did make the SEL playoffs this year and added Zetterberg and Modin this year.
I didn't pick and choose only good seasons. Once again, I picked seasons which gave a best representation - 30 games or more. And even before, I gave stats about all Kiprusoff's seasons in NA and his last year in Finland.

In case you didn't catch that again, the reasons why I picked seasons with more then 30 games is because that's when goaltenders get a chance to get into a groove. Would it make sense for me to include his sparkling 4 games in the AHL where he posted a 1.73 GAA and .949 SP? No, I didn't include that. Like anybody that knows the first thing about stats, for it to have any validity, you have to have a good representation. Why you MUST look at seasons of 20 and 22 games and a season 10 years ago OVER the 3 seasons where he played the most games is really beyond me. Some very flawed logic you have there.

For John Davidson and Jeff Rimer's quotes, in a radio show the year where they were talking about Nabokov's Calder, this was the dialoge:
Rimer: "Many expert's say that as good as Nabokov is with SJ, they actually have a better goaltender in the system. Some guy named Kiprusoff?"
Davidson: "Yes, Miikka Kiprusoff. A relatively unknown (prospect?) from Finland but from many hockey scouts I've talked to, Kiprusoff is the best goaltender outside of the NHL. Put this down for me, don't be surprised if he's better then Nabakov and don't be surprised if he becomes one of the best goaltenders in the league."

As for Warran Strelow's quotes, I've produced it MANY times. Just a quick google search gave this:
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam040506/nhl_calsj1-sun.html

"I'm really happy for him," Strelow said. "It might be the move of the year by Darryl Sutter. He used to come out and shoot with me in practice with the goalies. He knew his talent, the question was if Miikka had the opportunity and found himself.

"I told (Sharks GM) Dougie Wilson the week of the trade, 'Hear it now, don't be surprised if this guy finds himself and becomes an all-star in the National Hockey League.' "

...

"I saw the talent and always told him he'd be a No. 1 guy in the National Hockey League and could be an all-star in the league," he said. "I told him that more than once."


Strelow, whose goaltending stable through the years has included Martin Brodeur, Sean Burke, Pete Peeters, Clint Malarchuk and Craig Billington, always knew about Kiprusoff's athletic talents.

Kiprusoff's footspeed and lateral movement is amazing. His ability to read the play and anticipate is outstanding.

What was up in the air was the goalie's mental skills.

Time has proven he is up to snuff at that aspect of the game, too.

"He's got a real steady personality," Strelow said. "When you get to know him, his dry humour is really funny and sometimes you don't know if he's kidding but he's so calm sometimes you could think he doesn't care.

"A word we talk about is rebound. Rebound after a bad goal, rebound after a bad period, rebound after a bad game. Don't dwell on it -- (look) to the future. It's not easy to handle the good times and the bad with the same emotional stability but the good ones do it.

"I see guys talking about how when Kiprusoff lets in five goals, the next time he's great. That's what it's all about."


Here's 2 others you might want to look at:
http://bruins.bostonherald.com/bruin...92&format=text
http://sharkspage.com/2004_05_01_archive_history.html

Also, I suggest you start listening to some SJ Sharks comments about Kiprusoff, who dropped the ball for them according to you, about their play. As one of their former players and watching him first hand, I strongly suggest you take into consideration some people who followed him closely rather then look at your measley stats.

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12-25-2004, 02:01 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
In terms of GAA and save %, yes. Carey had a 2.23 and .906 when he won the Vezina. Turco's worst GAA season in the NHL was 01-02, with a 2.09, and his worst save % was 03-04, with a .913.
Different era's, different years, different defense cores.

Again, you are looking too much into stats. Think outside of the box.

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12-25-2004, 02:05 PM
  #75
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