I was looking to have a real discussion, not a pissing match.
I'll leave your sandbox now.
When you leave basis for a real discussion we will have one. Don't act wounded, you knew that offer was a non-starter. You compounded it with was a very poor line of thinking. I can look at hockeydb and quickly realize that the #2 pick is more likely to have an immediate impact than not.
Are you aren't getting the #2 overall for Schneider. The #26 is basically a second round pick.
If this was the #12 pick, your offer would be more tollerable and worthy of even considering it.
As an upcoming RFA under contract he can force his way out of town in a very quick manner if he so chooses.
Playing behind the best team in the NHL (standings wise) with a solid defense and a great mentor (Luongo) in a winning crazed market in Canada. He's no doubt a solid goalie, a #1 goalie, but to say he's a top tier goalie when he hasn't played the starter role yet, is preposterous.
"I would hate for the CBJ to rush another prospect and destroy his confidence."
That just gets people here angry, because we haven't rushed a prospect into the league since Gilbert Brule.
The idea was not to piss anyone off. Sorry if it came off that way. The point was that Schneider (who is not overhyped) will do more for your team immediately than a second overall pick. I would think the current regime has a lot of pressure on them to start winning... and soon.
Schneider will go along way in helping Howson keep his job whereas that 2nd round pick will just be a nice gift to whoever replaces him.
I'm not saying Schneider is the only option for you guys, but my proposal is certainly not idiotic.
The idea was not to piss anyone off. Sorry if it came off that way. The point was that Schneider (who is not overhyped) will do more for your team immediately than a second overall pick. I would think the current regime has a lot of pressure on them to start winning... and soon.
Schneider will go along way in helping Howson keep his job whereas that 2nd round pick will just be a nice gift to whoever replaces him.
I'm not saying Schneider is the only option for you guys, but my proposal is certainly not idiotic.
We just had a lengthy discussion as to why trading the #2 for Schneider isn't a good idea. It's a couple pages back in this thread. That's part of why you're not getting more in-depth replies. That discussion was started when a Canucks fan tried to sell us Schneider for the second overall.
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"Every game, every point is a necessity." -- Ty Conklin, January 2007
"I'll have a chance to compete for the post of first issue. This is the most important thing." -- Sergei Bobrovsky, June 2012
I'm not saying Schneider is the only option for you guys, but my proposal is certainly not idiotic.
Idiotic? Perhaps not. Any basis of ever being realistically considered by Howson? Only if he's a moron. What you are offering is not anything close to equal value. Schnider is not worth the #2 and the 26th doesn't close the gap enough to even consider it. Adding a prospect to your side continues to unbalance it.
I will avoid additional comment on the rushing prospect side, you would not like what I really think of that.
Last edited by Double-Shift Lassé: 06-14-2012 at 01:38 PM.
Then keep him. I'd prefer my team lay out less and get Luongo (who has a track record of a dozen years as a high-end starter) than lay out a lot more and get Schneider.
Your underselling Schneider. He was clearly the better player between him and Luongo, and the team played much better behind him as well . No way the Jackets should even consider taking on Luongo and his 5 mill plus to age 40 contract. I understand your point of wanting more experience, but the numbers dont lie, and I'm not an expert by any means but I can clearly see that Schneider has more talent than Luongo. Granted Schneider is young but he would be the #1 goalie I would go after at this point.
Your underselling Schneider. He was clearly the better player between him and Luongo, and the team played much better behind him as well . No way the Jackets should even consider taking on Luongo and his 5 mill plus to age 40 contract. I understand your point of wanting more experience, but the numbers dont lie, and I'm not an expert by any means but I can clearly see that Schneider has more talent than Luongo. Granted Schneider is young but he would be the #1 goalie I would go after at this point.
I'm not underselling anyone.
Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that this is the cost to acquire one of the goalie:
For Schneider - 2nd overall pick
For Luongo - 45th overall pick
Is it still that clear of a situation? This has very little to do with "talent" and a hell of a lot to do with "asset management". It has something to do with "experience", since one has been a high-end starter since he was 21 and the other has never been a starter in the NHL. It may have something to do with "salary", since we know what Luongo is signed for and no one knows what Schneider will command/demand.
Let's go a bit further. Let's say that Anton Forsberg absolutely erupts this season and becomes a top prospect. Does laying out a huge asset to get Schneider still look like such a good idea? Who are the top goalies in the NHL right now, and where were they drafted?
If I had my way, I'd draft a goalie every single year and hope for the home run...until one comes along, patch the hole at the NHL level with short-term solutions. Detroit had massively unsettled goaltending for most of the last 20 years, and it didn't affect their success because "chemistry" is usually a non-factor between a goalie and the team in front of him. Normally, it's something where a goalie either wants shots blocked or he doesn't, depending on how well he can see the puck through a crowd.
Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that this is the cost to acquire one of the goalie:
For Schneider - 2nd overall pick
For Luongo - 45th overall pick
Is it still that clear of a situation? This has very little to do with "talent" and a hell of a lot to do with "asset management". It has something to do with "experience", since one has been a high-end starter since he was 21 and the other has never been a starter in the NHL. It may have something to do with "salary", since we know what Luongo is signed for and no one knows what Schneider will command/demand.
Let's go a bit further. Let's say that Anton Forsberg absolutely erupts this season and becomes a top prospect. Does laying out a huge asset to get Schneider still look like such a good idea? Who are the top goalies in the NHL right now, and where were they drafted?
If I had my way, I'd draft a goalie every single year and hope for the home run...until one comes along, patch the hole at the NHL level with short-term solutions. Detroit had massively unsettled goaltending for most of the last 20 years, and it didn't affect their success because "chemistry" is usually a non-factor between a goalie and the team in front of him. Normally, it's something where a goalie either wants shots blocked or he doesn't, depending on how well he can see the puck through a crowd.
The cost of aquiring Luongo in my eyes is a bigger risk. We just hung on to Mason for the past 3 years because his contract, and we didnt want to pay him to sit the bench. What if Luongos age catches up to him more and more, and your stuck with 7 years left at 5 mill a pop. They would have to give him away for free to us, for howson to hopefully consider this. Schneider for the second pick ? Ideally he is probably worth it. He is a young elite goaltender, in the mold of Jonathan Quick. Nashville has done pretty well with their elite goaltender. Our current defenseman, with a Cory Schneider is probably a decent chance of making the playoffs next year. We would need to aquire a few good offensive pieces in the Nash trade. Maybe we get the 5th back in exchange for Nash to Toronto, pick Forsberg/ Galchenyuk . Then in one offseason, we have solved our goaltending issue, still drafted possibly a future franchise player, plus we have the LA Pick, and the first in the second.
Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that this is the cost to acquire one of the goalie:
For Schneider - 2nd overall pick
For Luongo - 45th overall pick
Is it still that clear of a situation? This has very little to do with "talent" and a hell of a lot to do with "asset management". It has something to do with "experience", since one has been a high-end starter since he was 21 and the other has never been a starter in the NHL. It may have something to do with "salary", since we know what Luongo is signed for and no one knows what Schneider will command/demand.
Let's go a bit further. Let's say that Anton Forsberg absolutely erupts this season and becomes a top prospect. Does laying out a huge asset to get Schneider still look like such a good idea? Who are the top goalies in the NHL right now, and where were they drafted?
If I had my way, I'd draft a goalie every single year and hope for the home run...until one comes along, patch the hole at the NHL level with short-term solutions. Detroit had massively unsettled goaltending for most of the last 20 years, and it didn't affect their success because "chemistry" is usually a non-factor between a goalie and the team in front of him. Normally, it's something where a goalie either wants shots blocked or he doesn't, depending on how well he can see the puck through a crowd.
Taking it a step further but in a different direction, suppose Anton Forsberg sucks up the joint this next season and develops masonesque characteristics. Now suppose (since we are doing such to make our arguments) the guy the Jackets draft turns out to be another in a line of Jacket busts while Schneider, who has played successfully in the NHL already, goes on to a stellar career. Pretty lousy asset management if you ask me. The point is no one knows if trading the #2 for Schneider would be a good move or not. Probably we'll never know but i for one would consider it if Schneider was signed long term before the deal.
Schneider and 26th overall for 2nd overall and a prospect.
You in?
No way. Even though I want Schneider I wouldn't give up more than LA's 1st and Methot. Obviously that's a big no from VAN, but he hasn't proven anything as a starter. I'm just willing to take a chance on him.
Of course you would. It is almost as silly the other way as the trades we are having proposed by the Canucks fans. It is a trade for the #30 overall pick in the draft (with the thin veneer with Calvert that maybe he can become something) and it does nothing to help the Canucks who are still a team that wants to win now.
The cost of aquiring Luongo in my eyes is a bigger risk. We just hung on to Mason for the past 3 years because his contract, and we didnt want to pay him to sit the bench. What if Luongos age catches up to him more and more, and your stuck with 7 years left at 5 mill a pop. They would have to give him away for free to us, for howson to hopefully consider this. Schneider for the second pick ? Ideally he is probably worth it. He is a young elite goaltender, in the mold of Jonathan Quick. Nashville has done pretty well with their elite goaltender. Our current defenseman, with a Cory Schneider is probably a decent chance of making the playoffs next year. We would need to aquire a few good offensive pieces in the Nash trade. Maybe we get the 5th back in exchange for Nash to Toronto, pick Forsberg/ Galchenyuk . Then in one offseason, we have solved our goaltending issue, still drafted possibly a future franchise player, plus we have the LA Pick, and the first in the second.
If I'm trading the 2nd overall pick for someone who's 8 years older than the kid being drafted, I don't want to hear some crap about "in the mold of".
Jonathan Quick....younger than Schneider, drafted in the middle of the 3rd round.
Pekka Rinne....8th-round pick.
Henrik Lundqvist...7th-round pick.
Drafting goalies seems to be little more than throwing darts; these are the three most prominent examples, but not the only ones.
To your question of "what to do with Luongo", he'd still have a ton of value if his play drops off. He has a track record. If Schneider is acquired and drops off, his value plummets because he's never been a starter. Jeff Carter's value wasn't hurt too badly because he has a track record. If that deal had been made for Jordan Staal and he played like Carter, his value would take a beating because the perception would be that he couldn't handle top-line minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK
Taking it a step further but in a different direction, suppose Anton Forsberg sucks up the joint this next season and develops masonesque characteristics. Now suppose (since we are doing such to make our arguments) the guy the Jackets draft turns out to be another in a line of Jacket busts while Schneider, who has played successfully in the NHL already, goes on to a stellar career. Pretty lousy asset management if you ask me. The point is no one knows if trading the #2 for Schneider would be a good move or not. Probably we'll never know but i for one would consider it if Schneider was signed long term before the deal.
Of course no one knows for sure. I don't know for sure that trading Rick Nash for the rights to Petr Buzek is a bad idea...maybe Nash loses his passion and decides to retire anyway, and Buzek misses the game and comes back. Maybe Buzek becomes a third-pairing defenseman and ends up playing 50 games before retiring again. But that would be 50 more than a retired Nash would be playing, so maybe this is a good deal.
Want to make that deal, because "no one knows"? I mean, we don't have track records or common sense to rely on...why not make a MacLeanesque deal?
Of course you would. It is almost as silly the other way as the trades we are having proposed by the Canucks fans. It is a trade for the #30 overall pick in the draft (with the thin veneer with Calvert that maybe he can become something) and it does nothing to help the Canucks who are still a team that wants to win now.
Draft pick was for 2013 and not this years draft. So if the Kings don't repeat, then the pick would be better and apparently, next Summer's draft is suppose to be deep. With that said, Calvert/pick doesn't help the Canucks at all and would be looking for NHL ready impact players.
If I'm trading the 2nd overall pick for someone who's 8 years older than the kid being drafted, I don't want to hear some crap about "in the mold of".
Jonathan Quick....younger than Schneider, drafted in the middle of the 3rd round.
Pekka Rinne....8th-round pick.
Henrik Lundqvist...7th-round pick.
Drafting goalies seems to be little more than throwing darts; these are the three most prominent examples, but not the only ones.
To your question of "what to do with Luongo", he'd still have a ton of value if his play drops off. He has a track record. If Schneider is acquired and drops off, his value plummets because he's never been a starter. Jeff Carter's value wasn't hurt too badly because he has a track record. If that deal had been made for Jordan Staal and he played like Carter, his value would take a beating because the perception would be that he couldn't handle top-line minutes.
Of course no one knows for sure. I don't know for sure that trading Rick Nash for the rights to Petr Buzek is a bad idea...maybe Nash loses his passion and decides to retire anyway, and Buzek misses the game and comes back. Maybe Buzek becomes a third-pairing defenseman and ends up playing 50 games before retiring again. But that would be 50 more than a retired Nash would be playing, so maybe this is a good deal.
Want to make that deal, because "no one knows"? I mean, we don't have track records or common sense to rely on...why not make a MacLeanesque deal?
So maybe it makes sense to trade for a guy with a .937 save % and a 1.97 gaa? Just asking
So maybe it makes sense to trade for a guy with a .937 save % and a 1.97 gaa? Just asking
What would you trade for a 23-year-old goalie with a 1.88 GAA and a .931 save percentage while backing up a pretty good starter? It's a guarantee that he'll be a starter himself within two years. Would you trade the #2 overall pick? Maybe a five-time All-Star forward?
What would you trade for a 23-year-old goalie with a 1.88 GAA and a .931 save percentage while backing up a pretty good starter? It's a guarantee that he'll be a starter himself within two years. Would you trade the #2 overall pick? Maybe a five-time All-Star forward?
OH NO! Upon rereading my response, I think I have fallen victim to a Mayor stat. Probably some guy who bombed out. Still because I believe your examples like that hold no statistical validity and I can come up with as many flame outs like Filatov & Daigle, etc. to make the same point about other potential draft picks, the following still holds in regard to Schneider.
At the risk of yes I'd seriously consider trading the #2 for him. Given that the draft is a crapshoot in most years and this year's appears to be more than most I fail to see why taking a chance on a guy who has pretty decent record in the league (and as one 'Nucks fan pointed out on a team not noted for its Torts-like style of play) and fills an immediate and pressing need is any riskier than a guy who missed a year with injury, a 17 year old who is at least 2 years away from the NHL, a potential attitude case or a guy who suffered a serious concussion last year. The potential reward for all those and Schneider is pretty high.
As for the 5 year all-star, if the rest of the package was sufficient, yes, I'd consider it.
In both cases, Schneider would have to be signed before the deal is made.
Lots of people on the board want immediate improvement; adding a good goalie is imperative for that to happen. I don't see any team, with the slight exception of SJ giving up a proven starting goalie in any trade for Nash or any other package. And to get such a player would require assets that are far more valuable to the Jackets than the other guys.
We obviously disagree on this topic and I know I'm in the minority but its my opinion and it isn't going to change nor will yours so lets wait and see what happens.
Last edited by EspenK: 06-15-2012 at 06:10 AM.
Reason: Added the OH NO paragraph
I'd be disappointed if Howson didn't listen to offers for the second pick. If there's a deal to be made that makes the club better now, he has to consider it. Call it job preservation. I wouldn't get too wound up about it though, any deal for the second pick is going to have to be a doozie. Howson's phone will blow up if the Oilers take Murray #1 and Yakupov is there for the taking.
If I'm trading the 2nd overall pick for someone who's 8 years older than the kid being drafted, I don't want to hear some crap about "in the mold of".
Jonathan Quick....younger than Schneider, drafted in the middle of the 3rd round.
Pekka Rinne....8th-round pick.
Henrik Lundqvist...7th-round pick.
Drafting goalies seems to be little more than throwing darts; these are the three most prominent examples, but not the only ones.
To your question of "what to do with Luongo", he'd still have a ton of value if his play drops off. He has a track record. If Schneider is acquired and drops off, his value plummets because he's never been a starter. Jeff Carter's value wasn't hurt too badly because he has a track record. If that deal had been made for Jordan Staal and he played like Carter, his value would take a beating because the perception would be that he couldn't handle top-line minutes.
Of course no one knows for sure. I don't know for sure that trading Rick Nash for the rights to Petr Buzek is a bad idea...maybe Nash loses his passion and decides to retire anyway, and Buzek misses the game and comes back. Maybe Buzek becomes a third-pairing defenseman and ends up playing 50 games before retiring again. But that would be 50 more than a retired Nash would be playing, so maybe this is a good deal.
Want to make that deal, because "no one knows"? I mean, we don't have track records or common sense to rely on...why not make a MacLeanesque deal?
So not to distort the facts, Schneider is 26 , so by now means old. As a matter of fact we could sign him to a 7 year deal, and he would then at the end of his contract, be the same age as Luongo now. Stats wise, Schneider has put up better stats than Luongo the past 2 season, behind the same defense. With close to a 94% save percentage. I would be willing to bet in the future he is an all star goalie. Did you realize that both Schneider and Luongo where goalies taken in the first round, believe Luongo was 4th overall. That being said, I wouldnt entertain trading our #2 pick in this draft, unless maybe we pick up Toronto's #5 pick in first round in a deal with Nash . If we could pick up a Schneider, and still snag a Galchenyuk, Forsberg, or Reinhart, plus still have La's pick in first if needed, that would be a nice start to the offseason. As for the track history, maybe you are jaded with what Mason has done to us, but you cant discount a player, just because he hasnt played enough seasons. You trust your scouts. Different sport, but have you watched Kevin Durant lately ? If we had the option to pick him up, or Kevin Garnett who has been a stud for 15 years, would you pass on Durant, and go with Garnett , when building a team for the future ? Durant doesnt have the track history, but you can see he is just an elite player. I dont see how our #2 pick is more likely to be a success, when he has never played a game in the Nhl, than Cory Schneider. Luongo just doesnt make sense on a team that may be atleast 2-3 years away from challenging for the cup (best case scenario), he would be 36 years old at that point.
Look around this roster. Not too many movable pieces to help with an "immediate retool to be competitive".
Right now, this pick is our second best asset. Field offers, none to the liking then make the pick. I'd be more disappointed if Howson said trading the pick isn't on the table at all.
Exactly, you have to listen to offers for that pick, make it clear you could possibly take it if you offer up the right deal. Is it likely we trade the pick? I'd hope not, but that doesn't mean we don't make it seem available to possibly make our team better. That's what Howson needs to do, clearly.
That being said, I almost feel like I should expect Howson to just screw us over and trade it away for a joke package....Nah, he wouldn't do that. Right?
yes I'd seriously consider trading the #2 for him. Given that the draft is a crapshoot in most years and this year's appears to be more than most I fail to see why taking a chance on a guy who has pretty decent record in the league (and as one 'Nucks fan pointed out on a team not noted for its Torts-like style of play) and fills an immediate and pressing need is any riskier than a guy who missed a year with injury, a 17 year old who is at least 2 years away from the NHL, a potential attitude case or a guy who suffered a serious concussion last year. The potential reward for all those and Schneider is pretty high. 
, believe Luongo was 4th overall. That being said, I wouldnt entertain trading our #2 pick in this draft, unless maybe we pick up Toronto's #5 pick in first round in a deal with Nash . If we could pick up a Schneider, and still snag a Galchenyuk, Forsberg, or Reinhart, plus still have La's pick in first if needed, that would be a nice start to the offseason. As for the track history, maybe you are jaded with what Mason has done to us, but you cant discount a player, just because he hasnt played enough seasons. You trust your scouts. Different sport, but have you watched Kevin Durant lately ? If we had the option to pick him up, or Kevin Garnett who has been a stud for 15 years, would you pass on Durant, and go with Garnett , when building a team for the future ? Durant doesnt have the track history, but you can see he is just an elite player. I dont see how our #2 pick is more likely to be a success, when he has never played a game in the Nhl, than Cory Schneider. Luongo just doesnt make sense on a team that may be atleast 2-3 years away from challenging for the cup (best case scenario), he would be 36 years old at that point.
