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2012 CBJ Offseason Part II (Proposals? Speculation? Blog Rumors? Right here.)

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06-10-2012, 01:31 AM
  #151
Viqsi
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
I believe that your're mistaken in thinking nothing can be learned from fiction. If you choose to learn nothing from the imagination of others, you're limited to only what you, yourself, can imagine. That seems very limiting to me.
That was essentially my counterpoint, although I submit that quality fiction is necessary, and I have frequently found that awkward to come by.

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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
This is certainly acceptable. This assures that we can play Johansen in the top six next season, where he should be be, vs. having his situation determined game to game.
Wait. So your goal is to take one of our prospects, pencil him in on the top-6, and then ensure he'll stay there by trading away the rest of our center depth?

G-d forbid you ever become a GM, hon.

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06-10-2012, 03:11 AM
  #152
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Again what is it that makes you believe he prefers Forsberg?

I am not trying to be an ass, I'm really not. I'm trying to figure out how/where this supposed preference seems to have taken hold.

Picking between the two I also would pick Galchenyuk.

It seems to me that so much has been made about the two centers and who would go to MTL and who would go to TML that the wishful thinking just forgets the #2 pick belongs to CBL and well they just pick Forsberg to replace Nash.

I do not mean to dismis Forsbergs talent. He may just have the highest ceiling of any prospect in the draft, but that doesn't make him the best pick.
I think this is probably the source of the confusion, Porty didn't exactly say "they LOVE Forsberg":

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...uttlebutt.html

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-- Left the NHL scouting combine believing the Blue Jackets are much higher on Swedish winger Filip Forsberg than most would think.
Pretty weak, seems like just a hunch to me.

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06-10-2012, 05:00 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
Again, it all seems to be to lots and lots of second hand stuff. CBJ are trading Nash, the CBJ will need a winger to take his place, Forsberg is similar to Nash. Ergo

CBJ LOVE Forsberg

Other posters come in here see comments, back to other boards, back to the mains and what do you know

CBJ LOVE Forsberg

I too have seen lots of posts and mocks with Forsberg going to CBL, same ones have Galchenyuk falling to the Leafs cuz they need a center, like we don't?

I don't even remember AP saying anything. It might just happen but I'm not buying it at this point. If anybody can point me to some kind of substantial iinformation I'd appreciate it.

Thanks
I've seen it reported by more than just message board people that Columbus loves Forsberg. I just go by what I read in the news, I don't have a clue who the prefer, all I know is Forsberg has been talked about a lot.

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06-10-2012, 01:02 PM
  #154
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Wait. So your goal is to take one of our prospects, pencil him in on the top-6, and then ensure he'll stay there by trading away the rest of our center depth?

G-d forbid you ever become a GM, hon.
Sweetheart, no player on this roster is the poster child for quitting on coaching the last three years more than Derick Brassard, something the apologists have chalked up to constant "mishandling" of him. If its one thing you can take to the bank, its that penciling in Brassard is just as, if not more risky then penciling in Johansen into the top six.

One of Howson's goals this offseason as soon as Carter decided he didn't want to be here should have been to go out and get a skilled center that would be able to play in the top six. I'm not saying he needs to swing for the fences with the move, but how does anybody get excited by seeing our NHL center depth currently.

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06-10-2012, 01:06 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Sweetheart, no player on this roster is the poster child for quitting on coaching the last three years more than Derick Brassard, something the apologists have chalked up to constant "mishandling" of him. If its one thing you can take to the bank, its that penciling in Brassard is just as, if not more risky then penciling in Johansen into the top six.

One of Howson's goals this offseason as soon as Carter decided he didn't want to be here should have been to go out and get a skilled center that would be able to play in the top six. I'm not saying he needs to swing for the fences with the move, but how does anybody get excited by seeing our NHL center depth currently.
That's a pretty heavy accusation, and I don't equate "lack of production" with "lack of effort". Antoine Vermette did absolutely nothing since Hitchcock was canned, and no one's accused him of laying down...for some reason, Brassard is a popular target.

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06-10-2012, 01:17 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
One of Howson's goals this offseason as soon as Carter decided he didn't want to be here should have been to go out and get a skilled center that would be able to play in the top six. I'm not saying he needs to swing for the fences with the move, but how does anybody get excited by seeing our NHL center depth currently.
Just like that. Head down to the local NHL deli and order up. I'll have one order of a top six center please, sliced thin if you would.

Every 3rd trade thread is a team looking for just exactly that.

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06-10-2012, 01:27 PM
  #157
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Just like that. Head down to the local NHL deli and order up. I'll have one order of a top six center please, sliced thin if you would.

Every 3rd trade thread is a team looking for just exactly that.
So we should just go into next season as is? Because "most teams are looking for one?"

We have trade pieces and bullets to use... Howson's job is to improve this team. Right now, our top six-caliber centerman are woefully inadequete to compete. Here's your List of possible top 2 centerman: Brass, Johan, Umby (probably on the wing though) and Letestu (who should be on the third line)

Right now, by default, Brassard is your number one center.... With the way his career as gone thus far, that doesn't fill me with confidence.

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06-10-2012, 01:44 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
So we should just go into next season as is? Because "most teams are looking for one?"

We have trade pieces and bullets to use... Howson's job is to improve this team. Right now, our top six-caliber centerman are woefully inadequete to compete. Here's your List of possible top 2 centerman: Brass, Johan, Umby (probably on the wing though) and Letestu (who should be on the third line)

Right now, by default, Brassard is your number one center.... With the way his career as gone thus far, that doesn't fill me with confidence.
Nothing he does fills you with confidence.

The point made previously was you want to just promote Johansen to the top six, "where he belongs". Isn't he just as much a question, or more so?

My problem was the assumption that nothing is being done to improve things. Before we start judging the condition of the line up don't you think we ought to see who's there?

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06-10-2012, 02:22 PM
  #159
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Nothing he does fills you with confidence.

The point made previously was you want to just promote Johansen to the top six, "where he belongs". Isn't he just as much a question, or more so?

My problem was the assumption that nothing is being done to improve things. Before we start judging the condition of the line up don't you think we ought to see who's there?
I never made that assumption. I said "right now our top six-caliber centerman are woefully inadequete to compete." We still do have the offseason, but I'd make the aforementioned deal because it addresses two main weaknesses. Which is goaltending and overall talent, Neuwirth is coming off an injury but had a decent 10-11 season, is young and would immediately be at least a backup option. And the 11th overall helps us add another very talented player to our system, it could also be used to parlay another top six type player we probably need this offseason. Schultz, at one time, was the NHL leader in plus/minuss, he's come back to earth a bit, but he should still be very servicable in the top six on defense. The only real downside to this deal would be losing Tyutin, who's be steady, if unspectactular, but it also takes a big contract off our books, leaving us more room to maneuver.

He still has time, but I think he needs to find another center capable of playing top six minutes each night. Brassard can't be counted on and I'd rather not have Johansen toiling on the third and fourth lines each night. In hindsight, perhaps it was a big mistake to not send Johansen back to Portland last season, but the kid needs ice time if they are intent on keeping him in Columbus to develop.

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06-10-2012, 02:41 PM
  #160
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If I remember correctly if you project Brass' performance from the Richards era, he projects at around 60 points. With a bit of improvement he could be around 65-of course without Nash on his wing that total may suffer.

Johansen either needs to be capable of playing more minutes than last year or go to the A. And his minutes need to be top 6 or it shoudl be the A for him. Another year of Seguin-like development as a 4th line winger doesn't seem like a great plan to me.

Top 6 centers are not a dime a dozen so obtaining one could be a bit problematic unless one is returned in the Nash trade (Krejci or Pavelski? - is Stepan ready for 2nd line?).

All in all, center remains a big question mark although some think Letestu can handle the job as 2nd line C based on his last 20 games.

One way to help solve the problem for the future is to draft a potentially great center. Anyone know how we could accomplish that?

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06-10-2012, 02:51 PM
  #161
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i feel like we have 3 #2Cs in Brass, Letestu, and Johan...I advocate drafting Galy just on that fact that he appears to be a legit #1C talent...and allows us some freedom in the upcoming years to have a symbolance of balance in our top 6...and allows Johan to continue developing up here...

I also do not have faith in any consistency from Brass

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06-10-2012, 02:53 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
This is certainly acceptable. This assures that we can play Johansen in the top six next season, where he should be be, vs. having his situation determined game to game.

I'd hate to break up the Tyutin-Nikitin pairing, but I think we'd have to give up more than just Methot....
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Sweetheart, no player on this roster is the poster child for quitting on coaching the last three years more than Derick Brassard, something the apologists have chalked up to constant "mishandling" of him. If its one thing you can take to the bank, its that penciling in Brassard is just as, if not more risky then penciling in Johansen into the top six.

One of Howson's goals this offseason as soon as Carter decided he didn't want to be here should have been to go out and get a skilled center that would be able to play in the top six. I'm not saying he needs to swing for the fences with the move, but how does anybody get excited by seeing our NHL center depth currently.
"Should have been" indicates that you expect the result to have already been done. Until such time that the roster is set I can't make that assumption.

It seems to be your opinion that Johanson is better suited to handle top six time than Brassard and thus assure him of the ice time. The cry for accountability, earning a spot on the roster says otherwise. If he can't earn the top six he goes to Springfield.

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06-10-2012, 02:55 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
If I remember correctly if you project Brass' performance from the Richards era, he projects at around 60 points. With a bit of improvement he could be around 65-of course without Nash on his wing that total may suffer.

Johansen either needs to be capable of playing more minutes than last year or go to the A. And his minutes need to be top 6 or it shoudl be the A for him. Another year of Seguin-like development as a 4th line winger doesn't seem like a great plan to me.

Top 6 centers are not a dime a dozen so obtaining one could be a bit problematic unless one is returned in the Nash trade (Krejci or Pavelski? - is Stepan ready for 2nd line?).

All in all, center remains a big question mark although some think Letestu can handle the job as 2nd line C based on his last 20 games.

One way to help solve the problem for the future is to draft a potentially great center. Anyone know how we could accomplish that?
"Projection" and "Potential" have been the best defenses for Brass in the past. The one bit of credit I will give him through all of this is that I don't think we've seen his best, but at the same time, I'm not sure we'll ever see his best here.

I agree with the premise on Johan. If he's penciled into the bottom six, send him to the "A" and play him like a horse down there. If he's here, he's gotta be in the top six.

I don't disagree that it will be a challenge to get another top six capable center, but the Nash trade should be the great equalizer on that front, the names potentially that have been bandied about, Krecji, Pavelski, etc would come in immediately as our best center, and we have an additional first rounder that we can package (might have to temper expectations on that unless someone blows us away), even maybe using the 2nd overall if need be in some sort of package for some league caliber players.

We will have a decent amount of cap space if the organization doesn't feel burned by Carter and wants to take a run at someone else near that caliber.

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06-10-2012, 03:00 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
"Should have been" indicates that you expect the result to have already been done. Until such time that the roster is set I can't make that assumption.

It seems to be your opinion that Johanson is better suited to handle top six time than Brassard and thus assure him of the ice time. The cry for accountability, earning a spot on the roster says otherwise. If he can't earn the top six he goes to Springfield.
I believe my quote was "Where he should be"... that can be interepted as the present or the future.... And it was meant to be the future since this was the previous text of that qoute : "This assures we can play Johansen in the top six next season..............."

I'm done arguing schemantics. If you want to continue this conversation, PM me.

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06-10-2012, 03:08 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
I believe my quote was "Where he should be"... that can be interepted as the present or the future.... And it was meant to be the future since this was the previous text of that qoute : "This assures we can play Johansen in the top six next season..............."

I'm done arguing schemantics. If you want to continue this conversation, PM me.

Let's just wait and see what the roster looks like in the end. Then we can argue the relative merits of who should be where.

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06-10-2012, 08:42 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
"Projection" and "Potential" have been the best defenses for Brass in the past. The one bit of credit I will give him through all of this is that I don't think we've seen his best, but at the same time, I'm not sure we'll ever see his best here.
...so basically you're equating Brassard with Steve Mason?

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06-10-2012, 10:36 PM
  #167
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...so basically you're equating Brassard with Steve Mason?
It is true both have been up and down in their short careers, the one significant difference, there are six top forwards every night and usually only one goalie.. If you want to be an NHL goalie you must be capable of accepting the focus, if there were six goalies every night Mason might not be the ire of so many.

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06-11-2012, 10:45 AM
  #168
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...so basically you're equating Brassard with Steve Mason?
No... We've seen Mason's best. He's never going to be that good, ever again. Mason's never going to be where he was during his first season again, but he can settle into a role as, probably I think, a top 20 starter in the league for a handful of years.... I just think there's been too much goodwill burned here the last three seasons to do it and I think its a question of not if he needs developmental time in the minors, but how much he needs.

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06-11-2012, 08:58 PM
  #169
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To spend the #2 pick on anyone, he'd damn well better have about a 90% chance of being a perennial All-Star player. If that potential is not there, fall back and either accumulate picks or move it for someone who does have that potential (or is there already). Standing pat at #2 and picking someone who tops out at even a half-notch below All-Star level isn't something I would do.

In the case of Schneider, who has the only emphatic answer from me in this scenario, it's very simple. I don't think he's proved any more at the NHL level than any of a number of other more lightly-regarded goalies have. I think he's overrated for two reasons:
1) He's in Vancouver, and
2) He's backing up a perennial whipping boy in Luongo. Vancouver fans went through years of a Dan Cloutier/Alex Auld combo, where every save was an adventure and every shot stood a good chance of ending up in the back of the net.
1). It's like you looked at the top of the regular season standings, saw Canucks there, and assumed their goaltenders are "overrated"! LOL anyone who watches the Canucks on a regular basis knows there is NO WAY they win the President's Trophy 2 years in a row without their two elite goaltenders playing the way they have been. Canucks haven't exactly been playing trap hockey here buddy, just the opposite! Canucks give up more quality scoring chances than most teams....

2). First of all, Luongo has only been the "whipping boy" in regards to a handful of specific playoff games. Thousands of Vancouver fans still chant "LOOO!!" after every routine save. And not sure why you raise the spector of the Cloutier/Auld era....

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This year, there were 10 goalies younger than Schneider who saw a decent amount of action. Those are Carey Price, Ondrej Pavelec, Semyon Varlamov, Devan Dubnyk, Steve Mason, Michal Neuvirth, James Reimer, Sergei Bobrovsky, Tuukka Rask, and Jhonas Enroth. Enroth is the only one who has less career games than Schneider, and Schneider is older than all of them.
Varlamov is 2 years younger than Schneider with similar NHL experience and lesser numbers. He was traded for an at-the-time potential lottery pick + high second rounder (so not sure how including him helps your argument). Price and Rask are only one year younger, and similar in value to, Schneider. Schneids is only 17 days older than Dubnyk btw, and Dubnyk doesn’t come anywhere near Schneider’s stats/pedigree. Ditto with Pavelec and Enroth. Mason, Neuvirth, Reimer, and Bobrovsky are just downright HORRIBLE.

Really not sure where you’re going with this, most NHL fans/scouts/GMs rate Schneider much higher than anyone on your list with the possible exceptions of Price and Rask.

Either one of Schneider/Price/Rask are worth CLOSE to the value of 2nd overall in the 2012 draft imo

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Goalies who are both younger and played fewer than 20 games this year (and will be either backups or rotating starters next year) are Jonathan Bernier, Anders Lindback, Matt Hackett, Ben Bishop, Braden Holtby, Jacob Markstrom, Leland Irving, Robin Lehner, Dustin Tokarski, and Kevin Poulin. Every one of those guys is younger than Schneider.
Why does age matter so much to you?

None of those guys can carry a candle to Schneider, so who cares how old they are?
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So the real question isn't "how much should we shell out for Schneider", it's "what really separates Schneider from the rest of this pack of 20 goalies?" They're all younger, in some cases multiple years younger. When they're as old as what Schneider is now, will they be better, worse, or the same?
Schneider is separated from that “pack” of yours (other than possibly Price/Rask) by proving himself to be a #1 NHL goaltender last season, still with huge upside, at age of 26.

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And then the other question is, where were these goalies drafted? Those aren't exactly a group of elite prospects coming into the league, with the exception of Carey Price. There are some late first-rounders in there, but a bunch who went late in the draft. That's in the last 6-7 years that all these guys were picked...so again, why Schneider?
Because Schneider is clearly the best of the bunch (with possible exceptions Price/Rask).

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Understand where I'm coming from. I'm in the midst of a project to compile all the expansion draft unprotected lists from 1991-2000, and part of that is digging through various shenanigans. Teams exposed players who had long since retired, and in some cases were actively coaching somewhere. They'd do the usual business of "take this guy, and we'll make it worth your while". So one thing I'm doing is being constantly reminded of exactly how comparable this situation is to Mike Dunham and Martin Brodeur in 1996 and 1997. 10 times, New Jersey put Dunham in net just to get him games played credits specifically for the 1998 expansion draft...5 of those appearances were for one single shift. It got nasty; there was talk of arbitration and of lawsuits because of how New Jersey was doing this. Finally the league got fed up and adjusted the expansion draft rules to basically force Dunham to be eligible, and he was taken by Nashville. His career didn't come close to what was expected; he was decent, but not much more than that.

Now, would you give up a #2 overall pick in any draft to get a goalie who's merely serviceable?

Oh, and I forget...at the time of the expansion draft, Dunham was younger than what Schneider is right now.
You're winking so is it save to assume you went through all that just make a joke?

Surely you're not calling Schneider "merely serviceable" amirite?

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06-11-2012, 09:02 PM
  #170
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It has nothing to do with whether there's anyone demonstrably better. Given the choice between keeping the #2 pick and gambling on another goalie either in free agency or in the trade market, or losing the pick and getting Schneider, I'm keeping the pick.
That's fair enough.

Personally I'd give up the #2, but fair enough...

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Cory Schneider is 8 years older than whoever will be drafted with that pick.
Well it takes time to develop players (especially goaltenders).

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The salary that he will command will be substantially higher than whoever will be drafted with that pick.
Are you expecting a goalie to come in and be your #1 on an entry-level contract??

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And, as we've seen plenty of times, including with three separate teams this season (Ottawa, St. Louis, and Phoenix), a goalie reclaimed off the scrap heap for nothing can pay enormous dividends in a very short period of time.
Yes, sometimes a team wins on that kind of gamble (and sometimes a team loses).

Although one could argue Anderson on a 4-year $12.8mil contract means the 31-year-old merely earned his keep last season and all bets are off moving forward. One SHOULD argue that with all the struggles Elliot has had over his career that last season was a fluke. The fact he signed an extention 5 months ago (more than halfway through his stellar season) for a mere $1.8mil-per, rather than become a UFA this summer could be seen as a sign both he and his agent think it was likely a fluke. One SHOULD argue it was a fluke that inconsistent never-been-a-starter 30-year-old Smith finally played like a legitimate #1 (he makes more than the average backup with his $2mil-per).

But yes sometimes "scrap-heapers" pay off (usually they don't).

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By this point, Schneider has lost all of his actual development years, and at least 1 prime year, by backing up Luongo. Those years cannot just simply be reclaimed; they're gone forever.
Schneider was developed slowly, carefully, the way a goaltender should be developed.

It's really reaching to try to turn that into a negative.

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If I'm interested in a goalie from Vancouver, it'd be Luongo. He's proven that he can be a high-level starter in the NHL; he's only done it for 11 or so years by now. He's past his prime, but his cost will likely be lower. And if a deal can't be done there, move on to the next guy.
So what is your best offer for Lou?

And how much would the Canucks have to add in a Nash deal?

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06-11-2012, 09:04 PM
  #171
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Schneider is not only mostly unknown, but he's also got age on him that a lot of good young goalies do not.
Age?? The kid just turned 26 three months ago!

He earned 33 starts last season despite the fact Canucks have Luongo.

With a .937 save%!

Then he takes over from Lou in the post-season with .960 in three games.

"Unknown"?? Take a peek at the Rumours Board, fans are screaming for their teams to offer-sheet him at $4.5mil+. It's fine for you to have your opinion, but I hope you know there are not many hardcore fans out there who agree with you.


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There also isn't a long track record of success for goalies in his particular situation; trust me, there are some highly-touted and highly-regarded goalies in the lists I provided who simply did nothing.
Trust YOU? Scouting reports had this kid listed as a future elite NHLer two years ago while he was winning awards as an AHL all-star. Since then he has played 76 NHL games putting up some of the best numbers in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
If Cory Schneider were in St. Louis instead of Vancouver, would he be regarded as so much better than Ben Bishop was that it justifies this massive additional expense? Bishop is younger by a few months, and his numbers suffer compared to Schneider because of the quality of the team in front of him.
WOW, Bishop didn't play a single game for St Louis last season and has never been better than average at any level. He has pretty much stunk it up in his 23 career NHL games, comparing him to a player like Schneider is laughable my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I'm not saying that I would ignore Schneider entirely. But if it means sinking a second-round pick on Luongo versus #2 overall for Schneider, I'm taking Luongo without blinking.
You keeping making statements that indicate you think Schneider is substantually better than Top-Ten-forever Luongo. AND you constantly compare fringe NHL goalies to Schneider. Is it fair to assume you're just playing "devil's advocate" with your anti-Schneider stance?

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06-11-2012, 09:19 PM
  #172
FANonymous
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We are not interested in trading the #2 or Nash for either Vancouver goalie. Thank you for your inquiry and we wish you the best of luck in your search.

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06-11-2012, 09:29 PM
  #173
Strangelove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
We are not interested in trading the #2 or Nash for either Vancouver goalie. Thank you for your inquiry and we wish you the best of luck in your search.
I think your GM might be interested.

Would you be happy or sad if a trade like this was announced:

To Columbus: Schneider, Booth, Raymond

To Vancouver: Nash

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06-11-2012, 09:49 PM
  #174
CBJWennberg41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
I think your GM might be interested.

Would you be happy or sad if a trade like this was announced:

To Columbus: Schneider, Booth, Raymond

To Vancouver: Nash
Not sad because Howson would be fired a minute afterwards. Thats awful.

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Old
06-11-2012, 09:51 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
I think your GM might be interested.

Would you be happy or sad if a trade like this was announced:

To Columbus: Schneider, Booth, Raymond

To Vancouver: Nash
I would be pissed. Booth and especially Raymond don't interest me to much. I would prefer a upgrade on Raymond. What's the deal with Kassian? Gillis traded Hodgson for him and I'm sure Gillis likes him a lot but does AV?
Would you do

Schneider,Booth,Kassian for Nash? I'm not even sure if the Blue Jackets fans would be thrilled with this. I can see Howson asking for a 1st as well.

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