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Habs/Leafs draft day trade

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Old
06-05-2012, 11:10 AM
  #26
mcphllp
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no way

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Old
06-05-2012, 11:53 AM
  #27
Drydenwasthebest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svat View Post
I'll just dig up an old post where I explain why Schenn is not a good d-man at this point.

-scratch that, I actually have to take a few minutes to explain why.

Luke Schenn this past season faced the 5th easiest competition out of the leafs defensemen, had negative possession numbers (don't know the scoring chance differential, but it was most likely as bad as his possession numbers, and even if it were positive, it would be against easy competition), took twice as many penalties as he drew and had neutral zone starts.

last season wasn't as bad as he faced the 3rd-4th hard competition, but he still put up negative possession numbers. it wasn't as bad a season as this most recent one, but it wasn't good, and it wasn't 3.6 million dollar cap hit good (especially with the term).

plus, his surface stats aren't very impressive either.

I am a Habs fan. You are wrong.

Luke Schenn is actually quite a good defensive defenceman. He is also the kind of defenceman our team needs. He had 270 hits, 115 blocked shots, he DID have a -30 in giveawaty vs takeaway differential, but he is not supposed to be an offensive force. He was only a -6 on a team with poor goaltending and not the best defence. I think he is a very good player who needs to be with the right partner. I think that he would be amazing with Markov. I just can not imagine how people trash this guy when he is a physical presence the likes of which Montreal can only hope to get on their blue line.

Now, having said that, the only way the Habs do the trade is hinged upon who goes in the #1 and #2 spots. If Grigorenko and Galchenyuk are both available at the #3 spot, then the Habs could make that deal and still feel comfortable that they will get the center they need. If either one is gone, then we have to think about whether we want Galchenyuk/Grogorenko or Forsberg more. I would be sorely tempted to make the deal as lolng as we get one of Grigorenko, Galchenyuk or Forsberg. I prefer Galchenyuk, but damn, to get Schenn and one of the others would be amazing.

Anyone calling Schenn's contract an "albatross" should go and watch Schenn play. He has had some rough spots, but he is not an albatross and brings an element to the Habs we have wanted since Komisarek got destroyed by Lucic.

I guess, as a Habs fan, I have convinced myself this is a deal worth doing.

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Old
06-05-2012, 12:14 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't know if a few non-fans here necessarily makes Schenn all that underrated. I imagine his real value in the league is still quite high. I would be happy to have him (and his contract) on the Habs. But I would take exactly the same stance as you if I was a Leafs fan. It's also why I wouldn't give up anything substantial to move from #3 to #1 in the many EDM-MTL pick swap scenarios proposed. The separation at the top end of this draft just isn't that high. (Or at least, I don't perceive it to be). If I was the Leafs picking #5, there is no way I include Schenn in any trade-up scenario. Not even to #1, let alone to #3.
I couldn't agree more.

The Leafs have absolutely no reason whatsoever to trade Luke Schenn at this point in his NHL career.

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Old
06-05-2012, 12:18 PM
  #29
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As an unbiased outsider, I'll provide my personal unbiased opinion.

Montreal says YES, Toronto says NO.

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Old
06-05-2012, 12:21 PM
  #30
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Can't believe a Habs/Leafs trade proposal (and a major one) has been so civil. There is hope for peace in the Middle East!

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Old
06-05-2012, 12:22 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svat View Post
1. not a habs fan
2. as of right now, its an albatross contract. i never said he has no chance to improve, but the contract was handed out prematurely.
3. no team should take the risk of him improving, it's not smart asset management.
$3.6M? Must be one of those pygmy albatrosses.

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Old
06-05-2012, 12:34 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svat View Post
1. not a habs fan
2. as of right now, its an albatross contract. i never said he has no chance to improve, but the contract was handed out prematurely.
3. no team should take the risk of him improving, it's not smart asset management.
Really?

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=985241

Skim through this thread, a lot of rival teams even claimed the contract to be a steal, people refuse to look past one season for what ever reason.

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Old
06-05-2012, 12:35 PM
  #33
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$3.6 million with the cap where it's at is nowhere close to overpayment.

People have to realize that the cap has gone up tens of millions of dollars since its inception. Chris Neil's making a very friendly $2 million per year, and was considered overpaid at the time his contract was signed. A $7 million dollar contract would essentially cripple a team in 05/06, but now a team can easily have multiple players making that kind of money.

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Old
06-05-2012, 12:37 PM
  #34
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I am the OP and this is how I feel the teams are thinking going into the draft.

1-EDM-Yakupov/Murray---depends if they go with the best player or biggest need.

2-CLB-Yakupov/Murray/Galchenyuk/Forsberg---they have had bad luck with Russians in the past and may pass on Yakupov and Grigorenko. if they do not want defense Murray does not get picked.

3-MON-Yakupov/Galchenyuk/Grigorenko/Forsberg---if Yakupov is available he gets picked. if not they go with one of the three forwards.

4-NYI-Murray/Dumba/Galchenyuk/Grigorenko/Forsberg---I feel as if the Islanders want to draft a D. If Murray is available he gets picked here if not maybe Dumba. If not one of the three forwards left.

5-TOR-Galchenyuk/Grigorenko/Forsberg---they take the left overs and pick which ever one of these three are left.



With the original trade offer the Leafs would get their top choice of which prospect to draft. Montreal upgrades their D and take who ever if left available.

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Old
06-05-2012, 01:46 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsrule View Post
I am the OP and this is how I feel the teams are thinking going into the draft.

1-EDM-Yakupov/Murray---depends if they go with the best player or biggest need.

2-CLB-Yakupov/Murray/Galchenyuk/Forsberg---they have had bad luck with Russians in the past and may pass on Yakupov and Grigorenko. if they do not want defense Murray does not get picked.
Can folks please stop spreading this one? It's not Russians per se. We'll likely pass on Grigorenko, but Yakupov would be taken without blinking.

Not that that scenario is likely to happen, but still.

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Old
06-05-2012, 01:49 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I am a Habs fan. You are wrong.

Luke Schenn is actually quite a good defensive defenceman. He is also the kind of defenceman our team needs. He had 270 hits, 115 blocked shots, he DID have a -30 in giveawaty vs takeaway differential, but he is not supposed to be an offensive force. He was only a -6 on a team with poor goaltending and not the best defence. I think he is a very good player who needs to be with the right partner. I think that he would be amazing with Markov. I just can not imagine how people trash this guy when he is a physical presence the likes of which Montreal can only hope to get on their blue line.
You're right that Schenn isn't supposed to be an offensive force...that's what makes his consistently high giveaway numbers VERY alarming. It's understandable when a PMD who has teh puck on his stick a lot has lots of turnovers but when a guy who is just supposed to be a stay at home guy does it means he's awful with the puck.

I have no interest in Schenn or his salary. Wouldn't even trade Gomez for him.

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Old
06-05-2012, 01:57 PM
  #37
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Schenn and 5 ov is totally overpayment fir the 3 ov maybe the 5 ov and a 2nd round pick is plenty to move 2spots

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Old
06-05-2012, 02:27 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciccio1980 View Post
Schenn and 5 ov is totally overpayment fir the 3 ov maybe the 5 ov and a 2nd round pick is plenty to move 2spots

I suppose that depends on what players are available at #3 and how bad The Leafs might want one of those players....

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Old
06-05-2012, 06:23 PM
  #39
svat
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well, color me shocked that the following arguments popped up:

1. watch the games
2. can't use stats
3. our fans/hfboards opinion of schenn is proof he is good.

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Old
06-05-2012, 06:38 PM
  #40
svat
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Originally Posted by roboninja View Post
$3.6M? Must be one of those pygmy albatrosses.
considering you could get similar production out of a guy making less than 1.5 million or a replacement level player, yes, it is an albatross.

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Old
06-05-2012, 06:55 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciccio1980 View Post
Schenn and 5 ov is totally overpayment fir the 3 ov maybe the 5 ov and a 2nd round pick is plenty to move 2spots
I totally agree but thats what it would take for you guys to have a chance to move up to the 3rd overall .If the Habs have their eye on Galy which seems to be the case than it would take Schenn to get our eyes off him.
Instead of either team taking any chances and if Galy is the guy the Leafs really want why not wait till the 5th overall pick is up.If the Habs have picked Gal and Grigs is around come the Leafs pick than we trade Gal for the Leafs pick and Schenn and not a minute earlier.

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Old
06-05-2012, 07:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
I totally agree but thats what it would take for you guys to have a chance to move up to the 3rd overall .If the Habs have their eye on Galy which seems to be the case than it would take Schenn to get our eyes off him.
Instead of either team taking any chances and if Galy is the guy the Leafs really want why not wait till the 5th overall pick is up.If the Habs have picked Gal and Grigs is around come the Leafs pick than we trade Gal for the Leafs pick and Schenn and not a minute earlier.
There is a reason why this doesnt happen. How would you feel that if a team drafted you, you happily put on your jersey...10 minutes later, that team's GM walks up to you and says, "Hey kid, we would like your jersey back, we just traded you to another team"

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Old
06-05-2012, 07:04 PM
  #43
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No thanks. Draft BPA at 5.

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Old
06-05-2012, 07:11 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
You're right that Schenn isn't supposed to be an offensive force...that's what makes his consistently high giveaway numbers VERY alarming. It's understandable when a PMD who has teh puck on his stick a lot has lots of turnovers but when a guy who is just supposed to be a stay at home guy does it means he's awful with the puck.

I have no interest in Schenn or his salary. Wouldn't even trade Gomez for him.



Then...ur not a Habs fan.

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Old
06-05-2012, 07:34 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsrule View Post
To Habs:
5th overall
Luke Schenn

To Leafs:
3rd overall
Yannick Weber


Reason why the Habs do it:
Schenn is in need of a new home. He could be a very good tough, physical defenceman but things have just not worked out in Toronto for him. He was a healthy scratch a couple of times last year. Plus the way I see the draft going is Yakupov and Murray #1 and #2. That leaves Grigorenko, Forsberg and Galchenyuk left. The Islanders pick #4 and I could see them even drafting Dumba thus leaving another one of those forwards available.

Reason why the Leafs do it:
Weber needs a new home. He is an offensive defenceman who has just not found a home on the back end in Montreal. The Leafs would save about three million in cap space. Plus the Leafs would move up to the #3 spot in the draft thus having their top choice of the three forwards available.

?
The Habs and Leafs have both been trying for several seasons, to acquire an elite center.Why is Montreal trading down and giving Toronto first choice betwen Galchenyuk and Grigs?

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Old
06-05-2012, 08:19 PM
  #46
Drydenwasthebest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svat View Post
well, color me shocked that the following arguments popped up:

1. watch the games
2. can't use stats
3. our fans/hfboards opinion of schenn is proof he is good.
1--If you watched them you wouldn't be shocked, you would be a bit more knowledgeable.
2--I DID use stats.
3--Knowledgeable fans who have watched and played the game for almost 40 years do have a little more than simple opinion...especially when they watch the players AND use stats to support their augment. Try doing it sometime, it will help you a lot.

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Old
06-05-2012, 08:27 PM
  #47
Drydenwasthebest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
You're right that Schenn isn't supposed to be an offensive force...that's what makes his consistently high giveaway numbers VERY alarming. It's understandable when a PMD who has teh puck on his stick a lot has lots of turnovers but when a guy who is just supposed to be a stay at home guy does it means he's awful with the puck.

I have no interest in Schenn or his salary. Wouldn't even trade Gomez for him.
The fact that you can say something as truly stupid as "wouldn't even trade Gomez for him" should get you banned from intelligent conversations. Schenn's salary is pretty much HALF Gomez', but you would rather keep Gomez. Schenn is a serviceable, at worst, defenceman, and a potential All Star, at best. Actually, never mind, the inability to see the sheer stupidity of not wanting to trade Gomez for Schenn precludes further intelligent posting.

"Wouldn't trade Gomez" for Schenn. Dumbest thing I have ever seen a Habs fan write. Ever. Just...wow...

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Old
06-05-2012, 08:48 PM
  #48
svat
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
1--If you watched them you wouldn't be shocked, you would be a bit more knowledgeable.
2--I DID use stats.
3--Knowledgeable fans who have watched and played the game for almost 40 years do have a little more than simple opinion...especially when they watch the players AND use stats to support their augment. Try doing it sometime, it will help you a lot.
your stats that you used are pretty damning actually.

Quote:
He had 270 hits, 115 blocked shots, he DID have a -30 in giveawaty vs takeaway differential, but he is not supposed to be an offensive force. He was only a -6 on a team with poor goaltending and not the best defence.
hits: hits are prone to scorer bias, and ultimately don't really tell you much about how good a player is.

blocked shots: lots of blocked shots means you were in your own end a lot, having the puck constantly being put on your net. hardly good defense.

TK/GA differential: with context this stat helps. if he had played hard competition, his poor differential would make sense. but he had a bad differential while playing middling competition.

plus/minus: not really a good stat unless looking at career. and plus, being a moderate minus with admittedly bad goaltending is understandable if you played against the hardest competition, but again, he didn't. for a defensive defenseman, he sure didn't do a lot of defending.

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Old
06-05-2012, 10:11 PM
  #49
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We are getting galchenyuk so i don't think the habs will trade down unless it's a ridiculous offer and while Schenn is good we don't need him right now.

Frankly the leafs should just stay put and draft Grigorenko and it would probably be the steal of the draft. Forsberg Teravainen Murray might also be available.

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Old
06-06-2012, 02:23 AM
  #50
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could you imagine habs D in 3-4 years

Tinordi - Subban
Beaulieu - Schenn
Emelin - Ellis
Gorges

If Galchenyul, Grigorenko and Forsberg are still vailable at 3 I would do it, as 1 of the 3 would still be available at 5

probably throw in a 2013 second rounder if need be

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