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I am pretty sure I can name 30 D that I would take before J-Bo, therefore he would be a #2D
I agree with the posts that J-Bo is to valuable to the Flames to leave (lack of quality depth on D being the biggest reason why) but I did think it would be fun to name 30 D ahead of him (in no particular order)
How can you possibly be a below average top pairing defenseman.
Is this question real? It's the same reason why Crawford is a below average #1 goalie in Chicago, for example. He's miscast in the role, and has quite frankly always been miscast in the role of top pairing defenseman.
By the way, anyone saying Jaybo is awful, or stinks, is completely disingenuous. Not the case at all. But anyone calling him a legitimate shutdown top pairing guy, just because he plays a lot of minutes, is just as disingenuous. If Jaybo was making $4 million/year, and playing around 20 minutes/night or less on a team with a legitimate top pair, then he'd be regarded as one of the better second pairing defenseman in the NHL. I really believe that.
But he's always been miscast as a #1 defenseman for some reason, and he simply lacks all of the qualities that an elite #1 defenseman possesses...he's not a leader, he's not intimidating or physical, he's not offensively gifted, he's not tough to play against. An elite #1 defenseman is some combination of those things wrapped up into one package. Some are like Doughty and Lidstrom, some are like Chara and Pronger, some are like Suter and Weber, etc. But they all impact the game heavily in whatever makeup they bring to the lineup every night. Bouwmeester's only significant impact is that he's out there a lot. He's otherwise unspectacular in virtually every area other than his skating.
I agree with the posts that J-Bo is to valuable to the Flames to leave (lack of quality depth on D being the biggest reason why) but I did think it would be fun to name 30 D ahead of him (in no particular order)
I wouldn't even put half these guys on the list. Its easy to put a solid 2nd pairing guy on here and say he is better. Example. Shattenkirk, play him against top line guys 26+ minutes a night and see how amazing he is.
I agree with the posts that J-Bo is to valuable to the Flames to leave (lack of quality depth on D being the biggest reason why) but I did think it would be fun to name 30 D ahead of him (in no particular order)
that list just proves there isnt anywhere near 30 d-men better the j-bo. anyone who thinks so just further proves my point. theres a massive chunk of that list that dosent belong there.
typical hf logic too, "potential" makes a player automatically better. shattenkirk, bogosian?? really? bieksa? that list is brutal
that list just proves there isnt anywhere near 30 d-men better the j-bo. anyone who thinks so just further proves my point. theres a massive chunk of that list that dosent belong there.
typical hf logic too, "potential" makes a player automatically better. shattenkirk, bogosian?? really? bieksa? that list is brutal
The list is more of a bang for your buck, in that case yes you could name 30 D man. But not in what they actually bring.
I agree with the posts that J-Bo is to valuable to the Flames to leave (lack of quality depth on D being the biggest reason why) but I did think it would be fun to name 30 D ahead of him (in no particular order)
I disagree on Hamhuis, Bogosian and Shattenkirk, but your point is valid. There are others I'd put up there too. I'd put Byfuglien, Phaneuf, Enstrom and possibly Kulikov on the list.
Is this question real? It's the same reason why Crawford is a below average #1 goalie in Chicago, for example. He's miscast in the role, and has quite frankly always been miscast in the role of top pairing defenseman.
By the way, anyone saying Jaybo is awful, or stinks, is completely disingenuous. Not the case at all. But anyone calling him a legitimate shutdown top pairing guy, just because he plays a lot of minutes, is just as disingenuous. If Jaybo was making $4 million/year, and playing around 20 minutes/night or less on a team with a legitimate top pair, then he'd be regarded as one of the better second pairing defenseman in the NHL. I really believe that.
But he's always been miscast as a #1 defenseman for some reason, and he simply lacks all of the qualities that an elite #1 defenseman possesses...he's not a leader, he's not intimidating or physical, he's not offensively gifted, he's not tough to play against. An elite #1 defenseman is some combination of those things wrapped up into one package. Some are like Doughty and Lidstrom, some are like Chara and Pronger, some are like Suter and Weber, etc. But they all impact the game heavily in whatever makeup they bring to the lineup every night. Bouwmeester's only significant impact is that he's out there a lot. He's otherwise unspectacular in virtually every area other than his skating.
I could say the same thing about a player like Kimmo Timonen, yet I have no doubt in my mind that he is, or at least was at some point, a #1 defenseman for Philly.
I disagree on Hamhuis, Bogosian and Shattenkirk, but your point is valid. There are others I'd put up there too. I'd put Byfuglien, Phaneuf, Enstrom and possibly Kulikov on the list.
Byfuglien?
Phaneuf was so good that the Flames traded him INSTEAD of Bouwmeester.
that list just proves there isnt anywhere near 30 d-men better the j-bo. anyone who thinks so just further proves my point. theres a massive chunk of that list that dosent belong there.
typical hf logic too, "potential" makes a player automatically better. shattenkirk, bogosian?? really? bieksa? that list is brutal
Bieksa is better than JBo IMO. I see a lot of both guys too. Bieksa is like Giordano just not quite as consistent, he does everything well.
Phaneuf was so good that the Flames traded him INSTEAD of Bouwmeester.
I'm willing to bet that the Flames would love to have that trade back. Phaneuf is better than JBo in every statistical category. He plays shutdown minutes on a bad team, with bad goaltending and has better +/- numbers than JBo who plays on a better team with better goaltending.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Phaneuf is light years better in the physical and offensive areas. So yes, Phaneuf.
Byfuglien has been a top 10 finisher in Norris voting since his move from Chicago. It's not just me who thinks he's better.
The list was fun to do and really I did it in 10 minutes at work with not a ton of research into it but at the end of the day the point made from this list was that J-Bo would be a top 30 Dman in the NHL
Or at least that appears to be the point after reading other people's posts
I could say the same thing about a player like Kimmo Timonen, yet I have no doubt in my mind that he is, or at least was at some point, a #1 defenseman for Philly.
But he's not, nor has Timonen ever been the #1 guy on a winning team. Timonen's best years as a Flyer are the ones that had Pronger there to handle the job as #1 defenseman...that's not a coincidence. I think Timonen's a significantly better defensive player than Bouwmeester anyway, but neither guy is a legitimate #1 on a winning team.
Take a look at who's won cups in recent years, and who they had to fill that #1 role: Doughty (assuming they pull it out), Chara, Keith, Lidstrom, Gonchar. Those guys aren't miscast in their role, and it allows other guys to slot into realistic D roles on their team.
I'm willing to bet that the Flames would love to have that trade back. Phaneuf is better than JBo in every statistical category. He plays shutdown minutes on a bad team, with bad goaltending and has better +/- numbers than JBo who plays on a better team with better goaltending.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Phaneuf is light years better in the physical and offensive areas. So yes, Phaneuf.
Byfuglien has been a top 10 finisher in Norris voting since his move from Chicago. It's not just me who thinks he's better.
Neither Phaneuf or Byfuglien can actually play defence is the problem. Phaneuf's team was second last in the league for goals allowed and Byfuglien's wasn't too far behind. Goaltending might not have been stelar, but there are many examples of good defencemen making up for bad goaltending (see Chicago, Detroit, etc.).
They put up more points than JBo in totally irresponsible defensive systems, yes...
Basically, the same could be said for many players on that list. Just because you put up 10 more points than JBo does not make you a better defenceman by any means. Based on that list, I'd say JBo is in the 10-20 range. We'll see how he does with a better coach.
I'm willing to bet that the Flames would love to have that trade back. Phaneuf is better than JBo in every statistical category. He plays shutdown minutes on a bad team, with bad goaltending and has better +/- numbers than JBo who plays on a better team with better goaltending.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Phaneuf is light years better in the physical and offensive areas. So yes, Phaneuf.
Byfuglien has been a top 10 finisher in Norris voting since his move from Chicago. It's not just me who thinks he's better.
Norris voting for defeseman is based almost purely off offensive numbers.
But he's not, nor has Timonen ever been the #1 guy on a winning team. Timonen's best years as a Flyer are the ones that had Pronger there to handle the job as #1 defenseman...that's not a coincidence. I think Timonen's a significantly better defensive player than Bouwmeester anyway, but neither guy is a legitimate #1 on a winning team.
Take a look at who's won cups in recent years, and who they had to fill that #1 role: Doughty (assuming they pull it out), Chara, Keith, Lidstrom, Gonchar. Those guys aren't miscast in their role, and it allows other guys to slot into realistic D roles on their team.
As a Flyer fan, I can tell you that Timonen's best years weren't the ones with Pronger. And yes, he was, a #1 defenseman.
As for Jbo, if he was making couple mil less or was putting up 45 points he'd have a lot better reputation than people give him.
Haha. I love posts like this - "if he made a third less than he does or if his offensive production was 50% higher people wouldn't be complaining".. no they wouldn't, because he'd be playing up to his contract then!
Is this question real? It's the same reason why Crawford is a below average #1 goalie in Chicago, for example. He's miscast in the role, and has quite frankly always been miscast in the role of top pairing defenseman.
Then that proves precisely my point. You can't be a below average 1# defenseman, you are either a 1# or below. Just because he is miscast doesn't make him a starting goaltender in the NHL. It makes him a back-up playing a starters role.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Sanguine
But he's not, nor has Timonen ever been the #1 guy on a winning team. Timonen's best years as a Flyer are the ones that had Pronger there to handle the job as #1 defenseman...that's not a coincidence. I think Timonen's a significantly better defensive player than Bouwmeester anyway, but neither guy is a legitimate #1 on a winning team.
Take a look at who's won cups in recent years, and who they had to fill that #1 role: Doughty (assuming they pull it out), Chara, Keith, Lidstrom, Gonchar. Those guys aren't miscast in their role, and it allows other guys to slot into realistic D roles on their team.
You are talking out of your ass. Timonen is clearly our best defenseman and has been during his entire tenure with the flyers, outside of the one good year of Pronger
Neither Phaneuf or Byfuglien can actually play defence is the problem. Phaneuf's team was second last in the league for goals allowed and Byfuglien's wasn't too far behind. Goaltending might not have been stelar, but there are many examples of good defencemen making up for bad goaltending (see Chicago, Detroit, etc.).
They put up more points than JBo in totally irresponsible defensive systems, yes...
Basically, the same could be said for many players on that list. Just because you put up 10 more points than JBo does not make you a better defenceman by any means. Based on that list, I'd say JBo is in the 10-20 range. We'll see how he does with a better coach.
Way too many intangibles that the list doesn't state. Depends what a team is looking for, what style, contract etc etc.
And the Phaneuf vs Jbo debate is really getting old. Dion is superior in some ways, Jbo better in others. Lets get over it already. I like Dion, but if I want a guy in front of my net covered, or my D-man to make the extra effort in any zone...it won't be him. I also like Jbo but if I want a guy that will use his size and offensive potential and live up to the hype of a big contract....I won't go to him.
But he's not, nor has Timonen ever been the #1 guy on a winning team. Timonen's best years as a Flyer are the ones that had Pronger there to handle the job as #1 defenseman...that's not a coincidence. I think Timonen's a significantly better defensive player than Bouwmeester anyway, but neither guy is a legitimate #1 on a winning team.
Take a look at who's won cups in recent years, and who they had to fill that #1 role: Doughty (assuming they pull it out), Chara, Keith, Lidstrom, Gonchar. Those guys aren't miscast in their role, and it allows other guys to slot into realistic D roles on their team.
Yea this is totally wrong.... You need to watch Timonen to understand though.
