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The big lie.....

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Old
06-04-2012, 11:32 AM
  #1
hawksfan50
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The big lie.....

There has been so much blogging on the concept that the Blackhawks cannot win the Stanley Cup by inserting ROOKIES into the lineup -that they need reliable experienced vets who can play minutes and not only not make costly mistakes or get overwhelmed (LEDDY!!!!) and that Q was upset at Stan for having to insert rookies before they were "ready" ---these bloggers (J.J on hockeybuzz.com and tracey Meyers&Chris Boden at CSN.com in their articl;e on Jimmy Hayes and if he should or should not be inserted full-time into Q's lineup) seem to imply that the risk of rookies not being fully ready is some sort of red flag taken directly from the coaching manual 101 course and that too much rookie insertion is a recipe for not winning Cups..

HOWEVER --we see that the real issue is COMPETENCY and not necessarily rookie status...there should however be a difference for rookies aged 22 or older and mere 18,19,20 year olds..Note that the on the verge of winig the cup L.A. kings are relying quite a lot on 3 rookies---forwards JORDAN NOLAN,DWIGHT KING and D-man SLAVA VOYNOV-all age 22 this season...The Hawks used 3 rookies as regulars (Leddy,Shaw,Kruger) during the playoffs---Hayes (2g)and Olsen (1g) and Saad (2g) saw only limited action in the playoffs ...the age breakdown is Leddy (21), Shaw (20)
Kruger (22),Hayes (22),Olsen (21),and SAAD (19)....IF we just apply the don't use before age 22 as the standard for "should be ready" --then no wonder Q could not trust most of these kids to play regular minutes...IT is not so much their NHL inexperience or their "rookieness" that is the issue but rather that only Kruger and Hayes of this bunch were even 22 years old....SHAW is perhaps the exception--remember he missed 3 playoff games due to suspension and I do not think if he could have played those games that Q would not have used him in a regular spot ...

BUT there are other issues besides age ---the issue of competency fit to a "role" ---
on L.A. the use of Jordan and King as 4th liners in a systemwhere L.A. rolls 4 lines to keep all their forwards fresh --PLUS their BIG physical size and toughness makes for an effective role use for then as 4th liners who soften up opponents with their hitting and forecheck work ...OF the Hawks rookie forwards -HAYES is even bigger in size --but 6'6 221 spreads out less effectively as "imposing" as do the "BIG" kings rookies where King packs 234 lbs on a 6'3 frame and Nolan 227lbs on a 6'3 frame
--the problem is while we know exactly what role KIng and Nolan play for L.A. and how competent they are in fiting that role -we do not know what role Hayes is best fit for? 4th line physical grinder/forechecker? Then he better add more weight to his frame and get more consistent hitting into his game? That is not it? Well then he has too good a set of hands to be "just a 4th liner" --so he is at least a top 9? Atleast a top six? Then if he adds weight he could get too slow and Q again would have issues using him? So what is he? I do not know...BUT competency for role is the issue with him..


THEN OVERALL --among the forwards who are rookies only HAYES is "BIG" --whereas Kruger,Shaw do not have size --though Shaw's abrasive style makes him play bigger than he is -still smaller guys can get pushed around/banged around themselves so it is tricky to slot them into trustworthy roles against bigger physical clubs...

LEDDY is a smallish offensive d-man;VOYNOV is not big either -but CAN LEDDY be as good defensively with just 1 more year under his belt? THAT remains to be seen...SO with Leddy is it really just having another year to "learn" oR is he really never going to be defensively competent enough? THAT is the question.

Anyway my point is not to dismiss using rookies as an impediment to Cup winning per se..but instead to ask -ARE THEY READY? By that I mean COMPETENT to play the roles assigned to them such that they do not hurt the team with "rookie mistakes" or getting overwhelmed /overpowered by NHL vets and even more-DO they make any big DIFFERENCE in performimg the roles given them?
Obviously it is a YES to these questions for KING,NOLAN and VOYNOV for the L.A. Kings-but with the Hawks rookies --only questions about competency,fit to roles,and overall readiness..

THE Hawks do have other 22 year olds in the system who given our age standard for SHOULD BE READY by then--are NOT in our lineup ...THE question then is why not?

THAT we did not have a 22 year old d-man as capable as VOYNOV "ready" for our lineup is an indictment of our scouting dept. and /or our long-range planning with our prospect pipeline..


THAT we must rely on "geezer" NHL vets as MAYERS for the 4h line--or AGAIN a vet like Carcillo and the issue of what line/what role best fits -and why we do not have 2 22 year old BIG tough PHYSICAL 4th liners like NOLAN and KING to "soften up" opposing teams is ANOTHER indictment against our scouting/planning for our system of prospects and their ETA as "ready" and not only that but making a difference IN THEIR ROLES..


So it is NEVER just rookiness that impeds a Stanly Cup --you could esily say that geezerness and how "effective" for the role is a MAYERS (very very average to hardly making any effective difference) or how WRONG (for fit) was BRUNETTE and his geezerness for his role on the team last year. MAYBE rookies IF "ready" would have been a lot better than them for their roles?

EVERYTHING revolves around COMPETENCY and EFFECTIVENESS in the asigned role--not about age or experience -though in general we can cut some slack for the below 22's ... HOWEVER we must blame SOMEBODY in our org for NOT HAVING DEVELOPED as "ready" at least 3 22 year olds that the coach can trust to make some USEFUL difference in helping the overall TEAM play better as a working group..

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06-04-2012, 11:35 AM
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Skimmed this thread. Don't know the details (tl;dr).

I will say that I'd take any of Voynov, King, or Nolan in the Hawks. The Hawks can win with impactful contributions from rookies and young players. There should be a mix of impactful veterans and young kids that give you a jump. Let's hope we move toward it this summer.

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06-04-2012, 11:36 AM
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<-- Needs cliff notes.

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06-04-2012, 11:45 AM
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I believe he's basically saying that you can't blame the fact that we have too many rookies in the lineup as the issue, but the fact that they are not ready. He thinks our scouts are not getting good enough guys (like Voynov, as he said multiple times) and that they are being called up before they are ready.

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06-04-2012, 11:49 AM
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The post isn't a bad one. He makes good points.

The one thing i'd say is that whether the rookie is 18 or 23 there is still going be a steep learning curve that comes as a result of inexperience at the NHL level...and you don't want too many players with no experience at one time (particularly in important roles).

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06-04-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
(J.J on hockeybuzz.com and tracey Meyers&Chris Boden at CSN.com
that was the part I started laughing and I still laugh now... using them as reference is just - wow.

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06-04-2012, 02:49 PM
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Doesn't matter. Bet you LA gets nowhere near the finals with Quenneville behind the bench.

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06-04-2012, 02:53 PM
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Bubba88
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LA really benefited from the coaching change

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06-04-2012, 02:59 PM
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Chris Hansen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
LA really benefited from the coaching change
And the Carter trade. While he isn't his old 46-goal self, he makes their forward lineup much, much better.

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06-04-2012, 03:06 PM
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that's true, but I still take the coaching change over the Trade.

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06-04-2012, 03:32 PM
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I think the OP is putting too much importance in 4th liners. Of all the holes in the hawks this year, our 4th line was almost never one of them.

Nor was our mixture of vets and rookies. Strictly speaking in a proportional sense, I loved the balance of young and old on the hawks. The problem was that Bruno, Montador, and SOD played well below their expectations this year. Bruno hurt our top 6 almost every game he played in. SOD and yes, even the beloved Montador, hurt us defensively as well. They did not bring experience and grit as they were brought in to do so. Instead they brought slow skating and poor decision making.

Our 4th line of

Carcillo-Mayers-Jayes

Should be dynamite next year.

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06-04-2012, 05:51 PM
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Crazy_Ike
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I would rather see Carcillo in the top six. He's a much more effective player than any other non-Sharp LW we have, including everything, as long as he doesn't do anything too stupid.

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06-04-2012, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
I would rather see Carcillo in the top six. He's a much more effective player than any other non-Sharp LW we have, including everything, as long as he doesn't do anything too stupid.
Can't disagree. He did some good things last season playing there, but was often snake-bitten when it comes to scoring. When he went down to injury, it definitely hurt as he was building some solid chemistry on this team playing on the top 2 lines at times. After that injury, many here seemed to think that he had played his last game as a Hawk. Looks like they were wrong.

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06-04-2012, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Can't disagree. He did some good things last season playing there, but was often snake-bitten when it comes to scoring. When he went down to injury, it definitely hurt as he was building some solid chemistry on this team playing on the top 2 lines at times. After that injury, many here seemed to think that he had played his last game as a Hawk. Looks like they were wrong.
Sharp - Toews - Berg
Carcillo - Kane - Hossa

???

That second line definitely had some chemistry this past year, but I felt like Stalberg was at his best playing with Toews and Kane.

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06-05-2012, 05:12 AM
  #15
Bubba88
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I don't think Carcillo will play more than 20 games in the Top6 next year...

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06-05-2012, 10:16 AM
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Mayers will be 39 this season--what greatness did he have as a 4th liner? Was our Pk so great with him? Did he win faceoffs? Does he pound opponent D-men into soft submission? DEAR STANBO--I don't get it...STANBO is still enthralled about how his CORE up front is so talented they can carry the day--but Q always plays his top 2 lones the most,line 3 next and only a few minutes for line 4 as if they are almost incapable of more or of any significant difference...Obviously L.a. in rolling 4 lines in rotation schemes differently--the 4th liners have a very important role of size and bumping opponents into tiredness where the oppsing d-men get softened up such that the top guns on the l.a. attack lines can get separation and score..
With Q--the 4th line is merely an afterthought hence old over the hill geezers like Mayers playing limited minutes and still producing negatibe numbers in the +/-...

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06-05-2012, 02:00 PM
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Bubba88
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every team plays the Top6 most, Line 3 next and line 4 will get less ice time... that's what every team does.

Mayers was far from a problem on our team

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06-05-2012, 02:18 PM
  #18
Ace Rothstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
Mayers will be 39 this season--what greatness did he have as a 4th liner? Was our Pk so great with him? Did he win faceoffs? Does he pound opponent D-men into soft submission? DEAR STANBO--I don't get it...STANBO is still enthralled about how his CORE up front is so talented they can carry the day--but Q always plays his top 2 lones the most,line 3 next and only a few minutes for line 4 as if they are almost incapable of more or of any significant difference...Obviously L.a. in rolling 4 lines in rotation schemes differently--the 4th liners have a very important role of size and bumping opponents into tiredness where the oppsing d-men get softened up such that the top guns on the l.a. attack lines can get separation and score..
With Q--the 4th line is merely an afterthought hence old over the hill geezers like Mayers playing limited minutes and still producing negatibe numbers in the +/-...
Mayers actually did win faceoffs. He was 56.1% on the season.

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06-05-2012, 05:59 PM
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Mayers is a solid fourth liner who is very good at the dot and sticks up for his teammates.

Nice player to have. Complaining about him (to be honest, complaining about a fourth liner in general) is silly.

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06-05-2012, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Mayers is a solid fourth liner who is very good at the dot and sticks up for his teammates.

Nice player to have. Complaining about him (to be honest, complaining about a fourth liner in general) is silly.

However, Stan must decide quickly if this team is rebuilding or not. If they are in rebuild mode - and it certainly seems so to me, though I don't think Stan and company would ever admit that outright - ... as much as I like Mayers, it may be in the teams best interest to put a kid in his spot let him grow with the team and try and trade Jamal. If not now, before next seasons trade deadline to a contender looking for some insurance down the stretch. Same goes for Hossa and perhaps Sharp.

Playing it both ways (without a comittment to rebuild properly) as Stan seems to be hedging towards, is not working so far.

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06-05-2012, 06:42 PM
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not sure how a team with kane, toews, sharp, hossa, keith, and seabrook on the roster is in rebuild mode...

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06-05-2012, 06:47 PM
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However, Stan must decide quickly if this team is rebuilding or not. If they are in rebuild mode - and it certainly seems so to me, though I don't think Stan and company would ever admit that outright - ... as much as I like Mayers, it may be in the teams best interest to put a kid in his spot let him grow with the team and try and trade Jamal. If not now, before next seasons trade deadline to a contender looking for some insurance down the stretch. Same goes for Hossa and perhaps Sharp.

Playing it both ways (without a comittment to rebuild properly) as Stan seems to be hedging towards, is not working so far.
The organization is not rebuilding. "Retooling" would be more accurate, given the necessary dismantling of the team following the Cup win. Many believed that the Hawks would not be true contenders again until the 12-13 season... I was and am one of those people. With plenty of money to spend in free agency and quite a few tradeable assets, the team is in position to be genuine contenders again... assuming, of course, Bowman and co. make the decisions and moves in order to make this happen. Which is definitely an "if," since we have no idea if he's capable of them or not. From the beginning, Bowman's been in the position of "weather the storm that is the aftermath of the '10 offseason." It's only now, with a fresh offseason coming on, Huet's contract off of Rocky's books (thus more money to spend), and many assets to offer in a trade, that Bowman can finally be a truly proactive GM... we'll see.

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06-05-2012, 06:51 PM
  #23
BobbyJet
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not sure how a team with kane, toews, sharp, hossa, keith, and seabrook on the roster is in rebuild mode...
Look around. The core is very good. One of the best but most contenders have a solid core as well ... with better work ethic, more physicality, better defense and better goaltending. Gulp.

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06-05-2012, 10:28 PM
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madgoat33
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Look around. The core is very good. One of the best but most contenders have a solid core as well ... with better work ethic, more physicality, better defense and better goaltending. Gulp.
thats not rebuild mode, that's fire your coaching staff mode...

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06-06-2012, 05:28 AM
  #25
Bubba88
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I agree with Madgoat & CH on this one

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