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Chicago/Pittsburgh (Two Choices)

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Old
06-06-2012, 01:52 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Cullksinikers View Post
Would like to see yours.
thats what she said

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06-06-2012, 02:01 PM
  #52
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Don't see a deal period between the two teams.

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06-06-2012, 02:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Nobody's overlooking anything. The fact is that Bolland's own team doesn't want him in a 2nd line center role in spite of their need for one, has converted wingers rather than use Bolland in that role, and the idea that it's all on account of Coach Q's bias is speculative at best
Both Sharp and Kane are C/W players so let's not act like they're trying to make a pure winger like Hossa into a center. And it's not Q's bias, it's his approach (some would say obsession) to having two balanced scoring lines and a shutdown 3rd line. Ask a knowledgeable Hawks fan.

The basic premise here is that there's more to the story than the other poster assumed. It's not a Staal vs. Bolland comparison so you can cool your jets. You're barking up the wrong tree here.

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06-06-2012, 02:52 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
You seem to be overlooking the context and backstory regarding Bolland.

If someone said "when a coach prefers not to convert Staal to a winger in the top 6, it's pretty telling what he thinks of him" how would you respond?

Probably with what you're missing relative to Chicago: context and backstory.

Sure the specifics are different but the overall point holds, that you need to better understand the circumstances before you make assumptions. See the point now?
Not changing a player's position to get him in the top six it totally different from converting a winger to center to keep someone out of the top 6.

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06-06-2012, 03:29 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
You seem to be overlooking the context and backstory regarding Bolland.

If someone said "when a coach prefers not to convert Staal to a winger in the top 6, it's pretty telling what he thinks of him" how would you respond?

Probably with what you're missing relative to Chicago: context and backstory.

Sure the specifics are different but the overall point holds, that you need to better understand the circumstances before you make assumptions. See the point now?
One of those things says: Staal is not as good at wing as he is at center, where, blimey, he isn't quite as good as Evgeni Malkin.

The other one says: Bolland isn't quite as good in the top6 as he is in the bottom6, I'd rather play Kruger over him.

Both of those kinda carry a value implication with them. a) center > wing and b) top6 > bottom6.

So really you can make it sound similar, but it still means that Q probably thinks Bolland isn't a top6 player. Especially taking into account Toewes' concussion. Staal always gets the Bylsma's whole confidence, when Crosby is down for the count.

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06-06-2012, 04:46 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Not changing a player's position to get him in the top six it totally different from converting a winger to center to keep someone out of the top 6.
I clearly wrote that the "specifics are different" and you basically reply with well, the specifics are different.

Again, you made an assumption that keeping Bolland as the 3C is "pretty telling" clearly implying he doesn't think he's good enough to be the 2C. Just as there is a reason for Staal not playing wing in the top 6, there is one in Chicago for keeping Bolland at 3C. It just seem you're familiar with one but not the other. Really not complicated.

Also, who is being converted to center? Sharp? He centered the second line when they won the Cup. Kane? Played most of his hockey career at a center.

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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
So really you can make it sound similar, but it still means that Q probably thinks Bolland isn't a top6 player. Especially taking into account Toewes' concussion. Staal always gets the Bylsma's whole confidence, when Crosby is down for the count.
Again, I'd ask a Hawks fan about Q and his rigidness in terms of how to construct lines. As a parallel the Canes feel that Brandon Sutter is good enough to be their 2C but feel he is too valuable in a shutdown role as the 3C so he really is never given the chance.

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06-06-2012, 05:01 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Again, I'd ask a Hawks fan about Q and his rigidness in terms of how to construct lines. As a parallel the Canes feel that Brandon Sutter is good enough to be their 2C but feel he is too valuable in a shutdown role as the 3C so he really is never given the chance.
And if eStaal was out with a concussion for a long time, that would stay that way even then?

I am not questioning playing Sutter or Bolland to their strength btw, only your assertion that this is in no way any different from Staal not being converted to wing here. These guys are thrid line centers for entirely different reasons.

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06-06-2012, 07:30 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Both Sharp and Kane are C/W players so let's not act like they're trying to make a pure winger like Hossa into a center.
Kane was drafted as a winger, and had never been a regular center in the NHL before this year:

"Obviously, my best [individual] years were at right wing. This year was a little bit different because I never really played center before. It was the first time I was playing center. I had to try it out. Even when I wasn’t doing that well at center in November or December, the team was still winning." - Pat Kane

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/hocke...rick-kane.html

Sharp, as we discussed earlier, broke out as a winger on the Hawks when he first came over from Philly, and he's always been more comfortable there.

You are making it seem as though these guys can switch from wing to center and back with equal aplomb, and that's simply not the case. They're square pegs being plugged into round holes, and all on account of the Hawks brass avoiding putting Bolland - a natural center - in a scoring role.

Quote:
And it's not Q's bias, it's his approach (some would say obsession) to having two balanced scoring lines and a shutdown 3rd line. Ask a knowledgeable Hawks fan.
Whatever you want to call it, it's complete speculation.

Quote:
The basic premise here is that there's more to the story than the other poster assumed. It's not a Staal vs. Bolland comparison so you can cool your jets. You're barking up the wrong tree here.
There's really not. You're just adding theories that can't be substantiated.

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06-06-2012, 07:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Kane was drafted as a winger, and had never been a regular center in the NHL before this year:

"Obviously, my best [individual] years were at right wing. This year was a little bit different because I never really played center before. It was the first time I was playing center. I had to try it out. Even when I wasn’t doing that well at center in November or December, the team was still winning." - Pat Kane

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/hocke...rick-kane.html

Sharp, as we discussed earlier, broke out as a winger on the Hawks when he first came over from Philly, and he's always been more comfortable there.

You are making it seem as though these guys can switch from wing to center and back with equal aplomb, and that's simply not the case. They're square pegs being plugged into round holes, and all on account of the Hawks brass avoiding putting Bolland - a natural center - in a scoring role.



Whatever you want to call it, it's complete speculation.



There's really not. You're just adding theories that can't be substantiated.
You're right. Bolland sucks. We really thought we could fleece you by trying to trade a crappy overpaid third line center, a crappy prospect, and crappy draft pick for superstar Jordan Staal. But you caught us. Move along.

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06-06-2012, 08:01 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
You're right. Bolland sucks. We really thought we could fleece you by trying to trade a crappy overpaid third line center, a crappy prospect, and crappy draft pick for superstar Jordan Staal. But you caught us. Move along.
That's not what I said at all. Just talking issue with the idea that Bolland should be treated like he's scoring center capable.

He shouldn't.

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06-06-2012, 08:05 PM
  #61
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Glad to see this has fallen the path of just about every other Staal thread so far.

Step 1: Non-Penguins fan makes an offer
Step 2: Penguins fans say they'd rather not
Step 3: STAAL IS AN OVERRATED MEDIOCRITY AND I BELIEVE SO STRONGLY IN THIS THAT I STILL WANT MY TEAM TO ACQUIRE HIM

No Penguins fan wants Staal to be traded and there's a reason for that that, amazingly, stretches beyond his point totals.

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Old
06-07-2012, 04:50 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
One of those things says: Staal is not as good at wing as he is at center, where, blimey, he isn't quite as good as Evgeni Malkin.

The other one says: Bolland isn't quite as good in the top6 as he is in the bottom6, I'd rather play Kruger over him.

Both of those kinda carry a value implication with them. a) center > wing and b) top6 > bottom6.

So really you can make it sound similar, but it still means that Q probably thinks Bolland isn't a top6 player. Especially taking into account Toewes' concussion. Staal always gets the Bylsma's whole confidence, when Crosby is down for the count.
There is no facet of hockey in which Kruger exceeds Bolland. None. Bolland>>>Kruger in any center role, lines 1-4.

However, if you believe your above statement to be true, the Hawks will most graciously switch in Kruger for Bolland in the trade offer.

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06-07-2012, 07:31 AM
  #63
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I like Krüger and have high hopes and always had... but Bolland is better for sure

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06-07-2012, 08:16 AM
  #64
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There is no facet of hockey in which Kruger exceeds Bolland. None. Bolland>>>Kruger in any center role, lines 1-4.

However, if you believe your above statement to be true, the Hawks will most graciously switch in Kruger for Bolland in the trade offer.
I did not say Kruger was better than Bolland, I said with his tactics last season Q implied that he considers him better (or at least better suited to a top6 role). I am just having a personal quibble with Storm Cast, who has repeatedly asserted that Bolland could well be Hawk's future 2LC solution.

Personally I don't care about Kruger or Bolland and it does not matter to me which one of them is in the trade offer, because I would not do it regardless. Pretty sure I already said that. Repeatedly.

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06-07-2012, 08:37 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
I am not questioning playing Sutter or Bolland to their strength btw, only your assertion that this is in no way any different from Staal not being converted to wing here. These guys are thrid line centers for entirely different reasons.
Come on man, you're a better poster than this. That's not at all the point and I've repeated several times that the "specifics are different" between the two situations. Again, the observation is that just as there is an explanation behind why Staal centers the 3rd line and isn't moved into the top 6 there is also a reason why Bolland is not moved into the top 6. It has mostly to do with Q's insistence on line configurations and roles. Whether Pens fans want to believe it or not is fine, it's not as if I'm saying Bolland is better than Staal. I've clearly stated it's the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Kane was drafted as a winger, and had never been a regular center in the NHL before this year:

"Obviously, my best [individual] years were at right wing. This year was a little bit different because I never really played center before. It was the first time I was playing center. I had to try it out. Even when I wasn’t doing that well at center in November or December, the team was still winning." - Pat Kane

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/hocke...rick-kane.html

Sharp, as we discussed earlier, broke out as a winger on the Hawks when he first came over from Philly, and he's always been more comfortable there.

You are making it seem as though these guys can switch from wing to center and back with equal aplomb, and that's simply not the case. They're square pegs being plugged into round holes, and all on account of the Hawks brass avoiding putting Bolland - a natural center - in a scoring role.

Whatever you want to call it, it's complete speculation.
Yes, we discussed Sharp, you know the guy who actually centered their 2nd line when they won a Cup. Kane? What I wrote was that he "played most of his hockey career at a center." I never said he was a regular NHL center. Maybe this quote from Q might help enlighten you or perhaps you can take issue with him...feel free to Google it...

“Absolutely,” Quenneville added. “He played center most of his career and I think defensively he got better down low and along the walls. It’s something we are going to take a look at.”

No, I'm not making it seem like any winger can simply shift to center. However, that's a far cry from guys who have played center actually...playing center. Novel concept for sure.

As for Bolland's role in Chicago. Here you go for the Daily Herald blog...

Quote:
“People always want to say Patrick Sharp isn't a center, but he's done it the last couple years,” Bowman said. “We won a Stanley Cup with Patrick playing in the middle so that's always an option.”

Quenneville prefers Sharp at center on the second line instead of pushing Dave Bolland into that spot.

“I think we're a special team when you have (Bolland) slotted as a third line center,” Quenneville said. “As a team we've done pretty well with him when he gets that checking assignment. I don't think you want to change that role or job description for him.”
So keep spinning it as complete speculation.

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Old
06-07-2012, 08:40 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
I did not say Kruger was better than Bolland, I said with his tactics last season Q implied that he considers him better (or at least better suited to a top6 role). I am just having a personal quibble with Storm Cast, who has repeatedly asserted that Bolland could well be Hawk's future 2LC solution.

Personally I don't care about Kruger or Bolland and it does not matter to me which one of them is in the trade offer, because I would not do it regardless. Pretty sure I already said that. Repeatedly.
With Q and Bolland, it's never a question of who's better suited for a top-6 role over Bolland as much as it is Q and Bolland, seemingly, both being more than content with leaving him in a shut-down role.

Bolland could very easily be a good 2nd line centre. Playing on a line with Hossa and say.. Saad, I could easily see him putting up 50 points.. but, as noted above.. there seems to be a comfort level with both Q and Bolland in the role he has and there doesn't seem to be much thought put into him playing him in a more offensive role.

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06-07-2012, 08:48 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
I did not say Kruger was better than Bolland, I said with his tactics last season Q implied that he considers him better (or at least better suited to a top6 role). I am just having a personal quibble with Storm Cast, who has repeatedly asserted that Bolland could well be Hawk's future 2LC solution.

Nope. What I wrote was that Q won't use him in that role because of the way he insists on line construction. Heck, I am quoted the guy.

I also stated that he could play there and that if he played there it's not a stretch to think he'd put up more points in that role, just as Staal did when he went from 3C to 2C. It's not to justify a trade, it's simply to clarify the earlier incorrect assertion a poster made about the reasons why he isn't used in the 2C role.

Again, I've posted several time to simply ask a knowledgeable Hawks fan. I can tell you their assessment is going to be much closer to mine than the spinning some want to do try to diminish Bolland's value because some have the nerve to think there's not a huge difference between him and Jordan Staal.

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06-07-2012, 08:57 AM
  #68
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Come on man, you're a better poster than this. That's not at all the point and I've repeated several times that the "specifics are different" between the two situations. Again, the observation is that just as there is an explanation behind why Staal centers the 3rd line and isn't moved into the top 6 there is also a reason why Bolland is not moved into the top 6. It has mostly to do with Q's insistence on line configurations and roles. Whether Pens fans want to believe it or not is fine, it's not as if I'm saying Bolland is better than Staal. I've clearly stated it's the other way around.
Okay, in that case it probably was my interpretation running away with me. Probably because if your well established Bolland appreciation. Sorry.

To me it's just that Bolland is a guy played to his strength on the third line, while Staal is a top6er trapped behind the hands down top2 centers in the world. So, that Bolland, with the way center depth is on most teams, might still be an only slightly below average 2LC is not that much of an argument with me, when not even his own coach will just not consider playing him there. it's however also not an argument, that if I bought into it, would make me want to trade Staal for Bolland any more, so there is that too.

At this point, it really honestly does not matter to me, where others see the relative value Bolland/Staal, because I don't imagine a 3 center model without Staal or another 3LC paid anywhere close to what Staal is and would be paid. So Bolland is just a non-starter to me.

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Again, I've posted several time to simply ask a knowledgeable Hawks fan. I can tell you their assessment is going to be much closer to mine than the spinning some want to do try to diminish Bolland's value because some have the nerve to think there's not a huge difference between him and Jordan Staal.
Again, I swear to you, I am not interested in bringing Bolland's value down or anything, I don't see a fit for him with the Pens, so I don't think we'd trade for him, so his value means jack all to me.

P.S.: When we had this argument about Bolland in the Staal thread, did I not multiple times agree that Sharp was a good center? He just did not actually play it last year, so I would not let it count as a reason Bolland did not play there. He is Hawks second best center and it remains baffling to me, he does not play it.

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06-07-2012, 09:25 AM
  #69
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Okay, in that case it probably was my interpretation running away with me. Probably because if your well established Bolland appreciation. Sorry.

To me it's just that Bolland is a guy played to his strength on the third line, while Staal is a top6er trapped behind the hands down top2 centers in the world. So, that Bolland, with the way center depth is on most teams, might still be an only slightly below average 2LC is not that much of an argument with me, when not even his own coach will just not consider playing him there. it's however also not an argument, that if I bought into it, would make me want to trade Staal for Bolland any more, so there is that too.

At this point, it really honestly does not matter to me, where others see the relative value Bolland/Staal, because I don't imagine a 3 center model without Staal or another 3LC paid anywhere close to what Staal is and would be paid. So Bolland is just a non-starter to me.

Again, I swear to you, I am not interested in bringing Bolland's value down or anything, I don't see a fit for him with the Pens, so I don't think we'd trade for him, so his value means jack all to me.

P.S.: When we had this argument about Bolland in the Staal thread, did I not multiple times agree that Sharp was a good center? He just did not actually play it last year, so I would not let it count as a reason Bolland did not play there. He is Hawks second best center and it remains baffling to me, he does not play it.
No we're actually very close to being on the same page overall. Neither of us thinks that kind of trade makes sense. Yes, you mentioned Sharp was a good C, that comment was directed elsewhere not at you.

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06-07-2012, 09:42 AM
  #70
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No we're actually very close to being on the same page overall. Neither of us thinks that kind of trade makes sense. Yes, you mentioned Sharp was a good C, that comment was directed elsewhere not at you.
Yeah, apparently I just have these regular conniptions, where I need to re-establish how much I DNW!!!!! Gagner or Bolland, because those two proposals won't just go away on HF. Just ignore me the next go around, we always end up not actually needing to fight afterall.

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06-07-2012, 11:19 AM
  #71
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Yes, we discussed Sharp, you know the guy who actually centered their 2nd line when they won a Cup.
And then they moved him back to wing because he's better there. That's why the search is perpetually on in Chicago for a 2nd line center.

Quote:
Kane? What I wrote was that he "played most of his hockey career at a center." I never said he was a regular NHL center. Maybe this quote from Q might help enlighten you or perhaps you can take issue with him...feel free to Google it...

No, I'm not making it seem like any winger can simply shift to center. However, that's a far cry from guys who have played center actually...playing center. Novel concept for sure.
Where Kane played before coming to the NHL is irrelevant. He's a skill player, and most every skill player comes up through the ranks as a center. This isn't a revelation.

What's relevant here is that his organization would rather have Kane go through all sorts of growing pains of learning the position at the NHL level than use Bolland in a 2nd line role.

Quote:
As for Bolland's role in Chicago. Here you go for the Daily Herald blog...

So keep spinning it as complete speculation.
I think that quote hurts your position more than it helps it.

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06-07-2012, 11:36 AM
  #72
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I wouldn't do either of these deals. Sharp is a great player but his age + contract do no help the Pens. The second one may be fair, I do not like the quantity for quality. Pass.

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06-07-2012, 01:00 PM
  #73
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I think that quote hurts your position more than it helps it.


Hardly, only in your little world. Bolland has unique value at 3C and there are other options at 2C, so according to Q himself, he stays there because it makes the team better.

This is hardly precedent. Carolina does the same thing with Sutter even while acknowledging he is good enough to be a 2C.

It's ok though. You can admit this reality even though you think it somehow dents Jordan Staal's reputation to be used in the same conversation with these guys.

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06-07-2012, 01:29 PM
  #74
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Hardly, only in your little world. Bolland has unique value at 3C and there are other options at 2C, so according to Q himself, he stays there because it makes the team better.

This is hardly precedent. Carolina does the same thing with Sutter even while acknowledging he is good enough to be a 2C.

It's ok though. You can admit this reality even though you think it somehow dents Jordan Staal's reputation to be used in the same conversation with these guys.
They don't, though, because both of his other options are better at wing...one of which hadn't even played center at the NHL level. They'd clearly prefer to keep both at wing if they had another legit 2C option, which is why they've even tried Kruger at 2C this past year.

As for Bolland, if he were a solid bet to succeed at 2C, he wouldn't be kept lower in the line-up just because he's done well in that role. I don't know of any team that's purposely refused to promote a burgeoning scoring line option because he's a good checker.

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06-07-2012, 02:21 PM
  #75
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The second proposal looks like a pretty good value. Although change Beach for maybe a better prospect like to say Morin and I would take it if I'm Pittsburgh.

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