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Chicago/Pittsburgh (Two Choices)

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Old
06-07-2012, 02:22 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Wings View Post
The second proposal looks like a pretty good value. Although change Beach for maybe a better prospect like to say Morin and I would take it if I'm Pittsburgh.
The 2nd deal is highway robbery by Pens

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06-07-2012, 02:26 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
The 2nd deal is highway robbery by Pens
This.

Staal is a better offensive player than Bolland by a fair margin (not huge, but the edge clearly exists). But Bolland is every bit of the shutdown player that JS is... it could be argued that he's even better.

Staal is clearly the better player, but when the package that the Hawks are sending over also includes Saad, a 2nd, and Beach (maybe doesn't have great value these days, but has been improving as a player quite steadily)... wow. No thanks.

Besides, if the Hawks trade Bolland for Staal, the gaping hole in the roster is just at #3C instead of #2C. Not worth it.

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06-07-2012, 02:26 PM
  #78
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I've always been a big Staal fan, but don't really understand either of those deals for Chicago. The first is a lateral move at best and the second too much.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
They don't, though, because both of his other options are better at wing...one of which hadn't even played center at the NHL level. They'd clearly prefer to keep both at wing if they had another legit 2C option, which is why they've even tried Kruger at 2C this past year.

As for Bolland, if he were a solid bet to succeed at 2C, he wouldn't be kept lower in the line-up just because he's done well in that role. I don't know of any team that's purposely refused to promote a burgeoning scoring line option because he's a good checker. :laugh:
This is ridiculous. You can't think of any examples where a coach may have misused or utilized a player? So coaches are infallible? He's already proven to be an effective second line center anyway. He was in 08/09 when he played with Ladd and Havlat. Even this year he put up 19 goals and almost 40 points while having the one of the highest number of defensive zone starts (6th) in the league.

I'll give you another example from the Hawks. Sharp has played his best hockey as a Hawk at center. They even won a cup with him as their second line center, yet Quennville would prefer to use (a not even ready for the nhl) Marcus Kruger instead. Sharp himself has said he wouldn't mind playing center, but Quennville won't use him for some reason. So you'd agree that Kruger is a better option as a second line center than Sharp right?

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06-07-2012, 02:32 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
They don't, though, because both of his other options are better at wing...one of which hadn't even played center at the NHL level. They'd clearly prefer to keep both at wing if they had another legit 2C option, which is why they've even tried Kruger at 2C this past year.

As for Bolland, if he were a solid bet to succeed at 2C, he wouldn't be kept lower in the line-up just because he's done well in that role. I don't know of any team that's purposely refused to promote a burgeoning scoring line option because he's a good checker.
Jordan Staal would be one example. Pittsburgh has had a never ending need for top six wingers and yet Jordan Staal remains third line center because he fits the team better there. You can argue how that's completely different but not really. Pens had Crosby and Malkin to stabilize the top two lines but Hawks have Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp to stabilize our top two lines. So for the sake of balance it's considered in the teams best interest in the mind of the coach to have Bolland who has been a neceasary factor on the Hawks having a good third line not play on the 2nd line. Don't blab on about the Pens having a three line model and then be ignorant that other teams feel the same way. There is no doubt Bolland would make the top six better but then the third line becomes complete an utter horse crap. Hope that helps clear it up for you.

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06-07-2012, 02:33 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
As for Bolland, if he were a solid bet to succeed at 2C, he wouldn't be kept lower in the line-up just because he's done well in that role. I don't know of any team that's purposely refused to promote a burgeoning scoring line option because he's a good checker.
You just love to misrepresent things don't ya?

Who said anything about a "burgeoning" scoring line option? Oh, that's right, nobody. And "good checker?" He is one the top 3 shutdown centers in the NHL. Big difference but nice try.

And I just referenced in the last post that the situation with Sutter is one where they consider him too valuable as a shutdown C to be promoted to 2C. You're way out of your element on this topic. Sometimes when a coach insists on specific line roles, it happens. Ask a knowledgeable Hawks or Canes fan - you might get enlightened. But probably not.

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06-07-2012, 03:18 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
This.

Staal is a better offensive player than Bolland by a fair margin (not huge, but the edge clearly exists). But Bolland is every bit of the shutdown player that JS is... it could be argued that he's even better.

Staal is clearly the better player, but when the package that the Hawks are sending over also includes Saad, a 2nd, and Beach (maybe doesn't have great value these days, but has been improving as a player quite steadily)... wow. No thanks.
Several Pens fans have admitted that the value was fine, but the trade simply wasn't. You seem to omit that point entirely. I can add fourth liners, picks and decent prospects to Dupuis until the value is there for Kane and I feel queasy about the deal and you still would not want anything to do with it. Rightfully so.

Bottom line is, it doesn't matter even if Bolland is the most elite checking center in all the lands, because if what we want is an elite third line center, we simply stand pat. There needs to be some puzzle piece in that deal, which makes it worth PIT's while as soon as next season.

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06-07-2012, 03:24 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Several Pens fans have admitted that the value was fine, but the trade simply wasn't. You seem to omit that point entirely. I can add fourth liners, picks and decent prospects to Dupuis until the value is there for Kane and I feel queasy about the deal and you still would not want anything to do with it. Rightfully so.

Bottom line is, it doesn't matter even if Bolland is the most elite checking center in all the lands, because if what we want is an elite third line center, we simply stand pat. There needs to be some puzzle piece in that deal, which makes it worth PIT's while as soon as next season.
Well the difference comes down to how you view Brandon Saad. I personally think adding him in order to upgrade Bolland to Staal is a stupid short sighted idea. Pens feel he doesnt close that gap sufficiently. There in lies the difference.

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06-07-2012, 03:36 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Several Pens fans have admitted that the value was fine, but the trade simply wasn't. You seem to omit that point entirely. I can add fourth liners, picks and decent prospects to Dupuis until the value is there for Kane and I feel queasy about the deal and you still would not want anything to do with it. Rightfully so.

Bottom line is, it doesn't matter even if Bolland is the most elite checking center in all the lands, because if what we want is an elite third line center, we simply stand pat. There needs to be some puzzle piece in that deal, which makes it worth PIT's while as soon as next season.
Huh? My post wasn't directed at you. I was saying that the value sucks for Chicago. They give too much in that trade.

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06-07-2012, 03:38 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Well the difference comes down to how you view Brandon Saad. I personally think adding him in order to upgrade Bolland to Staal is a stupid short sighted idea. Pens feel he doesnt close that gap sufficiently. There in lies the difference.
I view Brandon Saad as your top propect, a pretty good maybe top50 prospect league-wide and a nice to have for a defence-heavy prospect pool, but he is neither the immediate difference maker nor the proven right shot for the PP the Pens are looking for.

I actually really like Saad, I think my main disagreement in evaluation still lies with Bolland. And with not taking mainly futures for Staal.

And just for argument's sake, I could well have added Morrow to the Dupuis deal. Who would look just as good in your defensive pool as Saad would look in the dearth of high end foward prospects here.

P.S.: This is strictly an analogy, I do not want to trade for Kane in actual fact.

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06-07-2012, 03:40 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Huh? My post wasn't directed at you. I was saying that the value sucks for Chicago. They give too much in that trade.
I was just responding to the whole "high way robbery, Pens would be mad to turn it down" dialog overall using your post as a jumping off point, so I quoted it. You was general you and not meant to criticize you personally in any way.

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06-07-2012, 03:53 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
I view Brandon Saad as your top propect, a pretty good maybe top50 prospect league-wide and a nice to have for a defence-heavy prospect pool, but he is neither the immediate difference maker nor the proven right shot for the PP the Pens are looking for.

I actually really like Saad, I think my main disagreement in evaluation still lies with Bolland. And with not taking mainly futures for Staal.

And just for argument's sake, I could well have added Morrow to the Dupuis deal. Who would look just as good in your defensive pool as Saad would look in the dearth of high end foward prospects here.

P.S.: This is strictly an analogy, I do not want to trade for Kane in actual fact.
I get that it's analogy but its one that utterly fails. There is no way the gap between Bolland and Staal is anywhere near the gap between Dupuis and Kane.

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06-07-2012, 04:06 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
I get that it's analogy but its one that utterly fails. There is no way the gap between Bolland and Staal is anywhere near the gap between Dupuis and Kane.
Whatever, just substitute Vitale and Bolland for Dupuis and Kane then (I don't feel like making the same kind of longwinded argument for Dupuis, that Hawks fans are making for Bolland here, his awesome 59 points vs cap hit and all), the point still stands, you would not want to massively downgrade on a core player for only fourth liners and second round picks to make up the theoretical value either.

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06-07-2012, 04:16 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Whatever, just substitute Vitale and Bolland for Dupuis and Kane then (I don't feel like making the same kind of longwinded argument for Dupuis, that Hawks fans are making for Bolland here, his awesome 59 points vs cap hit and all), the point still stands, you would not want to massively downgrade on a core player for only fourth liners and second round picks to make up the theoretical value either.
I would love to hear that argument actually. Does pascal dupuis have better career playoff numbers than Kane? Bolland does than Staal. Vitale is another terrible analogy.

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06-07-2012, 04:24 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
I would love to hear that argument actually. Does pascal dupuis have better career playoff numbers than Kane? Bolland does than Staal. Vitale is another terrible analogy.
I am starting to think that you honestly see Bolland in somewhere akin to the same league as Staal, in which case,
a) we are too far apart for this argument to go any further still having any kind of sense to it and
b) I am kind of puzzled as to why you would even consider trading Bolland+anything for Staal in the first place.

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06-07-2012, 04:34 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
I am starting to think that you honestly see Bolland in somewhere akin to the same league as Staal, in which case,
a) we are too far apart for this argument to go any further still having any kind of sense to it and
b) I am kind of puzzled as to why you would even consider trading Bolland+anything for Staal in the first place.
I never said that. I questioned your under-valuing of Bolland. I don't think the gap between Bolland and Staal is anywhere near the gap between Dupuis and Kane like you apparently do. In which case, indeed we are too far apart for this conversation to go anywhere. And I don't like the Bolland + Saad for Staal proposal in the first place. That was some other Hawks fan.

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06-07-2012, 07:32 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Cullksinikers View Post
Number one


  • Staal
  • Tangradi


  • Sharp
  • 2012 3rd-round pick
I'd consider this deal, if only due to possible cap reasons. If the the Pens couldn't fit Staal AND Parise, then I'd go this route.

Quote:
Number two


  • Staal


  • Bolland
  • Saad
  • Beach
  • 2012 2nd-round pick

Thoughts?
Pass on the second deal. It's just like the Toronto proposals.

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06-07-2012, 10:14 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by helicon1 View Post
This is ridiculous. You can't think of any examples where a coach may have misused or utilized a player? So coaches are infallible? He's already proven to be an effective second line center anyway. He was in 08/09 when he played with Ladd and Havlat. Even this year he put up 19 goals and almost 40 points while having the one of the highest number of defensive zone starts (6th) in the league.
That was never my argument. I am arguing against the idea that Coach Q thinks he could be a legit 2nd line center, but is using him as a checking line center instead because he's good at it.

If you think Bolland's '08-'09 season was an example of a legit 2nd line center, more power to you.

Quote:
I'll give you another example from the Hawks. Sharp has played his best hockey as a Hawk at center. They even won a cup with him as their second line center, yet Quennville would prefer to use (a not even ready for the nhl) Marcus Kruger instead. Sharp himself has said he wouldn't mind playing center, but Quennville won't use him for some reason. So you'd agree that Kruger is a better option as a second line center than Sharp right?
I think you'll find many who disagree on this front.

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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Jordan Staal would be one example. Pittsburgh has had a never ending need for top six wingers and yet Jordan Staal remains third line center because he fits the team better there. You can argue how that's completely different but not really. Pens had Crosby and Malkin to stabilize the top two lines but Hawks have Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp to stabilize our top two lines. So for the sake of balance it's considered in the teams best interest in the mind of the coach to have Bolland who has been a neceasary factor on the Hawks having a good third line not play on the 2nd line. Don't blab on about the Pens having a three line model and then be ignorant that other teams feel the same way. There is no doubt Bolland would make the top six better but then the third line becomes complete an utter horse crap. Hope that helps clear it up for you.
I didn't express myself clearly - I meant to say in the same position. Clearly, moving to a scoring wing role as a natural center is a different kettle of fish.

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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Who said anything about a "burgeoning" scoring line option? Oh, that's right, nobody. And "good checker?" He is one the top 3 shutdown centers in the NHL. Big difference but nice try.
Isn't that what your entire schtick in these threads has been about? Presenting Bolland as 2nd line center capable, but being held back by Quenneville?

If I misinterpreted your intent, I'm sorry.

Quote:
And I just referenced in the last post that the situation with Sutter is one where they consider him too valuable as a shutdown C to be promoted to 2C. You're way out of your element on this topic. Sometimes when a coach insists on specific line roles, it happens. Ask a knowledgeable Hawks or Canes fan - you might get enlightened. But probably not.
So, are you supposing that the likes of Bolland and Sutter would be good 2nd line centers? Anybody can just play on a 2nd line.

Because if the argument is that both Bolland and Sutter are quality 3rd line centers who can be slotted into the 2C position, then that's literally true. If you're presuming that they could perform close to how Staal has over the past two years, then that's something different entirely.

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06-08-2012, 07:27 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Isn't that what your entire schtick in these threads has been about? Presenting Bolland as 2nd line center capable, but being held back by Quenneville?

If I misinterpreted your intent, I'm sorry.

So, are you supposing that the likes of Bolland and Sutter would be good 2nd line centers? Anybody can just play on a 2nd line.

Because if the argument is that both Bolland and Sutter are quality 3rd line centers who can be slotted into the 2C position, then that's literally true. If you're presuming that they could perform close to how Staal has over the past two years, then that's something different entirely.
Huh? It was never about putting up Staal-like numbers. I repeatedly stated that Staal is better than both offensively. The point was that you can't compare Staal's point production while at 2C with theirs at 3C, as some posters did. Bolland and Sutter would both produce more at 2C than they currently do but not at Staal's level, IMO.

The premise was that the "gap" between the 3 is not huge and that it's misleading to compare Staal's increased offensive role lately with their continued 3C shutdown roles. As I've stated all along, this is not exactly a quantum leap but some have tried to make it so. Off-season madness in full force.

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06-08-2012, 01:10 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That was never my argument. I am arguing against the idea that Coach Q thinks he could be a legit 2nd line center, but is using him as a checking line center instead because he's good at it.
Yeah sorry, misunderstood you there. My fault didn't read any of your other posts in this thread. I don't really agree with that point either but I see it's already been hashed out in this thread.

Quote:
If you think Bolland's '08-'09 season was an example of a legit 2nd line center, more power to you.
Ok? Bolland scored 47 points (40 even strength) as a second line center, on a team that finished fourth in the conference and went to the western final. With a ton of defensive zone starts, not much pp time, and in his first full year in the nhl. That to me is not a guy who could be a "good" second line center, that's a guy (in combination with years since) who already has proven he is.

Quote:
I think you'll find many who disagree on this front.
Well without going off on too much of a tangent the people who think that (and you?) are wrong. If the argument is the team is more effective with Sharp the "goal scoring winger" versus the "two way center", and that his production drops when he moves to center, then that I understand. Don't agree as there doesn't really seem to be that much evidence that it does drop, but I appreciate the argument.

His best stretches as a Hawk have been at center. As a wing over the past four years he's been really inconsistent. Long stretches of floating around just looking to score goals, no attention to the defensive end, etc. Playing the pretty perimeter game. Last year especially he was brutal (to be fair so was everybody else though, and he was much more focused this year). If his name was Patrick Kane he'd be crucified. He's always been much more engaged as a center. It's really been night and day. I'd imagine most people would have the 2010 playoffs as the best Sharp has looked as a Hawk too. His best stretch as a wing was I thought was during the Toews and kane rookie seasons.

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06-08-2012, 02:02 PM
  #95
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Can we end this stupidity? Pens don't want Bolland, period. They would have little need for him UNLESS Staal wants to go and even then, they would be looking for top six help in this trade, not someone to take over Staal's spot.

Please remember that Staal has not been offered to Chicago in the situation ... a Hawk fan attempted to get Staal so just let it die.

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