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Luongo Trade Value

View Poll Results: What is Luongo's Value?
High Value (e.g., Schenn & Kadri / etc.) 57 13.87%
Moderate Value (e.g., Franson & MacArthur / etc.) 211 51.34%
Low Value (e.g., Franson / 2nd rounder / etc.) 99 24.09%
Negative Value (e.g., Komisarek / etc.) 30 7.30%
Highly Negative Value (e.g., Komisarek & Lombardi) 14 3.41%
Voters: 411. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-07-2012, 10:14 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I voted for Negative Value because I can't see Mike Gillis thinking he can get an A+ package of players/picks going to Vancouver. In my view it's obvious that the Canucks want to get rid of Luongo's contract and they can't see him as their #1 Goalie, so I say Burke or whoever trades for him has all the power when choosing what they are giving up.
It will depend a lot on how many other teams are interested and if Lu will waive his NTC to go to those teams.

Lets pretend for a second that we are the only team interested. The cost would certainly be a bit less, but Gillis still isn't going to take back a bunch of **** just to get rid of him.

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06-07-2012, 10:34 PM
  #152
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Oh look, Canuck's fans now acting like Bobby Mac doesn't **** about their team.

The level these guys drag themselves down to is hilarious.

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06-07-2012, 11:53 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
I couldn't give a crap how long you've been around this game. There are plenty of people at retirement age who have watched hockey for decades yet don't have a sweet clue of what they're talking about on these boards. So don't give me that spiel as if you're somehow more qualified than others. It's elitist and not conducive to productive conversation.

You talk about the Leafs being desperate for a starting goaltender, and I understand where that comes from. But just because we haven't made the playoffs in 'x' amount of years does not mean we should make stupid, senseless trades out of desperation. That is when mistakes are made. It's creating holes in one area to fill a hole in another.

Kadri has a bright future in this league. He has 15-18 years of very good hockey left in him. He was drafted #7 overall for a reason: because he is going to be an impact top-6 forward. When compared to other players of his size and skill-set who took a while to make it to the NHL (Ribeiro, Roy, Marchand), he is on pace with how their careers started out.

Schenn has shown glimpses of dominance in years 1 and 3 of his career but regressions in 2 and 4. Many believe it was because of the emphasis our development staff placed on bulking up more, which slowed him down on the ice. Despite this, he has been at the top of the league in hits every year. He shows leadership qualities beyond his years. With our new coach and skating coach we have high hopes for his future.

Speaking of desperation, you have a team with two #1 goalies: one's being paid $5.3M until the age of 43 and the other is an RFA set to make a boatload of cash. Schneider's time is now and he and his agent know it. Teams are likely foaming at the mouth just waiting for an opportunity to send him an offer sheet on July 1 and really put the Canucks in a bad spot. Gillis has three weeks to trade Luongo to a very short list of teams who are likely all very apprehensive of the length of his contract. I can't believe Canucks fans believe Gillis is in a negotiation position of strength here.

You can act as if you know what's going through Burke's mind all you want but the fact of the matter is he's not about to give up significant pieces of our future for a 33-year-old goaltender with a cumbersome 10-year contract, especially with the uncertainty involved in how the new CBA will address these contracts. The Leafs are assuming ALL of the risk in that situation. If that's what it takes, a deal won't be made.
Let me address your concerns .

It doesn't matter to me if you care how long Ive been around, I thought I would let you know. I believe -through trial and error that is - I am able to be somewhat objective and would have some experience that I have gained in that time. I felt as though that would let you know I do not harbor any resentment for the leafs nor am I ignorant to both teams needs . I think calling it 'elitist' to be somewhat cynical and judgmental. Try to keep an open mind.

I do talk about the leafs needing goaltending. Your decision to call it desperate is subjective. I believe if you want to move the leafs forward, then yes I would agree with your assessment. If you know something about the game, you would also understand the business end of the game . Then you would agree that the owner of the team is missing out on revenue for years which does matter.

Its not a tv show. Its real life. You would also have to agree that GMs lose their jobs if given enough time to have no playoff success. The playoffs is where the owners make their money.Playoffs is where players make their careers and ask for big paychecks.

If the team doesn't even give them a chance to make the playoffs, players want to move on with their careers and wont re sign. Other players will ask for over payment to remain. Its not a good situation to be a long term non playoff team. Nobody wins.

Burke has success in many regards. But he is NOT in some kind of Edmonton Oiler super tank rebuild mode. Hes had his rebuild years. Hes had his Kessel trade . Hes had years to work it all out. The next obvious step is to get a solid goaltender you can rely on for years to move your team forward. To deny this would be disingenuous.

Schenider wont be given an offer sheet. Why? Because if you knew something about the game like you claim, you know Schneider would only accept offer sheets if he wishes to leave Vancouver. He has been with the team 8 years and his agent would go to Gillis and ask to be moved so the Canucks could get a good return for him. He wouldnt just keep it quiet and then sign offer sheets behind Gillis' back. Thats ridiculous.

If you knew something about the game, you would know this. So surely you will agree. The fact Luongo is on the chopping block means Schneider has indicated he wants to remain in Vancouver so he wont sign any offer sheet.

You do have a valid point that having Luongo untraded means we will have his 5.3mil and Schneiders probable 4.5 mil on the books. Thats a heck of a lot to have for your goaltending. But the truth is also the Canucks can carry it if they have to. They have the cap space and have indicated for the record in public they would carry them both. It will mean trading Ballard and letting Malholtra walk on waivers but we can do it without messing with any of our core or young players.

Now we both dont believe they want to keep both Luongo and Schnieds, but we also arent going to accept dogmeat for Luongo either. So if the leafs want to lowball, you wont get him.

And as we walk away, the two teams are in very different situations. The Canucks are the two time defending president trophy winners. Leafs are in the long term suffering situation. At this point you dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure out which team suffers most from not having a deal done.

Since you know so much about the game, you will agree . If you could take yourself out of being subjective for the leafs and looked at it objectively, you would see the Leafs need quality goaltending more than the Canucks need to unload Luongo.

We aren't asking for some Lindros style compensation package for Luongo either so I have no idea where you get this 'significant assets' . My offer was to trade down from 5th to 26th. Thats all. There are other similar offers that aren't that painful for you.

As far as Luongo's contract, if you know a lot about the game we dont even need to discuss this. You would know the contract isnt that bad due to the outs . If you knew something about the game you know any CBA wont affect the contracts negotiated before any new CBA so that theory goes out as well.

So again, as I indicated in my original post, its not about both teams having the need, its about coming to a reasonable offer.

So if you want to go with what you got, great. We will make a deal with someone else or keep him.

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06-08-2012, 12:01 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Hackeybuff View Post
The next obvious step is to get a solid goaltender you can rely on for years to move your team forward. To deny this would be disingenuous.
.
I deny it. It's not the next obvious step at all. Fixing our team defence is. Then we'll see how badly we want a 33 year old goalie with a brutal contract (it may not be brutal for all teams, but it is for a young rebuilding team).

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06-08-2012, 12:19 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I deny it. It's not the next obvious step at all. Fixing our team defence is. Then we'll see how badly we want a 33 year old goalie with a brutal contract (it may not be brutal for all teams, but it is for a young rebuilding team).
I'd say the contract works better for big franchises like the canucks or leafs who can afford to pay him 3-1-1-1 mil to play his last years in the minors if he doesn't want to retire.

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06-08-2012, 12:24 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'd say the contract works better for big franchises like the canucks or leafs who can afford to pay him 3-1-1-1 mil to play his last years in the minors if he doesn't want to retire.
Obviously that's not an issue for the Leafs. But it's far from the worst part of his contract. His NTC is as limiting as I've ever seen (short of being a full NTC). I will accept him on my team if we give nothing up for him.

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06-08-2012, 12:33 AM
  #157
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The obvious next step would be to be patient with the promising you goaltenders we have at the moment without burying them beneath a long term veteran. And to be patient with our you defense group, which clearly will require additions (and subtractions). It's time for patience to see how the current group as a whole responds to a new coach in a new season.

From the quotes management has come out and stated, the 5 overall is not in play for acquiring a goalie. They intent to draft somewhere in the top five. So if this trade does go down it will certainly be just prospects and/or roster players.

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06-08-2012, 12:33 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Obviously that's not an issue for the Leafs. But it's far from the worst part of his contract. His NTC is as limiting as I've ever seen (short of being a full NTC). I will accept him on my team if we give nothing up for him.
Why would the NTC matter? If Luongo's play gets to the point where you need to trade him, why would anyone take him? Realistically when would you want to trade him? At 38? If by then you have a solid goalie prospect in the wings ready to take over, then ask Luongo to retire or go to the minors. It's doubtful anyone would want Luongo as the most expensive veteran backup in the league. After 5 years of relative competitiveness, which will allow Burke to keep his job/finish his rebuild, the owners to make some playoff revenue, and your good players to enjoy being on a team that is not staying stagnant. If a prospect or two who are not likely to seriously disrupt your young talent(which includes Gardiner and the fifth as part of your future core) is moved to help start a culture of winning over 5 years or so, will it really have been a bad investment?

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06-08-2012, 01:02 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Hackeybuff View Post
Schenider wont be given an offer sheet. Why? Because if you knew something about the game like you claim, you know Schneider would only accept offer sheets if he wishes to leave Vancouver. He has been with the team 8 years and his agent would go to Gillis and ask to be moved so the Canucks could get a good return for him. He wouldnt just keep it quiet and then sign offer sheets behind Gillis' back. Thats ridiculous.

If you knew something about the game, you would know this. So surely you will agree. The fact Luongo is on the chopping block means Schneider has indicated he wants to remain in Vancouver so he wont sign any offer sheet.
Darcy Regier probably thought that about Vanek. Burke probably thought that about Penner.

Schneider doesn't have to accept an offer sheet, but his agent can use the threat of signing an offer sheet to up his value in negotiations. Lets say Schneider's demands are around $5.5M on a long-term contract. Vancouver doesn't want to commit more than $5M to a goalie who has only played 76 NHL games. Then comes along Team A, who is in need of a #1 goaltender, with an offer of $6M a year for 10 years. Schneider's agent says "We got this offer from Team A. Now we haven't signed it yet, and Corey would like to stay, but you need to bring your offer up to $5.5M for us to turn this down because it's a great opportunity."

My original response was to a post that suggested Kadri + Schenn + 35th for Luongo + Raymond + Schroeder. The first two are the "significant assets" to which I was referring. Since you weren't a part of the initial conversation I figured you would have read back a little to find the context for my comments but it appears you did not.

As for the rest of your post, I don't believe that wall of condescension deserves one second more of my attention. Funny how you call the suggestion you're an elitist subjective and then go about creating the mother of all pretentious rants. In fact, it's that sort of behaviour which makes your fanbase so despised by the rest of the NHL fans. Do grow up.

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06-08-2012, 01:09 AM
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I deny it. It's not the next obvious step at all. Fixing our team defence is. Then we'll see how badly we want a 33 year old goalie with a brutal contract (it may not be brutal for all teams, but it is for a young rebuilding team).

Sorry but I disagree! Having a stable goalie in net is the foundation for the rest of the team, if the defence have confidence in the goalie then they are able to focus on their job, with a confident blueline the forwards are able to concentrate on theirs.

I agree though on one thing, we need to have a team oriented defense system. People can rag on about the leafs blueline but keep in mind it's only two of them out there on the ice, the other 3 are fowards and more often then not the forwards were more content to jump up and wait for a pass instead of coming back in their own end to help out the blueliners.

Luongo at 33 is not over the hill, goalies tend to peak a few years later then forwards/blueliners, Luongo IS still in his prime. Joseph was 31 when he was signed here and he gave us 4 solid seasons up until he was traded when he was 35. Belfour was 37 when he arrived and he played solid for 2 seasons before ******** the bed in his fnal one at 40.

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06-08-2012, 01:15 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
At risk of being flamed, judging by some offers posted here...
Luongo + Raymond + Schroeder
for
Kadri + Schenn + 2nd.

Why Toronto does it:
Schenn has not gone anywhere near his potential in Toronto. He is overpaid and underachieving, with the potential to get better.
Kadri is expendable, with Colborne and Gally/Grigs able to add some centre depth to your roster.

Luongo-Allows you to be competitive and contend for around 5 years, which is enough time to find your own goalie and have him mentored by Luongo. TSN says that Luongo has let leak he'd like to retire in around 4-5 years. And even if he doesn't, you can bury him in the minors.

Raymond is a two way winger who is wicked fast. He is a bit of a reclamation project, but is certainly an asset as he shows flashes of offensive instinct while still being responsible defensively.

Schroeder is our top centre prospect, who can somewhat replace Kadri in the depths chart.

Anyways, this trade makes both teams better and gives players on both teams the fresh start they need. All I ask is that I don't get responses like"this is awful" without a reason why. Tell me what you see as a more beneficial trade for both teams.
"Our top priority is to get bigger" - Brian Burke.

He said that today. Raymond and schroeder dont accomplish that. I would rather trade for just luongo. Maybe ballard if you take lombardi.

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06-08-2012, 01:35 AM
  #162
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What do you Leaf fans think about a trade of Luongo for Kulemin, Colborne/Ashton and a 2nd?

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06-08-2012, 01:39 AM
  #163
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What do you Leaf fans think about a trade of Luongo for Kulemin, Colborne/Ashton and a 2nd?
Too hard for me.

I want a soft deal.

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06-08-2012, 01:43 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I deny it. It's not the next obvious step at all. Fixing our team defence is. Then we'll see how badly we want a 33 year old goalie with a brutal contract (it may not be brutal for all teams, but it is for a young rebuilding team).
A good goalie helps fix team defense too you know. Cujo with better line up in front of him was winning games for us and handling 40+ a night often.

A team is only as good as thier goaltending. Look what happens to teams like Philly, Washington (more so in past), Ottawa in those battle of Ontario series', etc...

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06-08-2012, 01:46 AM
  #165
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What do you Leaf fans think about a trade of Luongo for Kulemin, Colborne/Ashton and a 2nd?
I think it's a fair deal IMO- Even though I think Kulemin is our best all around forward, you have to give value to get some. Colborne IMO is at best an average 2nd line centre and at worst a 3rd liner, Ashton who knows with him.

However because we're taking on a massive contract you guys need to take one back as well.

To Vancouver: Kulemin, Ashton, Komiserak, 2nd

To Toronto: Luongo

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06-08-2012, 01:47 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
What do you Leaf fans think about a trade of Luongo for Kulemin, Colborne/Ashton and a 2nd?
I don't think Kulemin's going anywhere because of Burke's mandate to get bigger.

Counter: Lombardi, Ashton, 2nd

Flip Lombo at the trade deadline if you wish. Or keep him as a speedy #3 centerman.

Feel free to counter back.

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06-08-2012, 01:47 AM
  #167
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What do you Leaf fans think about a trade of Luongo for Kulemin, Colborne/Ashton and a 2nd?
Kulemin= mid/late first
Ashton/Colborne= early second
2nd = early second

Idk im on the fence really. This year was evidently an off season for kules, his worst season ever. Im pretty confident he will bounce back. Maybe Colborne+ Ashton + Armstrong? Thats the kind of deal I see happening tbh. What does van need in general?

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06-08-2012, 01:50 AM
  #168
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What do you Leaf fans think about a trade of Luongo for Kulemin, Colborne/Ashton and a 2nd?
Replace Kulemin with Clarke Mac (hate his contract) as Kuli will be cheaper and is better overall. I wouldnt think twice on pulling the trigger.

Colborne is the odd man out IMO. I havent been impressed at all during Marlie games (which is AHL) even if he is playing hurt, its the friggin playoffs and he looks like an Antropov lite from back in the day. Where does he fit into our plans? I think we need a top 1C (thru trade or UFA), Grabo is our 2nd line centre at a price that we prob wont be able to move, Bozak is a good 3rd line centre so where do you put him?

Kadri replaces Clarke Mac IMO on the wing or Frattin

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06-08-2012, 01:57 AM
  #169
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I think it's a fair deal IMO- Even though I think Kulemin is our best all around forward, you have to give value to get some. Colborne IMO is at best an average 2nd line centre and at worst a 3rd liner, Ashton who knows with him.

However because we're taking on a massive contract you guys need to take one back as well.

To Vancouver: Kulemin, Ashton, Komiserak, 2nd

To Toronto: Luongo
Sorry, I don't think we should have to take back Komisarek. The package itself without Komisarek has already taken into account that it is a fairly big contract.

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06-08-2012, 02:14 AM
  #170
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A good goalie helps fix team defense too you know.
I'm aware. Identifying a good goalie for your system isn't so easy. Case in point Bryzgalov, Vokoun vs Elliot, Smith.

Fix the other issues 1st, and then see what Scrivens/Reimer can do.

We need better goaltending, but we don't necessarily need Robbie Luongo.

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06-08-2012, 02:17 AM
  #171
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It sounds like Kulemin is a dealbreaker here, but I think he has to be included in the trade. Despite the fact that Luongo is on a big contract, he's still currently a great goalie, and he just won't be had for middling pieces. You have to give up something to get something. And to give up Kulemin as the main piece in a trade for Luongo, that's something I think you guys should be able to live with. I like Kulemin's potential, but I don't think he's some sort of stud in the making or something like that.

When you talk about true horrible contracts, they usually involve guys with big contracts and deteriorating skill, like a Komisarek, Redden or Gomez. Luongo is still a great goalie, and should be one for at least the next 2 to 3 seasons.

What other options are there that would help you out as much as Luongo will?

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06-08-2012, 02:20 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
It sounds like Kulemin is a dealbreaker here, but I think he has to be included in the trade. Despite the fact that Luongo is on a big contract, he's still currently a great goalie, and he just won't be had for middling pieces. You have to give up something to get something. And to give up Kulemin as the main piece in a trade for Luongo, that's something I think you guys should be able to live with. I like Kulemin's potential, but I don't think he's some sort of stud in the making or something like that.

When you talk about true horrible contracts, they usually involve guys with big contracts and deteriorating skill, like a Komisarek, Redden or Gomez. Luongo is still a great goalie, and should be one for at least the next 2 to 3 seasons.

What other options are there that would help you out as much as Luongo will?
Do you not see how stupid and short sighted it would be for our rebuilding team to pay big assets to add an older goalie to help for 2-3 years?

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06-08-2012, 02:22 AM
  #173
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What other options are there that would help you out as much as Luongo will?
And if Bourke says no, what team will you go to to get this price you are asking for?

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06-08-2012, 02:32 AM
  #174
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They'll take what we give'm, and be happy for it!

Srsly tho, Komisarek and a mid level prospect would be about what I'd think he's worth. Could see more pieces, if they want to make the deal bigger.

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06-08-2012, 02:40 AM
  #175
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Do you not see how stupid and short sighted it would be for our rebuilding team to pay big assets to add an older goalie to help for 2-3 years?
Your team isn't in rebuild mode. Calling it a rebuild is another way of saying your front office is incapable of doing their jobs. Any team that spends up to the salary cap, like the Leafs do, should make the playoffs every season as long as they can properly identify and develop talent.

And Kulemin, Colborne and a 2nd aren't big assets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
And if Bourke says no, what team will you go to to get this price you are asking for?
The two teams in Florida could use an upgrade in net, I doubt they would object to not having to give up any first round picks or top prospects to get the deal done.

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