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2014 - Canada Roster Discussion (Part III)

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08-08-2012, 10:33 AM
  #226
Mr Writer
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
The Maple Leaf comes before the CH, in my books. A few years ago I would have thought that Myers would have been a lock by now, but he's obviously not there yet.
I thought the same thing his rookie year. Speaking of French Canadians who may have a real shot, David Parron. Love this guy! He seems to be fully over his injury concerns and is ready to really light it up. I forgot to mention him earlier.

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08-08-2012, 10:37 AM
  #227
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Well well well... look who shows up!

Frankly I agree with what you said, but we're just disagreeing on time-tables. I just said if you're making a team for right now, they're not there yet. Anyone who watched RNH at the worlds knows that, and Hall has been injured, so.

Frankly, I think out of the two, RNH is more likely. Hall I can see being injured a lot unfortunately. The only bad thing about that is that RNH has to compete as a centerman, unless he's capable of playing at the wing. I think most people would agree that he's probably not in the top 6-7 Canadian centers. Hall has a better chance at wing and hopefully can go injury free. His skill set to me is a little more tantalizing for Team Canada given that there are a number similar forwards to RNH on the team. Pure speed would really help back some defenses up.

I just think its hard to imagine right now that you'd take RNH over Crosby, Stamkos, Bergeron (for defense), Giroux, Toews, Tavares, even J. Staal or E. Staal who frankly I'm not particularly high on.
I agree that I don't think they would make the team if it was this year. But how many rookies are there that would be in the conversation even like RNH is?

I am mainly basing my predictions on assuming RNH will continue to develop. If he plateaus at his rookie pace (0.84ppg) or has a softmore slump than I don't think he will make the team, but if he can make the jump to a ppg next year and get a good jump to the year after, it would be a tough decision not to take him.

Also there is another Worlds between now and then so he will have one more tourney to help adjust to big ice.

Hall is a wild card because he has been injured, he is definitely the most impact player of all three without a doubt. The kid is a born leader as well, Edmonton was so deflated every game Hall missed last year. I think because of his shoulder surgery this summer he might have a slow start to this year which will kill his chances of making it to the OGs.

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Well, Seabrook played like 5 minutes a game and both Pronger and Niedermayer were brutal before the medal round so there actually was quite a drop-off from Weber/Keith/Doughty and to a lesser extent Boyle before the Russia game. Everyone saw it, and I'm sure Babcock did too. But that's besides the point - I'm just trying to illustrate that the caliber of play goes up a few notches at the Olympics vis-a-vis the NHL.

Acknowledging that our style will need to adapt from 2010 given the larger ice surface, Babcock (assuming he's back as coach) does play a puck possession style, so strength down low will be important to some extent, though probably not as much as Vancouver where guys like Getzlaf and Morrow dominated down low. We're so deep at center (Crosby, Toews, Stamkos, Bergeron/Richards, Getzlaf, Staal, Giroux, Tavares) that I'm interested in knowing who you think should or will be left off the team in 2014 should RNH become an elite offensive threat (80 pts +). Who do you project to be on the team right now?
I agree that we have incredible depth at centre, and are even more lucky that a lot of these players are versatile and can play the wing.

If the team was chosen for this year I would take Crosby, Stamkos, Toews and Bergeron as my top 4 centres.

If and it is still a big if, RNH can continue to develop into a 80+ pt player I would move Stamkos to the wing on Crosby's line than have Crosby, RNH, Toews, Bergeron as my centerman. Hopkins is also going to have to get his face off percentage greatly improved as well.

The biggest upside to having RNH on the team will be the power play, at 18 years old last year he basically single handedly turned one of the third worst power play teams into 3rd best in the league.

I am not a big Getzlaf fan, so if our wings are too deep I wouldn't be heart broken if he was not on the team, especially if he continues to play like his did this year.

Richards/Stall/Giroux/Tavares can all be slotted in on the wing.

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08-08-2012, 12:14 PM
  #228
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I agree that I don't think they would make the team if it was this year. But how many rookies are there that would be in the conversation even like RNH is?

I am mainly basing my predictions on assuming RNH will continue to develop. If he plateaus at his rookie pace (0.84ppg) or has a softmore slump than I don't think he will make the team, but if he can make the jump to a ppg next year and get a good jump to the year after, it would be a tough decision not to take him.

Also there is another Worlds between now and then so he will have one more tourney to help adjust to big ice.

Hall is a wild card because he has been injured, he is definitely the most impact player of all three without a doubt. The kid is a born leader as well, Edmonton was so deflated every game Hall missed last year. I think because of his shoulder surgery this summer he might have a slow start to this year which will kill his chances of making it to the OGs.



I agree that we have incredible depth at centre, and are even more lucky that a lot of these players are versatile and can play the wing.

If the team was chosen for this year I would take Crosby, Stamkos, Toews and Bergeron as my top 4 centres.

If and it is still a big if, RNH can continue to develop into a 80+ pt player I would move Stamkos to the wing on Crosby's line than have Crosby, RNH, Toews, Bergeron as my centerman. Hopkins is also going to have to get his face off percentage greatly improved as well.

The biggest upside to having RNH on the team will be the power play, at 18 years old last year he basically single handedly turned one of the third worst power play teams into 3rd best in the league.

I am not a big Getzlaf fan, so if our wings are too deep I wouldn't be heart broken if he was not on the team, especially if he continues to play like his did this year.

Richards/Stall/Giroux/Tavares can all be slotted in on the wing.
Agreed on Getzlaf. He's not a great skater to begin with and IMO should only be considered if he rebounds really strongly this year. Perry needs to get back to 40-goal form too. Agreed as well on the guys who can be moved to the wing.

If RNH does in fact turn out to be a well-rounded, elite offensive threat within the next year and a half (and I'm talking at least 80+ points), then Yzerman would need to find a spot for him. I just wonder if he's best suited to center or the wing. Stamkos has always excelled with a LH playmaking winger on his right side (St. Louis), so a Stamkos-RNH combo could work if RNH's game is amenable to that. Stamkos would have a more mature 2-way game by then and I'd feel comfortable with him centering a line, much moreso than RNH. Personally, I'd like to split up Crosby and Stamkos at even-strength as each guy can easily be the focal point of their own scoring line. We'll get some insight into possible line combos at next summer's orientation camp.

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08-08-2012, 01:44 PM
  #229
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Those two should be removed.
M. Staal is the only Staal that should be a lock for the team.

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08-08-2012, 02:19 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
Agreed on Getzlaf. He's not a great skater to begin with and IMO should only be considered if he rebounds really strongly this year. Perry needs to get back to 40-goal form too. Agreed as well on the guys who can be moved to the wing.

If RNH does in fact turn out to be a well-rounded, elite offensive threat within the next year and a half (and I'm talking at least 80+ points), then Yzerman would need to find a spot for him. I just wonder if he's best suited to center or the wing. Stamkos has always excelled with a LH playmaking winger on his right side (St. Louis), so a Stamkos-RNH combo could work if RNH's game is amenable to that. Stamkos would have a more mature 2-way game by then and I'd feel comfortable with him centering a line, much moreso than RNH. Personally, I'd like to split up Crosby and Stamkos at even-strength as each guy can easily be the focal point of their own scoring line. We'll get some insight into possible line combos at next summer's orientation camp.
I fully expect St. Louis to be the guy on Stamkos' wing come 2014.

As far as RNH goes, I believe he has a very good chance to make his team, especially if him and Eberle develop good chemistry over the next while. Yzerman was very keen on chemistry and how well players play together when he built that 2010 team... and Eberle, in my opinion, will be on that team.


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08-08-2012, 02:20 PM
  #231
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In terms of your forwards, it surprises me that people forget how terrible Bergeron was in Vancouver. The guy was slow, had his minutes drastically cut, was terrible on the faceoffs and towards the end was not getting any regular minutes. He started playing with Crosby, and then the coaches removed Crosby from his line, and relegated Bergeron to less and less minutes. He will and should not be in Sochi. He was a very disappointing player in 2010. Same with RNH. I do not get the love affair of this guy. The guy turned 19 this year, and finished one season of pro hockey where he was decent but nothing special. There are other guys i like including Skinner and Seguin ahead of these two, with Evander Kane and Taylor Hall possibilities as well.
Which was a terrible move, imo. Yes, let's remove the guy from a person he's had great chemistry with before they have a chance to re-establish it.

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08-08-2012, 02:51 PM
  #232
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I fully expect St. Louis to be the guy on Stamkos' wing come 2014.

As far as RNH goes, I believe he has a very good chance to make his team, especially if him and Eberle develop good chemistry over the next while. Yzerman was very keen on chemistry and how well play together when he built that 2010 team... and Eberle, in my opinion, will be on that team.
St. Louis would certainly have been on my team in 2010, and he'd be a near-lock for 2014 as well if I had anything to say about it, but the fact is he was passed over 2 years ago by the same management / coaching team and he's not getting any younger so I'm very doubtful that he'll be there. Again, that's not my personal preference, but rather how I see things shaping up. I could be (and hope) I'm wrong - I'd love to see MSL ride shotgun with Stamkos on the international ice.

Personally I'm not as sold on Eberle as some other folks on here but do realize that he's probably a near-lock at this point given we're not very deep on the right side and he's one of the best we have at that position. Plus, HC seems to like continuity from the WJHCs and WHCs and he's always answered the bell when asked. Again, RNH has significant work to do between now and Dec. 2013 to improve his chances, but he has the talent to do it and I agree that pre-existing chemistry matters.

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08-08-2012, 02:53 PM
  #233
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Which was a terrible move, imo. Yes, let's remove the guy from a person he's had great chemistry with before they have a chance to re-establish it.
C'mon, they gave them two even-strength shifts together, that should have been plenty of time for them to get re-acquainted and re-ignite that old spark after not having played together for a few weeks since the spring of 2007.

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08-08-2012, 04:51 PM
  #234
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I agree that I don't think they would make the team if it was this year. But how many rookies are there that would be in the conversation even like RNH is?

I am mainly basing my predictions on assuming RNH will continue to develop. If he plateaus at his rookie pace (0.84ppg) or has a softmore slump than I don't think he will make the team, but if he can make the jump to a ppg next year and get a good jump to the year after, it would be a tough decision not to take him.

Also there is another Worlds between now and then so he will have one more tourney to help adjust to big ice.

Hall is a wild card because he has been injured, he is definitely the most impact player of all three without a doubt. The kid is a born leader as well, Edmonton was so deflated every game Hall missed last year. I think because of his shoulder surgery this summer he might have a slow start to this year which will kill his chances of making it to the OGs.



I agree that we have incredible depth at centre, and are even more lucky that a lot of these players are versatile and can play the wing.

If the team was chosen for this year I would take Crosby, Stamkos, Toews and Bergeron as my top 4 centres.

If and it is still a big if, RNH can continue to develop into a 80+ pt player I would move Stamkos to the wing on Crosby's line than have Crosby, RNH, Toews, Bergeron as my centerman. Hopkins is also going to have to get his face off percentage greatly improved as well.

The biggest upside to having RNH on the team will be the power play, at 18 years old last year he basically single handedly turned one of the third worst power play teams into 3rd best in the league.

I am not a big Getzlaf fan, so if our wings are too deep I wouldn't be heart broken if he was not on the team, especially if he continues to play like his did this year.

Richards/Stall/Giroux/Tavares can all be slotted in on the wing.
That's the whole thing about about placing young kids on this team based on projection or potential, most of the time it doesn't pan out the way you think it will. Most players careers aren't linear improvements, and statistically speaking, if you have a really good first year, your next year likely won't be as good.

Look at Skinner, Seguin, Duchene, Turris, JVR, Hodgson. Don't build a team on potential, its likely that one of the three of the Oilers will not develop into point per game players, for a number of reasons.

On Getzlaf, sure he had a bad season, but he's displayed over and over again that he's capable of putting up big numbers, and getting points in big games. I'd put him on the team right now ahead of Hall of RNH. And putting RNH on the powerplay is just insanity at this point. Sure, if you're projecting that he's a 100+ point player, but so far he isn't. There will be several Art Ross and Rocket Richard winners on the team, lets wait a little bit to let RNH shoulder the load.

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08-08-2012, 05:56 PM
  #235
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Personally, I don't have any Staal making the team, but imagine if all 3 made it lol.

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08-08-2012, 06:56 PM
  #236
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I wonder why so many people are breaking up the Nash-Richards-Toews line that dominated in Vancouver. They literally out competed every line they faced in the medal round and won puck battle after puck battle. They out-worked, neutralized, and out-scored the dangerous Ovechkin-Malkin-Semin line in QF with a tenacious back check and generated numerous scoring chances against the Americans in the gold medal game. That line represented the desire to win and puck possession hockey Babcock wanted Team Canada to play all tournament.


Maybe becuse 2010 is not 2014? There is other players that knocks on the door. Last season Nash/Richards were decent but not Olympic standard.

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08-08-2012, 07:10 PM
  #237
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Maybe becuse 2010 is not 2014? There is other players that knocks on the door. Last season Nash/Richards were decent but not Olympic standard.
Yet Richards won a Cup. He's a winner. Nash will have a great year in New York and has excelled in world play. I'd have them back in a heartbeat on a line with Toews.

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08-08-2012, 10:14 PM
  #238
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Forwards need to support the defense and goalie as they can't do everything.

You should put the "Oiler line" as the 2nd line then. Giroux should absolutely be in the top 6 though. He is good defensively, but he's 1 of the top offensive players on the whole team too and should be on a scoring line.

My "grinding" lines aren't without offensive abilities, they just can shutdown players with the best of them. I prefer E.Kane,Bergeron,Doan,Perry to do that than Seguin,Couture,Duchene.

Again, Couture,Seguin,Duchene will not become big or physical enough to compare to guys like E.Kane,Doan,Perry.

It may be big ice, but it's not like the game won't get physical. This won't be the All Star game. Otherwise, Russia will be winning gold for sure.

Iginla,E.Staal,Getzlaf aren't on my team. Iginla would be in my top 6 if he were to make it. He wouldn't be in a shutdown role. E.Staal is going to have to bring his game to a higher level to make it. If Getzlaf bounces back to 90 points, then it'll be hard not to have him on the team. I'd say Getzlaf has the highest chance of making it of those 3.

I don't believe Eberle is a lock. He'd be in a top 6 role, if he were to make it though.
Small, not overly fast, not physical, pretty good defensively and good offensively. Giroux is my current top line RW so Eberle isn't surpassing him. St Louis is small too, but a lot faster and brings leadership and i'd call it a tie for their defensive ability. If St Louis regresses quite a bit and Eberle improves quite a bit, then I could see Eberle filling that spot instead(2nd line RW). This would be predicting the future though. St Louis may very well "still have it" a year and a half from now.
What makes you think Couture, Duchene and Seguin wouldn't support the defense? They're better defensively than Doan, Perry and Kane, especially in two years. Doan will be 38, I can't believe you're considering him.

Physicality does NOT equate to defense.

If the tournament was on small ice, I would put a much bigger emphasis on physicality. Perry, J. Staal and Kane would be on my team over Skinner, Duchene, Couture. I'd even consider Kane over Skinner on big ice if Kane isn't too far off Skinner offensively.

Russia would not automatically win Gold if it was an All Star type game. Crosby, Tavares, Stamkos, Giroux, Eberle, ... > Malkin, Kovalchuk, Ovie. Like I said I'm projecting Duchene as a 70+ point forward, and he's the 13th forward. Russia doesn't come close to that kind of depth. Not even close.

Eberle was ppg in his 2nd season and will keep improving. Hockey Canada loves the guy. He's a lock especially considering he plays RW, a weak position for Canada. Eberle is better than St. Louis right now. AINEC imo. No way MSL scores that much on Edmonton this year, he benefits from Stamkos.

As for line numbering, who cares. By this logic, the Toews line was the 4th line in 2010. Yet Toews scored a whole bunch and won MVP. My Benn, Toews, Giroux line can play both a big offensive and defensive role. In 2010, they had the Crosby, Thornton, Getzlaf and Toews lines. Which are the 2 grind lines and which are the 2 scoring lines? Toews could have been the checking line, but as mentioned they scored the most.

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If you're building your team by looking at the NHL scoring leaders, you won't end up with a very balanced team. I'd take Bergeron, Richards, Nash, and Eric Staal over Duchene, RNH, Couture, and Seguin any day of the week - now, and probably in a year and a half from now, too. RNH and Seguin do project as 80+ forwards, but as scoring centers they'll be hard-pressed to move ahead of one of Crosby, Stamkos, Toews, Giroux, Tavares, maybe even Getzlaf if he bounces back. Seguin may get there based on his chemistry with Bergeron, but he's also a bit ahead of the curve with respect to his overall game because he's been so well-coached in his career so far.

Duchene lacks hockey sense and shouldn't be anywhere near this team. If we're desperate for scoring forwards, I'd take Spezza in a heartbeat over him. Couture is good, but Bergeron is much better in the role they'd be asked to play. I'll give you the 10 more points that Couture might have on Bergeron, but I'll take Bergeron's elite PKing, 60% faceoff rate, and Selke-caliber 2-way abilities.

And having both Toews and Giroux on your shutdown line? C'mon - those are two of our top four forwards, and would be a misuse of talent. I'm all for rolling out four balanced lines, but jeez...
Continuing from my response above, just take the best players. Of course you don't just take the 13 Canadian scoring leaders. But offense is and should be a huge part of the selection process.

Seguin can and does play wing. Giroux, Tavares and Stamkos can play the wing also and will probably be asked to do so because of the lack of quality natural wingers. If RNH is scoring 80+ points, you can't leave him off. Remember Bertuzzi, Draper and Maltby in 2006 in favour of Staal, Spezza and Crosby? This is what you guys are talking about and it makes no sense.

Duchene is speedy, good defensively, can play centre or wing. I'm projecting 70+ points. A fail to see how he would be a detriment to the team in a 13th forward role.

Couture might be much closer defensively to Bergeron in two years. This year's Bergeron... would be on my team. Don't know if he has another season like this though. He had a career year. We'll see.

Toews being misused in a shutdown role? Seriously? Do you know who he is and what he did in 2010? Toews is not top 4 offensively but is the #1 defensive forward, arguably better than 2011-12 Bergeron.

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08-09-2012, 12:27 AM
  #239
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Eberle is better than St. Louis right now. AINEC imo. No way MSL scores that much on Edmonton this year, he benefits from Stamkos.




C'mon. Eberle is a good young player, but hes not on the same level as St. Louis, who had an off year. I do believe that both will make the team though.

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08-09-2012, 12:30 AM
  #240
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What makes you think Couture, Duchene and Seguin wouldn't support the defense? They're better defensively than Doan, Perry and Kane, especially in two years. Doan will be 38, I can't believe you're considering him.

Physicality does NOT equate to defense.

If the tournament was on small ice, I would put a much bigger emphasis on physicality. Perry, J. Staal and Kane would be on my team over Skinner, Duchene, Couture. I'd even consider Kane over Skinner on big ice if Kane isn't too far off Skinner offensively.

Russia would not automatically win Gold if it was an All Star type game. Crosby, Tavares, Stamkos, Giroux, Eberle, ... > Malkin, Kovalchuk, Ovie. Like I said I'm projecting Duchene as a 70+ point forward, and he's the 13th forward. Russia doesn't come close to that kind of depth. Not even close.

Eberle was ppg in his 2nd season and will keep improving. Hockey Canada loves the guy. He's a lock especially considering he plays RW, a weak position for Canada. Eberle is better than St. Louis right now. AINEC imo. No way MSL scores that much on Edmonton this year, he benefits from Stamkos.

As for line numbering, who cares. By this logic, the Toews line was the 4th line in 2010. Yet Toews scored a whole bunch and won MVP. My Benn, Toews, Giroux line can play both a big offensive and defensive role. In 2010, they had the Crosby, Thornton, Getzlaf and Toews lines. Which are the 2 grind lines and which are the 2 scoring lines? Toews could have been the checking line, but as mentioned they scored the most.



Continuing from my response above, just take the best players. Of course you don't just take the 13 Canadian scoring leaders. But offense is and should be a huge part of the selection process.

Seguin can and does play wing. Giroux, Tavares and Stamkos can play the wing also and will probably be asked to do so because of the lack of quality natural wingers. If RNH is scoring 80+ points, you can't leave him off. Remember Bertuzzi, Draper and Maltby in 2006 in favour of Staal, Spezza and Crosby? This is what you guys are talking about and it makes no sense.

Duchene is speedy, good defensively, can play centre or wing. I'm projecting 70+ points. A fail to see how he would be a detriment to the team in a 13th forward role.

Couture might be much closer defensively to Bergeron in two years. This year's Bergeron... would be on my team. Don't know if he has another season like this though. He had a career year. We'll see.

Toews being misused in a shutdown role? Seriously? Do you know who he is and what he did in 2010? Toews is not top 4 offensively but is the #1 defensive forward, arguably better than 2011-12 Bergeron.
Perry,Kane and Doan are better defensively and not only that, but they are much more physical players and they bring offense too, especially Perry.
Doan is still pretty good offensively, a physical beast and good defensively. Seguin,Couture,Duchene don't come close to his defense or physicality. Also Doan brings leadership that others don't have and won't for a while.

St Louis doesn't benefit from Stamkos anymore than Stamkos benefits from him. St Louis is an elite skater which you obviously based your team mostly on. So why would you leave him off?? Eberle is quite slow considering his small size.

Toews would be in a defensive/checking role because he is elite defensively and yes he is good offensively too, but they have Crosby and in my opinion the #2 center should be Tavares so they take care of the more "offensive" roles. Also, Bergeron will be taking care of the 4th line center role. He may have disappointed in 2010, but the guy just won the Selke. He's elite defensively and incredible on faceoffs. He's clearly a better two-way player than Couture,Duchene,Seguin and those 3 won't even get to his level in a year and half defensively and likely not ever either.

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08-09-2012, 08:21 AM
  #241
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Eberle is better than St. Louis right now. AINEC imo. No way MSL scores that much on Edmonton this year, he benefits from Stamkos.

Continuing from my response above, just take the best players. Of course you don't just take the 13 Canadian scoring leaders. But offense is and should be a huge part of the selection process.

Seguin can and does play wing. Giroux, Tavares and Stamkos can play the wing also and will probably be asked to do so because of the lack of quality natural wingers. If RNH is scoring 80+ points, you can't leave him off. Remember Bertuzzi, Draper and Maltby in 2006 in favour of Staal, Spezza and Crosby? This is what you guys are talking about and it makes no sense.

Duchene is speedy, good defensively, can play centre or wing. I'm projecting 70+ points. A fail to see how he would be a detriment to the team in a 13th forward role.

Couture might be much closer defensively to Bergeron in two years. This year's Bergeron... would be on my team. Don't know if he has another season like this though. He had a career year. We'll see.

Toews being misused in a shutdown role? Seriously? Do you know who he is and what he did in 2010? Toews is not top 4 offensively but is the #1 defensive forward, arguably better than 2011-12 Bergeron.
Eberle's significantly better than MSL right now? C'mon...he's a good young player, but that's absurd.

My only point on Seguin and RNH is that they have significant work to do to crack this lineup. Seguin's had the benefit of great coaching and is already a pretty well-rounded forward for someone his age, but I'd like to see more consistency in 2012-2013 before I pencil him into the lineup (probably at wing). RNH, simply put, needs to reach an elite level of scoring and bulk up a bit. I'll maintain that if he gets to 80+ points this coming year and ramps up a bit more in the first half of '13-'14, then we can't leave him off the team - we need to find room for him. Keep in mind though that in December 2009 Stamkos was at or near the top of the goal scoring leaders and Yzerman didn't touch him, so that should give you an indication as to how he feels about young, one-dimensional scoring forwards.

Couture has a lot of work to do to reach the level that Bergeron is at (and probably will still be at in 2014). He's still fairly young and at the top of his game, and his progression as a 2-way forward post-concussion has been outstanding. He's got a winner's mentality too, which can't be taught. I still have Couture a few spots lower on the depth chart, below J. Staal, M. Richards, and obviously Bergeron when it comes to 2-way forwards that we'll want anchoring our 4th line, and its hard to say if he's really on anyone's radar at this point.

Of course I know what Toews did in 2010; my reference is to you having both him and Giroux on a "shutdown line", which I still hold as being a misuse of talent. Toews went in to the 2010 tournament as our 13th forward, a young guy that could do everything well - PK, faceoffs, shootouts, a solid overall forward (despite his young age) that could play on any line. Since then he's won a Conn Smythe and established himself as an elite 70-pt 2-way forward. I'd argue that he's in or very close to our top-4 offensively now (Crosby, Stamkos, Giroux, Toews, St. Louis). I'd be happy to have him on a shutdown line again in 2014, but Giroux definitely belongs on a scoring line. Both will play big minutes regardless.

And, besides, Toews didn't do it all himself in 2010 - he had Richards and Nash on his line, along with Niedermayer and Weber on the back-end. I have Richards and Nash returning in 2014; if you're such a big fan of what that line accomplished, how come you don't? You claim that we should bring the best players...well, Richards and Nash are certainly better hockey players and can help Canada more than Duchene, Kane, Couture, etc.

Maltby wasn't on the 2006 team. Bertuzzi was a stupid inclusion by Gretzky, especially on the international ice, and you'll hear no arguments from me that he shouldn't have been there. Draper was our best defensive forward at the time and his selection wasn't really questioned or challenged, despite him being about a 40 point player. What was stupid was Quinn playing him at LW with Sakic and Iginla (thus giving him too much ice time as a 1st liner). Doan and Smyth were poor selections too - they put in the effort but accomplished nothing. And by the way, I'm not advocating for Doan on this team - he's far, far off my radar (even Duchene might be ahead of him). There are no equivalent players on my projected 2014 team. The guys I'll be counting on to kill penalties and carry more of the defensive burden - Bergeron, Richards, Nash, maybe Toews if necessary, are elite 70 point forwards that aren't necessarily specialists; they can play on any line or in any role.

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08-09-2012, 08:27 AM
  #242
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Eberle's significantly better than MSL right now? C'mon...he's a good young player, but that's absurd.

My only point on Seguin and RNH is that they have significant work to do to crack this lineup. Seguin's had the benefit of great coaching and is already a pretty well-rounded forward for someone his age, but I'd like to see more consistency in 2012-2013 before I pencil him into the lineup (probably at wing). RNH, simply put, needs to reach an elite level of scoring and bulk up a bit. I'll maintain that if he gets to 80+ points this coming year and ramps up a bit more in the first half of '13-'14, then we can't leave him off the team - we need to find room for him. Keep in mind though that in December 2009 Stamkos was at or near the top of the goal scoring leaders and Yzerman didn't touch him, so that should give you an indication as to how he feels about young, one-dimensional scoring forwards.

Couture has a lot of work to do to reach the level that Bergeron is at (and probably will still be at in 2014). He's still fairly young and at the top of his game, and his progression as a 2-way forward post-concussion has been outstanding. He's got a winner's mentality too, which can't be taught. I still have Couture a few spots lower on the depth chart, below J. Staal, M. Richards, and obviously Bergeron when it comes to 2-way forwards that we'll want anchoring our 4th line, and its hard to say if he's really on anyone's radar at this point.

Of course I know what Toews did in 2010; my reference is to you having both him and Giroux on a "shutdown line", which I still hold as being a misuse of talent. Toews went in to the 2010 tournament as our 13th forward, a young guy that could do everything well - PK, faceoffs, shootouts, a solid overall forward (despite his young age) that could play on any line. Since then he's won a Conn Smythe and established himself as an elite 70-pt 2-way forward. I'd argue that he's in or very close to our top-4 offensively now (Crosby, Stamkos, Giroux, Toews, St. Louis). I'd be happy to have him on a shutdown line again in 2014, but Giroux definitely belongs on a scoring line. Both will play big minutes regardless.

And, besides, Toews didn't do it all himself in 2010 - he had Richards and Nash on his line, along with Niedermayer and Weber on the back-end. I have Richards and Nash returning in 2014; if you're such a big fan of what that line accomplished, how come you don't? You claim that we should bring the best players...well, Richards and Nash are certainly better hockey players and can help Canada more than Duchene, Kane, Couture, etc.

Maltby wasn't on the 2006 team. Bertuzzi was a stupid inclusion by Gretzky, especially on the international ice, and you'll hear no arguments from me that he shouldn't have been there. Draper was our best defensive forward at the time and his selection wasn't really questioned or challenged, despite him being about a 40 point player. What was stupid was Quinn playing him at LW with Sakic and Iginla (thus giving him too much ice time as a 1st liner). Doan and Smyth were poor selections too - they put in the effort but accomplished nothing. And by the way, I'm not advocating for Doan on this team - he's far, far off my radar (even Duchene might be ahead of him). There are no equivalent players on my projected 2014 team. The guys I'll be counting on to kill penalties and carry more of the defensive burden - Bergeron, Richards, Nash, maybe Toews if necessary, are elite 70 point forwards that aren't necessarily specialists; they can play on any line or in any role.
You are right on the money! I agree 100%

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08-09-2012, 08:46 AM
  #243
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Perry,Kane and Doan are better defensively and not only that, but they are much more physical players and they bring offense too, especially Perry.
Doan is still pretty good offensively, a physical beast and good defensively. Seguin,Couture,Duchene don't come close to his defense or physicality. Also Doan brings leadership that others don't have and won't for a while.

St Louis doesn't benefit from Stamkos anymore than Stamkos benefits from him. St Louis is an elite skater which you obviously based your team mostly on. So why would you leave him off?? Eberle is quite slow considering his small size.

Toews would be in a defensive/checking role because he is elite defensively and yes he is good offensively too, but they have Crosby and in my opinion the #2 center should be Tavares so they take care of the more "offensive" roles. Also, Bergeron will be taking care of the 4th line center role. He may have disappointed in 2010, but the guy just won the Selke. He's elite defensively and incredible on faceoffs. He's clearly a better two-way player than Couture,Duchene,Seguin and those 3 won't even get to his level in a year and half defensively and likely not ever either.
I agree with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, but there's no way Doan should be on this team. He's a mucker with limited offensive skill in the context of the Olympics. We have better muckers (Richards, Bergeron, Perry come to mind), better physical forwards (Richards, Nash, maybe Benn or Neal if they make the roster) to the extent that that's important on the international ice, and sufficient leadership. There would essentially be one roster spot for him - 4th line RW; he'd be a liability on any other line. We need 13 forwards who can all play a variety of roles and positions, of course acknowledging that some guys are meant for scoring roles, and others are meant for more 2-way roles. I think he'd be a waste of a roster space, TBH.

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08-09-2012, 09:51 AM
  #244
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Yeah I can't see Doan there at all.

As much as I like the guy I don't see how he get's even a sniff of being on our 2014 team.

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08-09-2012, 11:07 AM
  #245
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C'mon, they gave them two even-strength shifts together, that should have been plenty of time for them to get re-acquainted and re-ignite that old spark after not having played together for a few weeks since the spring of 2007.

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08-09-2012, 11:44 AM
  #246
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Tavares-Crosby-Perry
Nash-Stamkos-Giroux
Toews-E.Staal-Seguin
Hall-RNH-Eberle
Getzlaf

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Pietrangelo-Doughty
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08-09-2012, 02:40 PM
  #247
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Tavares-Crosby-Perry
Nash-Stamkos-Giroux
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Hall-RNH-Eberle
Getzlaf

Letang-Weber
Pietrangelo-Doughty
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Subban

Luongo
Price
Holtby
Yikes...hopefully he's not our starter.

Not sold on Getzlaf being suited for a 13th forward role. He's not a PKer, is only average on faceoffs, doesn't play the wing, and probably can't be counted on to play a more defensive-oriented role - so overall he's not very versatile. I hope he bounces back to his 2010 form, and if he does, he'd be in my top-9. Plus, I don't think he has the attitude necessary for a 13th forward role; he's always seemed like a bit of a diva to me (but perhaps baldness = maturity).

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08-09-2012, 05:37 PM
  #248
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Perry,Kane and Doan are better defensively and not only that, but they are much more physical players and they bring offense too, especially Perry.
Doan is still pretty good offensively, a physical beast and good defensively. Seguin,Couture,Duchene don't come close to his defense or physicality. Also Doan brings leadership that others don't have and won't for a while.
I disagree they're that better defensively. IMO you're discriminating against them based on their youth, and putting putting way too much emphasis on physical play for defense. Wingers don't need to be physical to be good defensively.

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St Louis doesn't benefit from Stamkos anymore than Stamkos benefits from him. St Louis is an elite skater which you obviously based your team mostly on. So why would you leave him off?? Eberle is quite slow considering his small size.
St. Louis playing with Stamkos padded his stats, there's no way around it. 60 goals 100 points, come on.

Eberle isn't slow.

MSL will 39 in 2014. I don't think he'll be ppg even if still playing with Stamkos. Eberle could easily be at 80-90 points and MSL at 50-60 points. Easy decision here.

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Toews would be in a defensive/checking role because he is elite defensively and yes he is good offensively too, but they have Crosby and in my opinion the #2 center should be Tavares so they take care of the more "offensive" roles. Also, Bergeron will be taking care of the 4th line center role. He may have disappointed in 2010, but the guy just won the Selke. He's elite defensively and incredible on faceoffs. He's clearly a better two-way player than Couture,Duchene,Seguin and those 3 won't even get to his level in a year and half defensively and likely not ever either.
Like I said if Bergeon is at the same level as this year, he should be there. However I think it was a career year and the 3 bolded will be clearly better offensively and not as far off defensively as you think.

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Eberle's significantly better than MSL right now? C'mon...he's a good young player, but that's absurd.
Switch MSL and Eberle this year. No way MSL comes close to Eberle's 76 points because:
1-No Stamkos
2-Very imited ice time for Oiler stars (he would play less than in TB)
3-RNH and Hall missed some time this year

Eberle was the 3rd most productive player 5-on-5 this season (points/ice time). Behind Crosby and Malkin. Yes ahead of Stamkos.

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My only point on Seguin and RNH is that they have significant work to do to crack this lineup. Seguin's had the benefit of great coaching and is already a pretty well-rounded forward for someone his age, but I'd like to see more consistency in 2012-2013 before I pencil him into the lineup (probably at wing). RNH, simply put, needs to reach an elite level of scoring and bulk up a bit. I'll maintain that if he gets to 80+ points this coming year and ramps up a bit more in the first half of '13-'14, then we can't leave him off the team - we need to find room for him. Keep in mind though that in December 2009 Stamkos was at or near the top of the goal scoring leaders and Yzerman didn't touch him, so that should give you an indication as to how he feels about young, one-dimensional scoring forwards.
But RNH isn't one dimensional and has drawn comparisons to Datsyuk. Obviously he needs to improve from his current form, but I see no reason why he wouldn't.

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Couture has a lot of work to do to reach the level that Bergeron is at (and probably will still be at in 2014). He's still fairly young and at the top of his game, and his progression as a 2-way forward post-concussion has been outstanding. He's got a winner's mentality too, which can't be taught. I still have Couture a few spots lower on the depth chart, below J. Staal, M. Richards, and obviously Bergeron when it comes to 2-way forwards that we'll want anchoring our 4th line, and its hard to say if he's really on anyone's radar at this point.
Couture is better offensively than everyone in that bunch though, and is definitely no slouch defensively. Imagine where he'll be in 2 years.

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Of course I know what Toews did in 2010; my reference is to you having both him and Giroux on a "shutdown line", which I still hold as being a misuse of talent. Toews went in to the 2010 tournament as our 13th forward, a young guy that could do everything well - PK, faceoffs, shootouts, a solid overall forward (despite his young age) that could play on any line. Since then he's won a Conn Smythe and established himself as an elite 70-pt 2-way forward. I'd argue that he's in or very close to our top-4 offensively now (Crosby, Stamkos, Giroux, Toews, St. Louis). I'd be happy to have him on a shutdown line again in 2014, but Giroux definitely belongs on a scoring line. Both will play big minutes regardless.

And, besides, Toews didn't do it all himself in 2010 - he had Richards and Nash on his line, along with Niedermayer and Weber on the back-end. I have Richards and Nash returning in 2014; if you're such a big fan of what that line accomplished, how come you don't? You claim that we should bring the best players...well, Richards and Nash are certainly better hockey players and can help Canada more than Duchene, Kane, Couture, etc.
MSL won't be anywhere near the top 4 offensively in 2014. Come on. Crosby, Giroux, Stamkos, Tavares, Eberle is the top 5.

Richards isn't good enough offensively. They're are more talented and swifter skaters available.

Nash is on the bubble, 14/15th forward right now. If Skinner, Duchene, Couture, Seguin, RNH, Hall, don't improve enough I would put Nash in there.

Nash proved himself as a defensive forward DURING that tournament.

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Maltby wasn't on the 2006 team. Bertuzzi was a stupid inclusion by Gretzky, especially on the international ice, and you'll hear no arguments from me that he shouldn't have been there. Draper was our best defensive forward at the time and his selection wasn't really questioned or challenged, despite him being about a 40 point player. What was stupid was Quinn playing him at LW with Sakic and Iginla (thus giving him too much ice time as a 1st liner). Doan and Smyth were poor selections too - they put in the effort but accomplished nothing. And by the way, I'm not advocating for Doan on this team - he's far, far off my radar (even Duchene might be ahead of him). There are no equivalent players on my projected 2014 team. The guys I'll be counting on to kill penalties and carry more of the defensive burden - Bergeron, Richards, Nash, maybe Toews if necessary, are elite 70 point forwards that aren't necessarily specialists; they can play on any line or in any role.
The only thing I disagree with is that Begeron, Richards and Nash are 70 point forwards. They're not anymore and I think my guys have a better shot at than them.

Also, before 2010, was Nash considered a good two-way player and penalty killer? NO.

Was Bergeron (same age as Couture will be in 2014) considered an elite defensive forward? At least not more than Couture currently is.

Some guys proved themselves at the Olympics (or after in Bergeron's case - Selke). Seguin and Couture are these types of guys that could break out and reinforce their rep as two-way players.

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08-09-2012, 07:55 PM
  #249
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I agree with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, but there's no way Doan should be on this team. He's a mucker with limited offensive skill in the context of the Olympics. We have better muckers (Richards, Bergeron, Perry come to mind), better physical forwards (Richards, Nash, maybe Benn or Neal if they make the roster) to the extent that that's important on the international ice, and sufficient leadership. There would essentially be one roster spot for him - 4th line RW; he'd be a liability on any other line. We need 13 forwards who can all play a variety of roles and positions, of course acknowledging that some guys are meant for scoring roles, and others are meant for more 2-way roles. I think he'd be a waste of a roster space, TBH.
Doan may not be in his prime, but with that, he brings a lot of leadership and he is 1 of the better defensively responsable wingers. Not many touch his physicality either. He was 1 of the reasons Phoenix went far. Smith was the #1 reason, but Doan was the 2nd biggest reason in my opinion. When playing the U.S., we'll be playing against Brown,Callahan,Backes etc. Doan can match, or atleast come close to them physically and defensively. Guys like Duchene,Seguin,Couture would get pushed around by them easily. I wouldn't put Doan in a big role, it'd simply be the 4th line and I think he can do that job better than most.

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08-09-2012, 08:14 PM
  #250
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Doan may not be in his prime, but with that, he brings a lot of leadership and he is 1 of the better defensively responsable wingers. Not many touch his physicality either. He was 1 of the reasons Phoenix went far. Smith was the #1 reason, but Doan was the 2nd biggest reason in my opinion. When playing the U.S., we'll be playing against Brown,Callahan,Backes etc. Doan can match, or atleast come close to them physically and defensively. Guys like Duchene,Seguin,Couture would get pushed around by them easily. I wouldn't put Doan in a big role, it'd simply be the 4th line and I think he can do that job better than most.
You realize he'd be 37 years old ..

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