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2014 - Canada Roster Discussion (Part III)

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Old
01-07-2013, 03:17 PM
  #776
JackSlater
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
Agree completely. The biggest question mark for me at this point is whether Getzlaf can return to his previous form; if he does, and proves that 2011-2012 was an aberration, it'll be hard for Yzerman to leave him off given his performance in 2010 (granted, that was on NHL-sized ice) and his ability to simply take over games when he's "on". I'm not sure who'd I'd chop in that scenario, but I'd probably lean towards Staal. The speed of Hall and Seguin on the wings on the international ice is certainly hard to pass up.
Getzlaf is definitely interesting. If he's back to being over one ppg this year and early next season he will get a long look, and his play in 2010 certainly helps. Still, international ice exacerbates the issue of his skating, and he can't really be expected to play wing at this level. Canada is clearly loaded with centres, even more than in 2010 really, which gives more versatile skaters like Staal a better chance in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Only thing that will hurt Canada is if they decide to play politics and bring along elder statesman like Thornton and Iginla who have "paid their dues" over speedier, younger guys who would excel more on the big ice.
True, it is a potential issue. I doubt that there is much love for Thornton, but Iginla will probably be given every opportunity to make the team. If he's still scoring 30+ goals without a centre then it won't be a travesty, but there are probably better options. It will be interesting to see if they are overly loyal to the 2010 guys.

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01-07-2013, 03:23 PM
  #777
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Originally Posted by Darth Handsome View Post
I'm so confused.
Same here; to clarify:

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Originally Posted by Darth Handsome View Post
Call me crazy but I don't think we even need a "shutdown line", everyone will have to be responsible defensively. We can roll four offensive lines & play in the opposition's end the whole friggin game. Above all else, Canada's advantage has always been depth. I think we should use it.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
Canada has never won using that approach; in fact, I can't remember if we've ever actually used that approach at the senior or junior level.
To which I replied:
"Because Hockey Canada likes to overthink their rosters, not because it doesn't work."

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I'll agree with you that while we don't need a pure, defense-only shutdown line (thinking of guys like Maltby and Draper, 40-point forwards who have made Team Canada in the past), we do need 3-4 forwards who can be looked to to kill penalties, match up effectively against the opposition's best lines, play physical,and have the ability to win key faceoffs. Canada's depth allows us to select players like Toews, Richards, Nash, E. Staal, Bergeron, and probably a few others than can do this, and also present enough of an offensive threat to keep our opponents honest.

Our most effective line from this perspective in 2010 was Toews-Richards-Nash; all three can be used in a "shutdown" role, or can be slotted in on the scoring lines. Versatility is key.
Agreed: I was arguing semantics and looked at this post from an incorrect perspective, so forget it.

Also: I am not a Staal or Nash fan at this point in time.

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You're saying the same thing I am. We don't need a "shutdown line", we should utilize our depth. We have guys who can score goals & also kill penalties. In '87, we asked Gilmour, Hawerchuk & Sutter to do these things. Hardly a "shutdown line".
Agreed.

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01-07-2013, 03:28 PM
  #778
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Only thing that will hurt Canada is if they decide to play politics and bring along elder statesman like Thornton and Iginla who have "paid their dues" over speedier, younger guys who would excel more on the big ice.
Agreed, although I think Iginla has a shot to make it (as he should)

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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
Our depth allows us to take guys like Toews, Staal, and Nash and use them in bottom six, 2-way roles. On most teams they'd probably play in the top six; Toews may even by #1C on some teams (i.e., the U.S), but he's #3C on Canada.
Yes, my bad, I took that the wrong way. Although Toews is a second-line centre on my team.

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01-07-2013, 03:32 PM
  #779
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Getzlaf is definitely interesting. If he's back to being over one ppg this year and early next season he will get a long look, and his play in 2010 certainly helps. Still, international ice exacerbates the issue of his skating, and he can't really be expected to play wing at this level. Canada is clearly loaded with centres, even more than in 2010 really, which gives more versatile skaters like Staal a better chance in my opinion.
Agreed: He has a shot, and he'll make it if he's looking okay this season, imo. Put him with Perry on the third-line if he's back to form.

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01-07-2013, 03:46 PM
  #780
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Although Toews is a second-line centre on my team.
See, this is why I think Canada should roll four lines. There are no "top six, bottom six". We have a "top-twelve". We have the horses to load up four lines, I think we should do it. We're deep enough to play 12 guys who are all capable of playing any role. No one is going to convince me that Crosby or Giroux are incapable of killing penalties, or that Toews or Nash or Staal can't score on the PP.

There is no need for an "Offensive/defensive line" mentality. Everyone needs to commit to team defence, and everyone should be free to be creative on offence. We have enough fire power to spread it out over four lines and I think that's the way this team should be chosen. If everyone buys in, we shouldn't have any problems.

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01-07-2013, 03:50 PM
  #781
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Only thing that will hurt Canada is if they decide to play politics and bring along elder statesman like Thornton and Iginla who have "paid their dues" over speedier, younger guys who would excel more on the big ice.
Stevie Y doesn't strike me as the kind of the guy that would get caught up in this. Remember that he was passed over for Canada Cup roster spots in '87 and '91 ('91 being the most egregious example) by Mike Keenan, in favour of Keenan faves like Sutter, Graham, Tocchet, and a few others. In addition, I'd have to believe that Thornton and Iginla, being the professionals that they are, would gracefully decline a roster spot if they felt they couldn't serve the team to the best of their abilities (much like Yzerman himself did in 2006, I believe).

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01-07-2013, 03:56 PM
  #782
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See, this is why I think Canada should roll four lines. There are no "top six, bottom six". We have a "top-twelve". We have the horses to load up four lines, I think we should do it. We're deep enough to play 12 guys who are all capable of playing any role. No one is going to convince me that Crosby or Giroux are incapable of killing penalties, or that Toews or Nash or Staal can't score on the PP.

There is no need for an "Offensive/defensive line" mentality. Everyone needs to commit to team defence, and everyone should be free to be creative on offence. We have enough fire power to spread it out over four lines and I think that's the way this team should be chosen. If everyone buys in, we shouldn't have any problems.
I agree completely: Just take the best 20+ guys, but Hockey Canada doesn't seem to understand this (though I think Yzerman does).

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01-07-2013, 03:57 PM
  #783
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
Stevie Y doesn't strike me as the kind of the guy that would get caught up in this. Remember that he was passed over for Canada Cup roster spots in '87 and '91 ('91 being the most egregious example) by Mike Keenan, in favour of Keenan faves like Sutter, Graham, Tocchet, and a few others. In addition, I'd have to believe that Thornton and Iginla, being the professionals that they are, would gracefully decline a roster spot if they felt they couldn't serve the team to the best of their abilities (much like Yzerman himself did in 2006, I believe).
He wasn't on the 04 World Cup team, either. Did he remove himself? I didn't know that.

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01-07-2013, 04:04 PM
  #784
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See, this is why I think Canada should roll four lines. There are no "top six, bottom six". We have a "top-twelve". We have the horses to load up four lines, I think we should do it. We're deep enough to play 12 guys who are all capable of playing any role. No one is going to convince me that Crosby or Giroux are incapable of killing penalties, or that Toews or Nash or Staal can't score on the PP.

There is no need for an "Offensive/defensive line" mentality. Everyone needs to commit to team defence, and everyone should be free to be creative on offence. We have enough fire power to spread it out over four lines and I think that's the way this team should be chosen. If everyone buys in, we shouldn't have any problems.
In theory I agree with you, and like in Vancouver Babcock (assuming he's the coach, again) will roll four fairly-balanced lines. Ice time was pretty evenly dispersed amongst the forward group in 2010, with Bergeron as the 13th forward being the low man. But, the issue is that while guys like Crosby/Giroux CAN kill penalties, they SHOULDN'T on this team - their time on ice is better served being spent at ES or on the PP. Power-play time is also heavily dependent on chemistry amongst the unit, which is why the Sharks trio + Boyle sucked up a lot of PP ice time in 2010.

So I think we'll end up seeing your version of the "four-line, 12-man" forward group, but players will need to have roles on this team, and with Babcock liking to play matchups don't be surprised to see a 2-way / shutdown line akin to the Toews-Nash-Richards line of 2010 take shape. Plus, any line with Bergeron on it isn't exactly going to be the target of the opposition's best defensive players.

All in all players have strengths and weaknesses and the mark of a good coach is putting his players in a position for them to succeed (see: Spott, Steve, as an example of how NOT to do this).

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01-07-2013, 04:06 PM
  #785
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He wasn't on the 04 World Cup team, either. Did he remove himself? I didn't know that.
He was legitimately injured in 2004, IIRC (and replaced by Lecavalier), but in '06 Gretzky, being the loyal Executive GM that he was, invited him purely out of courtesy.

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01-07-2013, 04:11 PM
  #786
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I really don't see the lineup changing much other than niedermayer and morrow out...giroux and some other d-man in. prongers obviously a question mark..but i think he'll be back

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01-07-2013, 04:40 PM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Darth Handsome View Post
See, this is why I think Canada should roll four lines. There are no "top six, bottom six". We have a "top-twelve". We have the horses to load up four lines, I think we should do it. We're deep enough to play 12 guys who are all capable of playing any role. No one is going to convince me that Crosby or Giroux are incapable of killing penalties, or that Toews or Nash or Staal can't score on the PP.

There is no need for an "Offensive/defensive line" mentality. Everyone needs to commit to team defence, and everyone should be free to be creative on offence. We have enough fire power to spread it out over four lines and I think that's the way this team should be chosen. If everyone buys in, we shouldn't have any problems.
No one disagrees with you. There aren't any posters on here looking for defensive role players to make the team, and everyone will expect each line to score. Look at Toews leading the team in scoring from the third line in 2010. Every forward on Canada should be expected to contribute both offensively and defensively.

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01-07-2013, 05:28 PM
  #788
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I'll take a stab at it...

E. Staal(A)-Crosby (C)-Eberle
Seguin-Stamkos-Giroux
Richards-Toews(A)-Nash
Skinner-Tavares-Benn/Sharp
Bergeron


Doughty-Keith
Letang-Weber(A)
Pietrangelo-M. Staal
Myers

Price
Luongo
Fleury

Spezza or Iginla might force their way into the forward line up. If so, then I'd give Iggy the C and move Tavares on the wing for Spezza taking out the Benn/Sharp scenario. And Babcock or Sutter as head coach.

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01-07-2013, 06:06 PM
  #789
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
I'll take a stab at it...

E. Staal(A)-Crosby (C)-Eberle
Seguin-Stamkos-Giroux
Richards-Toews(A)-Nash
Skinner-Tavares-Benn/Sharp
Bergeron


Doughty-Keith
Letang-Weber(A)
Pietrangelo-M. Staal
Myers

Price
Luongo
Fleury

Spezza or Iginla might force their way into the forward line up. If so, then I'd give Iggy the C and move Tavares on the wing for Spezza taking out the Benn/Sharp scenario. And Babcock or Sutter as head coach.
What about Taylor Hall? Especially over Skinner and Sharp, even Seguin.

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01-07-2013, 06:13 PM
  #790
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Getzlaf is definitely interesting. If he's back to being over one ppg this year and early next season he will get a long look, and his play in 2010 certainly helps. Still, international ice exacerbates the issue of his skating, and he can't really be expected to play wing at this level. Canada is clearly loaded with centres, even more than in 2010 really, which gives more versatile skaters like Staal a better chance in my opinion.



True, it is a potential issue. I doubt that there is much love for Thornton, but Iginla will probably be given every opportunity to make the team. If he's still scoring 30+ goals without a centre then it won't be a travesty, but there are probably better options. It will be interesting to see if they are overly loyal to the 2010 guys.
It has been mentioned one of the problems for the recent junior team was too many players playing out of position, and as Yzerman said, Vancouver only 1 player E. Staal was playing out of position. (Although I have a difficult time believing that) If Getzlaf is not in the Top 8 of centers by the time next Christmas rolls around, then leave him off... We don't need his 2010 experience, we have enough returning players with experience. One poster early posted a 4th line of Benn Getzlaf Perry all poor skaters...does skating, the ability to skate well ever enter the equation for some Canadians?

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01-07-2013, 06:21 PM
  #791
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What about Taylor Hall? Especially over Skinner and Sharp, even Seguin.
Injured. If he has a consistent year I'd change my mind, but Tavares has shown to have chemistry with Skinner and Sharp at the International level. I can't remember if Hall has shown me anything like that. And I consider Seguin more valuable to Team Canada than Hall. I don't like having two pieces from the second last place team in the league last year on Team Canada, but there is no way I can argue against Eberle.


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01-07-2013, 08:07 PM
  #792
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Injured. If he has a consistent year I'd change my mind, but Tavares has shown to have chemistry with Skinner and Sharp at the International level. I can't remember if Hall has shown me anything like that. And I consider Seguin more valuable to Team Canada than Hall. I don't like having two pieces from the second last place team in the league last year on Team Canada, but there is no way I can argue against Eberle.
Hall obviously has great chemistry with Eberle and they play well with Tavares

I'm really hoping for a Hall-Tavares-Eberle scoring line in Sochi.

Fair enough on the Seguin statement but I feel like Halls pre-exsisting chemistry with Eberle, and the fact that he's a Natural LW (where you have Seguin who is a natural center, but playing RW in the bigs on the LW on team canada?) would make him more valuable to TC.

Believe me, the Oilers struggles have little to nothing to do with Taylor Hall or Jordan Eberle.

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01-07-2013, 08:41 PM
  #793
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After reading some of these posts I just had to come out of my retirement. Let me start by saying that 80% of the people on this board don't know what they are saying. I predicted a 4 th place for team Canada at this years wjc. I remind you all.

Now, anyone who thinks Thornton and iginla even Oshie ( even if he were Canadian ) are going to make team Canada for next Olympics is dreaming in 3d. There are only a few locks on this team and Steve yzerman and his gang are not going to take an old slow group to Russia. The veterans on this team will be aged 29-30. There will be some youngster but it won't be RNH as he is not ready.

Locks at forward
Crosby
Toews
Stamkos

Will fight for remaining in this order
Nash
Getzlaf
Seguin
Bergeron
Perry
Eric Staal
Richards
Tavares
Jordan Staal
Sharp
Giroux
Hall

Locks
Doughty-
Keith
Weber


Fight for the last 4 spots

Letang
Staal
Pietrangelo
Phaneuf
Subban
Bouwmeester
Myers

Starter
Carey Price

Backup
Roberto Luongo
Cam Ward

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01-07-2013, 08:46 PM
  #794
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
Hall obviously has great chemistry with Eberle and they play well with Tavares

I'm really hoping for a Hall-Tavares-Eberle scoring line in Sochi.

Fair enough on the Seguin statement but I feel like Halls pre-exsisting chemistry with Eberle, and the fact that he's a Natural LW (where you have Seguin who is a natural center, but playing RW in the bigs on the LW on team canada?) would make him more valuable to TC.

Believe me, the Oilers struggles have little to nothing to do with Taylor Hall or Jordan Eberle.
I don't know if you watched the world championships, but Tavares has a lot more chemistry with Skinner then he does with Eberle and Tavares has never even played with Hall. I don't think Hall has done enough in these past few years to warrant a spot with Team Canada...at least not at the elite level. I know his juniour career he was a double mem cup MVP, but all these other guys have accomplished or have been successful. We don't need another scorer, we have enough. I only see Hall as an asset if he is willing to play another role.

And in terms of Seguin, I was merely just fitting him into a spot in which I think Giroux and Stamkos go together. You can switch Giroux and Seguin's positions if you want because I'm sure Giroux is versatile.

BTW: Last time Team Canada had Mike Richards on the wing, I'm pretty sure they couldn't care less if you are a natural centre or not. You have to adapt to the roles you are being given.


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01-07-2013, 08:49 PM
  #795
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After reading some of these posts I just had to come out of my retirement. Let me start by saying that 80% of the people on this board don't know what they are saying. I predicted a 4 th place for team Canada at this years wjc. I remind you all.

Now, anyone who thinks Thornton and iginla even Oshie ( even if he were Canadian ) are going to make team Canada for next Olympics is dreaming in 3d. There are only a few locks on this team and Steve yzerman and his gang are not going to take an old slow group to Russia. The veterans on this team will be aged 29-30. There will be some youngster but it won't be RNH as he is not ready.

Locks at forward
Crosby
Toews
Stamkos

Will fight for remaining in this order
Nash
Getzlaf
Seguin
Bergeron
Perry
Eric Staal
Richards
Tavares
Jordan Staal
Sharp
Giroux
Hall

Locks
Doughty-
Keith
Weber


Fight for the last 4 spots

Letang
Staal
Pietrangelo
Phaneuf
Subban
Bouwmeester
Myers

Starter
Carey Price

Backup
Roberto Luongo
Cam Ward
Forgot Skinner and Eberle and you might as well add Eberle as a lock. Kane might be in the running too.
Forgetting Eberle on Team Canada is kinda a grievous error after just posting that 80% of the posters here have no idea what they're talking about


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01-07-2013, 09:17 PM
  #796
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Forgot Skinner and Eberle and you might as well add Eberle as a lock. Kane might be in the running too.
Forgetting Eberle on Team Canada is kinda a grievous error after just posting that 80% of the posters here have no idea what they're talking about
There you go. Eberle skinner and Kane will not make it and even though I put down Hall he probably won't either. Hall is my dark horse.

You see you made me come out of retirement again. Need I remind you I picked Canada 4th this year at wjc???

80%

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01-07-2013, 09:45 PM
  #797
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There you go. Eberle skinner and Kane will not make it and even though I put down Hall he probably won't either. Hall is my dark horse.

You see you made me come out of retirement again. Need I remind you I picked Canada 4th this year at wjc???

80%
So what? Do you want me to believe you're psychic? You're going to have a pretty tough time selling that to me when the world junior hero who was in the top 15 in the league in scoring last year doesn't even earn a consideration for you.

I wonder if you'll be repeating your incredible prediction about the WJC when Eberle is in the lineup in 2014.


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01-07-2013, 09:58 PM
  #798
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There you go. Eberle skinner and Kane will not make it and even though I put down Hall he probably won't either. Hall is my dark horse.

You see you made me come out of retirement again. Need I remind you I picked Canada 4th this year at wjc???

80%
I'm over 80% percent sure that you'll be wrong about Eberle.

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01-07-2013, 10:05 PM
  #799
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So what? Do you want me to believe you're psychic? You're going to have a pretty tough time selling that to me when the world junior hero who was in the top 15 in the league in scoring last year doesn't even earn a consideration for you.

I wonder if you'll be repeating your incredible prediction about the WJC when Eberle is in the lineup in 2014.
See all you 80% ers next year. I'll be back next year with my new predictionsss.
Off to temporary retirement, have fun with your little predictions that will be way off.

So long 80% ers.

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01-07-2013, 10:22 PM
  #800
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After reading some of these posts I just had to come out of my retirement. Let me start by saying that 80% of the people on this board don't know what they are saying. I predicted a 4 th place for team Canada at this years wjc. I remind you all.

Now, anyone who thinks Thornton and iginla even Oshie ( even if he were Canadian ) are going to make team Canada for next Olympics is dreaming in 3d. There are only a few locks on this team and Steve yzerman and his gang are not going to take an old slow group to Russia. The veterans on this team will be aged 29-30. There will be some youngster but it won't be RNH as he is not ready.

Locks at forward
Crosby
Toews
Stamkos

Will fight for remaining in this order
Nash
Getzlaf
Seguin
Bergeron
Perry
Eric Staal
Richards
Tavares
Jordan Staal
Sharp
Giroux
Hall

Locks
Doughty-
Keith
Weber


Fight for the last 4 spots

Letang
Staal
Pietrangelo
Phaneuf
Subban
Bouwmeester
Myers

Starter
Carey Price

Backup
Roberto Luongo
Cam Ward
Giroux isn't a lock???! This post is ludicrous. Giroux, Eberle, Tavares, and Pietrangelo will all be there if healthy. Giordano will be fighting for a spot for damn sure but my list was the only one to have him.

Truth is guy, a lot of people knew that Team Canada was going to be too soft at the WJC's. You called one obvious thing right, it doesn't make you special.

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