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2014 - Canada Roster Discussion (Part III)

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08-07-2012, 11:40 PM
  #201
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I wonder why so many people are breaking up the Nash-Richards-Toews line that dominated in Vancouver. They literally out competed every line they faced in the medal round and won puck battle after puck battle. They out-worked, neutralized, and out-scored the dangerous Ovechkin-Malkin-Semin line in QF with a tenacious back check and generated numerous scoring chances against the Americans in the gold medal game. That line represented the desire to win and puck possession hockey Babcock wanted Team Canada to play all tournament.

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08-08-2012, 01:21 AM
  #202
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Well I like 5/6 of your d-men, however Subban wouldn't touch my Team Canada.
That wasn't my problem with your team anyways.

At this point Iginla, Getzlaf,Staal and Nash aren't on my team. I have young players too, but they are physically,offensively and defensively gifted. The likes of Evander Kane and Jamie Benn. I do know you did atleast include Benn on your team, but put him in the wrong role.

I do realize the young players will get better and as I said i have a few of my own young players making it. If RNH,Hall,Eberle were to make Team Canada, it'll be in a scoring line(top 6 role) and not the checking line. I don't see any of them making it though(maybe Eberle to put in place of St Lous if he regresses). I prefer Tavares and Stamkos to be on the 2nd line so that takes out Hall and RNH's spots. Neal-Crosby-Giroux compose my top line btw.

The 3rd and 4th line needs grit and good defensive ability in order to shutdown the other teams top lines. Defense can't do it all. Hall-RNH-Eberle and Couture-Seguin-Duchene would get pushed around easily, especially by a team like the U.S. and I don't see them shutting down a team like Russia.
My point was that the goalie and defense are so good that subbing out Couture, Duchene, Hall and RNH for those vets won't make a difference defensively.

Kane is a good one, forgot about him. 14th forward as of now.

The Oiler line is my ''3rd line'' yes, but they would not be a checking line. Benn - Toews - Giroux would be my shutdown line.

You don't need 2 scoring lines and 2 grind lines. That doesn't work, or you're severely decreasing your chances of winning anyway.

And again, the young guys won't necessarily get pushed around in two years. This also big ice. If it was NHL ice my team would be different.

Eberle isn't a maybe at this point. He's 100% a lock barring major regression/injury.

E. Staal/Iginla/Perry/Getzlaf won't help shut down Russia better than Couture/Seguin/Duchene.

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Getzlaf isn't on my team either, but Nash certainly is. Say what you will about his NHL performance, but the guy was huge for us in 2010 in a 2-way role and his game would be a great fit for us on the international ice surface. We'd be able to slot him in on any line, on either wing, and in defensive or offensive situations. Same for Mike Richards. As far as Staal goes, he'd be a perfect candidate for the 13th forward role in my view - a strong overall player with no glaring weaknesses in his game (and who can do everything at a reasonably high level), international experience, can and will play and role asked of him.

Agree on Duchene and Couture - there are better players available and they're both pretty far down my forward depth chart. RNH is the least likely of the Oilers trio to make the team, in my view. Crosby, Stamkos, and Toews are certainly ahead of him. Our checking center (say, Bergeron) is ahead of him. Even if, due to injuries, we lack scoring, Getzlaf and maybe E. Staal are ahead of him and that's not even considering converted centers like Tavares, Giroux and Richards who I'm penciling in on the wing. Things can change over the next year and a half, though. Eberle and Hall have the advantage of playing on the wing, and I can see situations where one or both make it - say, if Perry continues to under-perform and we need a scoring RWer (Eberle), or if we just need Hall's skillset on the international ice. Both guys might simply step it up next year and make it impossible for Yzerman not to take them anyway.

Seguin might find himself on the team based on his chemistry with Bergeron; while he doesn't fit the mold of a traditional checking line winger, keep in mind that Babcock likes to roll 4 lines and have his defensive line(s) present offensive threats as well (think of Toews-Richards-Nash). Basically, you don't want shutdown forwards sucking up 18-22 mins of ice time, so its important that the lines are balanced and can play in any situation. Neal needs to keep developing chemistry and Crosby and scoring 35+ goals - that's his ticket to making this team. But overall, I've never been overly impressed with Neal. I like Benn better, and he's my dark horse to make the forward group, but like I've said before he needs a big season, and either a really strong playoff run or an outstanding WHCs if Dallas doesn't make the playoffs to make the cut. Kane is in a similar situation to Benn - nice player, still developing, needs to prove himself a bit more.

As an aside, what do people think of Patrick Marleau making the team? He's got outstanding speed, can play C or LW, is very solid defensively (and obviously offensively as well), has the ability to play on any of the forward lines, can kill penalties and play the PP, and played pretty well for us in Vancouver. I'm not advocating for him for 2014 given the talent that is ahead of him now or is projected to be ahead of him by then, but if we were to have to set a roster immediately for a World Cup in a month, he'd probably be on my team.
I'm projecting Duchene, Seguin and Couture as a 70-80 point two-way forwards. RNH as an 80+ point two-way forward.

That's much better than Richards, Nash, Bergeron, Marleau, J. Staal and even E. Staal.

The tournament is NOT being played right now. It's in two years. Even then the young players could be better right now.

Seguin outscored Bergeron.

Couture outscored Marleau.

etc.

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08-08-2012, 01:24 AM
  #203
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Lucic would be a decent option if it was small ice.

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08-08-2012, 05:36 AM
  #204
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My point was that the goalie and defense are so good that subbing out Couture, Duchene, Hall and RNH for those vets won't make a difference defensively.

Kane is a good one, forgot about him. 14th forward as of now.

The Oiler line is my ''3rd line'' yes, but they would not be a checking line. Benn - Toews - Giroux would be my shutdown line.

You don't need 2 scoring lines and 2 grind lines. That doesn't work, or you're severely decreasing your chances of winning anyway.

And again, the young guys won't necessarily get pushed around in two years. This also big ice. If it was NHL ice my team would be different.

Eberle isn't a maybe at this point. He's 100% a lock barring major regression/injury.

E. Staal/Iginla/Perry/Getzlaf won't help shut down Russia better than Couture/Seguin/Duchene.



I'm projecting Duchene, Seguin and Couture as a 70-80 point two-way forwards. RNH as an 80+ point two-way forward.

That's much better than Richards, Nash, Bergeron, Marleau, J. Staal and even E. Staal.

The tournament is NOT being played right now. It's in two years. Even then the young players could be better right now.

Seguin outscored Bergeron.

Couture outscored Marleau.

etc.
Forwards need to support the defense and goalie as they can't do everything.

You should put the "Oiler line" as the 2nd line then. Giroux should absolutely be in the top 6 though. He is good defensively, but he's 1 of the top offensive players on the whole team too and should be on a scoring line.

My "grinding" lines aren't without offensive abilities, they just can shutdown players with the best of them. I prefer E.Kane,Bergeron,Doan,Perry to do that than Seguin,Couture,Duchene.

Again, Couture,Seguin,Duchene will not become big or physical enough to compare to guys like E.Kane,Doan,Perry.

It may be big ice, but it's not like the game won't get physical. This won't be the All Star game. Otherwise, Russia will be winning gold for sure.

Iginla,E.Staal,Getzlaf aren't on my team. Iginla would be in my top 6 if he were to make it. He wouldn't be in a shutdown role. E.Staal is going to have to bring his game to a higher level to make it. If Getzlaf bounces back to 90 points, then it'll be hard not to have him on the team. I'd say Getzlaf has the highest chance of making it of those 3.

I don't believe Eberle is a lock. He'd be in a top 6 role, if he were to make it though.
Small, not overly fast, not physical, pretty good defensively and good offensively. Giroux is my current top line RW so Eberle isn't surpassing him. St Louis is small too, but a lot faster and brings leadership and i'd call it a tie for their defensive ability. If St Louis regresses quite a bit and Eberle improves quite a bit, then I could see Eberle filling that spot instead(2nd line RW). This would be predicting the future though. St Louis may very well "still have it" a year and a half from now.

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08-08-2012, 07:36 AM
  #205
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Bergeron I believe missed games before due to his broken thumb (which obviously reduced his faceoff abilities) and I think the word after the Olympics was that he suffered a groin pull in either the Germany or Swiss game.

Seguin still has a lot to prove, especially considering he's competing as a scoring forward really. Evander Kane, I just don't know about. The guy lacks hockey sense in general, but he has so much speed and power, sometimes one or two guys like that are useful. Our players sometimes over think in these tournaments, and guys like that don't tend to over think, they just go full steam ahead. I always feel like that is how the US competes, they have a bunch of simple players that just play full steam ahead.
That's true about Bergeron. He might have been a reach by Hockey Canada in 2010, but since then he's established himself as one of the top 2-way forwards in the game, which includes winning a Selke, still dominant on faceoffs, and was the best forward on a Cup championship team. He should be in Sochi.

Agreed on your 2nd paragraph. Aside from Mike Richards, we don't have many guys similar to Callahan, Backes, Brown, and Oshie.

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08-08-2012, 07:46 AM
  #206
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That's true about Bergeron. He might have been a reach by Hockey Canada in 2010, but since then he's established himself as one of the top 2-way forwards in the game, which includes winning a Selke, still dominant on faceoffs, and was the best forward on a Cup championship team. He should be in Sochi.

Agreed on your 2nd paragraph. Aside from Mike Richards, we don't have many guys similar to Callahan, Backes, Brown, and Oshie.
Another thing working in Bergeron's favor is, he's from Quebec. and you know HC will want to be all inclusive. Giroux is French Canadian, but Ontario French-Canadian. There's Fluery and Letang as the only other two real French Canadian candidates out there? Anybody else got any other suggestions?

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08-08-2012, 07:54 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
My point was that the goalie and defense are so good that subbing out Couture, Duchene, Hall and RNH for those vets won't make a difference defensively.

Kane is a good one, forgot about him. 14th forward as of now.

The Oiler line is my ''3rd line'' yes, but they would not be a checking line. Benn - Toews - Giroux would be my shutdown line.

You don't need 2 scoring lines and 2 grind lines. That doesn't work, or you're severely decreasing your chances of winning anyway.

And again, the young guys won't necessarily get pushed around in two years. This also big ice. If it was NHL ice my team would be different.

Eberle isn't a maybe at this point. He's 100% a lock barring major regression/injury.

E. Staal/Iginla/Perry/Getzlaf won't help shut down Russia better than Couture/Seguin/Duchene.



I'm projecting Duchene, Seguin and Couture as a 70-80 point two-way forwards. RNH as an 80+ point two-way forward.

That's much better than Richards, Nash, Bergeron, Marleau, J. Staal and even E. Staal.

The tournament is NOT being played right now. It's in two years. Even then the young players could be better right now.

Seguin outscored Bergeron.

Couture outscored Marleau.

etc.
If you're building your team by looking at the NHL scoring leaders, you won't end up with a very balanced team. I'd take Bergeron, Richards, Nash, and Eric Staal over Duchene, RNH, Couture, and Seguin any day of the week - now, and probably in a year and a half from now, too. RNH and Seguin do project as 80+ forwards, but as scoring centers they'll be hard-pressed to move ahead of one of Crosby, Stamkos, Toews, Giroux, Tavares, maybe even Getzlaf if he bounces back. Seguin may get there based on his chemistry with Bergeron, but he's also a bit ahead of the curve with respect to his overall game because he's been so well-coached in his career so far.

Duchene lacks hockey sense and shouldn't be anywhere near this team. If we're desperate for scoring forwards, I'd take Spezza in a heartbeat over him. Couture is good, but Bergeron is much better in the role they'd be asked to play. I'll give you the 10 more points that Couture might have on Bergeron, but I'll take Bergeron's elite PKing, 60% faceoff rate, and Selke-caliber 2-way abilities.

And having both Toews and Giroux on your shutdown line? C'mon - those are two of our top four forwards, and would be a misuse of talent. I'm all for rolling out four balanced lines, but jeez...

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08-08-2012, 08:00 AM
  #208
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Another thing working in Bergeron's favor is, he's from Quebec. and you know HC will want to be all inclusive. Giroux is French Canadian, but Ontario French-Canadian. There's Fluery and Letang as the only other two real French Canadian candidates out there? Anybody else got any other suggestions?
A bit cynical, but a good point nonetheless. St. Louis would be the only other one I can think of, but we've pretty much agreed that he's doubtful for 2014 based on the fact that he was passed up for 2010 and he'll be 39 years old. Brodeur might still be kicking around The only other name that comes to mind (disregarding the likes of Lecavalier, Gagne, and Tanguay, who've all had their day) is Couturier, but he's from Bathurst, N.B.

Besides that, our goaltending is pretty weak, and Brodeur and Luongo might still be kicking around....

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08-08-2012, 08:09 AM
  #209
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A bit cynical, but a good point nonetheless. St. Louis would be the only other one I can think of, but we've pretty much agreed that he's doubtful for 2014 based on the fact that he was passed up for 2010 and he'll be 39 years old. Brodeur might still be kicking around The only other name that comes to mind (disregarding the likes of Lecavalier, Gagne, and Tanguay, who've all had their day) is Couturier, but he's from Bathurst, N.B.

Besides that, our goaltending is pretty weak, and Brodeur and Luongo might still be kicking around....
Oh man, if Brodeur and Lou make it, I won't be watching that disaster. I'll be taking vacation in February during the Olympics on some tropical island cut off from the rest of the world.

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08-08-2012, 08:17 AM
  #210
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Oh man, if Brodeur and Lou make it, I won't be watching that disaster. I'll be taking vacation in February during the Olympics on some tropical island cut off from the rest of the world.
LOL - I was being tongue-in-cheek, I'm certainly not advocating for either one of those two guys to be on the 2014 team.

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08-08-2012, 08:39 AM
  #211
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LOL - I was being tongue-in-cheek, I'm certainly not advocating for either one of those two guys to be on the 2014 team.
I understood that...but I know there are still a lot of Marty and Lou supporters out there...I'm just sayin, if they play, I won't be watching that debacle.

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08-08-2012, 09:03 AM
  #212
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Bergeron should be replaced by J. Staal. I see very little chance for Bergeron to make it with J. Staal filling that role.

I wouldn't write off Iginla so fast. Obviously Hall/RNH/Seguin are the popular picks to replace him but I can see Stevie Y wanting a veteran like Iggy on this squad. With first timers like Stamkos/Giroux/Tavares/J. Staal/Eberle likely to make it he'll want someone who is a rock like Iginla. Plus people are talking like Iggy is done. 32 goals this past year on a horrible team! I think he keeps it up and wears the 'C' in 2014. I'm not taking him off my projected roster until he proves otherwise. A spot is his to lose, he has earned that.

Goaltending is tough to forecast because we all know you ride the hot hand. Price is my only lock simply because he is the best Canadian goalie and I don't see that changing. Will Fleury bounce back after a rough playoff? (I think yes). Will Mike Smith continue to play out of this world? (I think he'll regress a tad). Where will Luongo go with his play assuming he leaves VAN? Goalies 2 & 3 are such a toss up IMO.

Anybody think Dan Girardi has a shot? He's such a beast on the back end. I think Yzerman will LOVE him, just not sure if there's room. A good problem to have with all our excellent D-men

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08-08-2012, 09:06 AM
  #213
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Bergeron should be replaced by J. Staal. I see very little chance for Bergeron to make it with J. Staal filling that role.

I wouldn't write off Iginla so fast. Obviously Hall/RNH/Seguin are the popular picks to replace him but I can see Stevie Y wanting a veteran like Iggy on this squad. With first timers like Stamkos/Giroux/Tavares/J. Staal/Eberle likely to make it he'll want someone who is a rock like Iginla. Plus people are talking like Iggy is done. 32 goals this past year on a horrible team! I think he keeps it up and wears the 'C' in 2014. I'm not taking him off my projected roster until he proves otherwise. A spot is his to lose, he has earned that.

Goaltending is tough to forecast because we all know you ride the hot hand. Price is my only lock simply because he is the best Canadian goalie and I don't see that changing. Will Fleury bounce back after a rough playoff? (I think yes). Will Mike Smith continue to play out of this world? (I think he'll regress a tad). Where will Luongo go with his play assuming he leaves VAN? Goalies 2 & 3 are such a toss up IMO.

Anybody think Dan Girardi has a shot? He's such a beast on the back end. I think Yzerman will LOVE him, just not sure if there's room. A good problem to have with all our excellent D-men
I'd love Girardi to be there! But right now I have him number 8 and we only take 7.

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08-08-2012, 09:20 AM
  #214
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I'd love Girardi to be there! But right now I have him number 8 and we only take 7.
Me too. Seabrook is my only question mark (I currently have him in). I also have Myers out at this point but if he picks up his game he could jump in as well. Lots of fun evaluating and tough choices to come in the next year or so!

Girardi is so awesome but I think Marc Staal does ALMOST what he does in a shutdown role, but is better with first pass etc., which will be key in a high skill tournament. Thus I take M. Staal over Girardi.

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08-08-2012, 09:23 AM
  #215
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Bergeron should be replaced by J. Staal. I see very little chance for Bergeron to make it with J. Staal filling that role.

I wouldn't write off Iginla so fast. Obviously Hall/RNH/Seguin are the popular picks to replace him but I can see Stevie Y wanting a veteran like Iggy on this squad. With first timers like Stamkos/Giroux/Tavares/J. Staal/Eberle likely to make it he'll want someone who is a rock like Iginla. Plus people are talking like Iggy is done. 32 goals this past year on a horrible team! I think he keeps it up and wears the 'C' in 2014. I'm not taking him off my projected roster until he proves otherwise. A spot is his to lose, he has earned that.

Goaltending is tough to forecast because we all know you ride the hot hand. Price is my only lock simply because he is the best Canadian goalie and I don't see that changing. Will Fleury bounce back after a rough playoff? (I think yes). Will Mike Smith continue to play out of this world? (I think he'll regress a tad). Where will Luongo go with his play assuming he leaves VAN? Goalies 2 & 3 are such a toss up IMO.

Anybody think Dan Girardi has a shot? He's such a beast on the back end. I think Yzerman will LOVE him, just not sure if there's room. A good problem to have with all our excellent D-men
Jordan Staal is a good player, but how is he better than Bergeron? Bergeron is the best right-handed faceoff man in the league, elite on the PK, an absolute beast defensively, and offers some pretty good offensive upside too. Besides size and reach, I don't see what Staal offers that Bergeron doesn't.

Girardi certainly has a shot, but I think he's behind a few others like Seabrook, Myers, Staal, and Letang when we're talking about our #5 to #7 d-men. Doughty, Keith, Weber, and Pietrangelo I have as locks and Letang as a near-lock, but the problem is that out of that group only Keith is a LH shot which may give guys like Staal or even Hamhuis or Del Zotto a better chance if Yzerman and the rest of Hockey Canada care about that sort of thing (which I believe they do). He'll get invited to the summer orientation camp, and I guess we'll see from there.

As far as Iggy goes - I just don't see him as being an Olympic-caliber player by 2014. We'll have enough leadership withy Crosby, Toews, Giroux, maybe Perry/Getzlaf, Weber, Keith, Doughty, Bergeron...

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08-08-2012, 09:26 AM
  #216
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I find J. Staal to be a stronger, faster, more skilled player than Bergeron. Sure Bergeron is better than J. Staal on faceoffs, but Staal isn't too shabby in that department either. Same for PK. It's an interesting debate for sure.

I can understand the projection of Iggy sliding. It has to happen at some point right? I just haven't seen it enough to take him off this team yet and we're only apx 16 months from the team being named.

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08-08-2012, 09:38 AM
  #217
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Me too. Seabrook is my only question mark (I currently have him in). I also have Myers out at this point but if he picks up his game he could jump in as well. Lots of fun evaluating and tough choices to come in the next year or so!

Girardi is so awesome but I think Marc Staal does ALMOST what he does in a shutdown role, but is better with first pass etc., which will be key in a high skill tournament. Thus I take M. Staal over Girardi.
right now the three I have battling for the number 7 spot is Staal Letang and Girardi. I even contemplated there for a while a Weber Girardi first line D. I'm a big fan, but still I give the edge to Staal by a slight margin and have Girardi slightly ahead of Letang, only because Doughty and Pietroangelo do what Letang does, but only better. This year will tell the story if Letang is in or out.

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08-08-2012, 09:40 AM
  #218
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I find J. Staal to be a stronger, faster, more skilled player than Bergeron. Sure Bergeron is better than J. Staal on faceoffs, but Staal isn't too shabby in that department either. Same for PK. It's an interesting debate for sure.

I can understand the projection of Iggy sliding. It has to happen at some point right? I just haven't seen it enough to take him off this team yet and we're only apx 16 months from the team being named.
He's bigger, stronger, and a better goal scorer, while Bergeron is a better playmaker and has better overall hockey sense. Both are strong skaters, slight edge to Staal. We all know how much Hockey Canada loves pre-existing chemistry, so Jordan's best shot at making the team, in my view, is to play great with his big brother in Carolina so that Yzerman takes them as two-thirds of a 3rd or 4th line. Honestly, I'm a Bergeron fan but would also be cool with Jordan on the team.

The issue I have with Iggy is that if he's not scoring, he doesn't add much value to the team (locker room presence aside). He's no longer all that good defensively, he's no longer all that physical, and he's slowing down. He'd potentially be a liability on the international ice surface. I wasn't all that impressed with his play in Vancouver either; notwithstanding the gold-winning goal he didn't really hit it off with Crosby in a scoring role, looked out of place in an energy/defensive role, and was a non-factor in the medal round.

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08-08-2012, 09:45 AM
  #219
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right now the three I have battling for the number 7 spot is Staal Letang and Girardi. I even contemplated there for a while a Weber Girardi first line D. I'm a big fan, but still I give the edge to Staal by a slight margin and have Girardi slightly ahead of Letang, only because Doughty and Pietroangelo do what Letang does, but only better. This year will tell the story if Letang is in or out.
So you have Doughty, Keith, Weber, Pietrangelo, Seabrook,...who am I missing?

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08-08-2012, 09:59 AM
  #220
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So you have Doughty, Keith, Weber, Pietrangelo, Seabrook,...who am I missing?
I probably should have been clearer, for the 6th and 7th spot I have those 3 - Staal, Letang and Girardi. so two of them make it, one gets left behind and the five you listed are my 5 guys.

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08-08-2012, 10:02 AM
  #221
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So you have Doughty, Keith, Weber, Pietrangelo, Seabrook,...who am I missing?
I know you being a habs fan you are probably high on Subban. I don't see him there just yet. I have him on the number 1 line on Canada's B-team. So he's close! And no, I'm not a habs fan. )

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08-08-2012, 10:04 AM
  #222
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I probably should have been clearer, for the 6th and 7th spot I have those 3 - Staal, Letang and Girardi. so two of them make it, one gets left behind and the five you listed are my 5 guys.
Got it, and pretty much agree though personally I have a bit more of a gap between Staal and Letang, and Girardi.

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08-08-2012, 10:09 AM
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I know you being a habs fan you are probably high on Subban. I don't see him there just yet. I have him on the number 1 line on Canada's B-team. So he's close! And no, I'm not a habs fan. )
I'm not that high on Subban, personally, at least for the Olympic team. I think the guys we've been talking about (Girardi, Letang, Seabrook, Staal) are clearly better, Myers probably is too in a team Canada context. If we're looking for an offensive d-man (say, Doughty gets hurt or Letang doesn't progress), then I can see him getting the call.

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08-08-2012, 10:19 AM
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I'm not that high on Subban, personally, at least for the Olympic team. I think the guys we've been talking about (Girardi, Letang, Seabrook, Staal) are clearly better, Myers probably is too in a team Canada context. If we're looking for an offensive d-man (say, Doughty gets hurt or Letang doesn't progress), then I can see him getting the call.
Usually 95% of Habs fans will push for Subban like leaf fans push for Phanuef. Once we start getting team rivalries involved, then things can get heated. Myers I like, but he's dropped off somewhat and now I have him and Subban neck and neck, dead heat at number 9 spot. I liked Subban his first year, but his antics continued into his 2nd full year and started to get just a little annoying...

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08-08-2012, 10:21 AM
  #225
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Usually 95% of Habs fans will push for Subban like leaf fans push for Phanuef. Once we start getting team rivalries involved, then things can get heated. Myers I like, but he's dropped off somewhat and now I have him and Subban neck and neck, dead heat at number 9 spot. I liked Subban his first year, but his antics continued into his 2nd full year and started to get just a little annoying...
The Maple Leaf comes before the CH, in my books. A few years ago I would have thought that Myers would have been a lock by now, but he's obviously not there yet.

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