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Old
06-07-2012, 11:49 AM
  #251
Pennertration
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermullet View Post
That signing is symptomatic of everything that Tambellini has screwed up. Terrible pro scouting, terrible use of money, and a willingness to fill out a roster with absolute garbage in order to stay at the bottom of the league. All while claiming that this team is playoff-worthy.

I guarantee that GMs around the league are howling with laughter at the Oilers' propensity for acquiring terrible players.
Link?

Yeah, I'm sure they're just doubled over laughing at having to face Eberle, Hall and RNH.

As for Barker, it was a calculated risk. Sign this guy for a season and see if he turns things around. Not a huge expense, certainly not a long term - low risk, high potential for reward.

I think Scott Hannan probably would've been a better fit, but I'm guessing they wanted someone younger who might be able to stick around longer if he succeeded.

You wanna take shots at the Khabibulin signing (which was certainly a bad one - in terms of length of contract anyway), that's fine. Criticizing a one-year deal for a D-man once drafted 3rd overall ... meh.

As for the taking shots at Tambo saying the team is playoff worthy, what's he supposed to say? This team is junk and has no shot at playoffs? That looks real good to a team that likely already has confidence issues. All teams start the season saying either: I think this is a playoff team or I think we have a Stanley Cup calibre team. Every single one of them.

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06-07-2012, 12:13 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by The Human Torch View Post
A Tambellini contract extension is about the single biggest sign that this organization could give that they don't give a **** about winning. Building arenas, charging $10 for beers, and expanding the Rexall empire all take priority over icing a winning team and contending for championships.

God, I'm a fan of such a loser franchise.
They are a big fan of winning and they want to do it for many years, we're talking Red Wings or NJ levels of success over the last 20 years or so. You don't take over a team full of Ethan Moreau's, Shawn Horcoff's, etc. and do that overnight. Added to that is the fact that Edmonton is not a desirable location for many NHLers and it means that we have to scrape the bottom of the barrel before we can build a team that will be one that other franchises want to model themselves after. The Wings and Jersey weren't always winning franchises, they sucked for some time as well.

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Originally Posted by Supermullet View Post
Don't bother cherry-picking the exception to the rule and pretending that this sad sack team has any hope of repeating their success, unless you really believe that we'll improve by 47 points from last season to next season.

These naive "we could be <insert Stanley Cup Champion team name here>" posts are pointless. Have you looked at just how bad this team is, how many holes we have, and how Tambellini has actually made the line-up worse?

<mod edit>
A few questions for you, how many holes do we have?

What would you plan have been to return us to glory?

What would your plan have been to get us elite talent?

The only elite talent that we added in the last 15+ years was Pronger and that was simply because St. Louis was scared crap less about the cap from most accounts. You usually need great players and/or great picks to acquire great players unless you get somewhat lucky in the draft (Eberle) or the great player coming back has a piss poor cap hit (Nash). Joe Thornton is really the only high end player that I can think of that returned a crappy return. And oh yeah these players need to WANT to play here or they will pull a Heatley or Pronger and you end up selling at a loss. IMO we had one of two choices, either remain the status quo and maybe make the postseason year after year, or we do what we've done. I'll take the later, seeing Hall, Eberle, RNH, and this year's pick will be the closest thing that I've seen to the great Oilers teams of the past. Yes there are holes that need to be filled, but tell me this, what's easier, filling those holes or getting elite talents? At the conclusion of this draft we should have 4 elite talents, that's more than many teams in this league can say.

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Old
06-07-2012, 12:16 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Pennertration View Post
Regarding the apparent discrepancy about Renney being fired and Tambo keeping his job, I think two things did Renney in.

1) His inability to translate team improvements (more wins, better PP, better PK, etc) into a better showing in the standings.

2) His apparent inability to get more out of guys like Belanger, Eager, Hordichuk, Khabibulin and perhaps even Paajarvi and Omark.
As for Tambo staying in place, I think management feels the team is about where it should be in the rebuild process. I also think Tambo will really start to be evaluated and judged based on his performance moving forward. If the team underperforms early and management doesn't like the job Tambo did in the offseason, I think they'll let him go (provided there's a half-decent candidate available to replace him).
How on Earth is it a coaches responsibility to get blood out of a rock? Man if the bolded are your indication of Renneys inability to get much out of players I think you're barkering up the wrong tree. I'm not sure how much could be expected from any of those players the past year. I note you didn't put Cam Barker on that list because it probably doesn't pass your smell test either.

I'll make it simple.

What Tambo recruited to a chronic last place club was filler junk. Out of the bolded only Belanger could be expected to bring more but he looks done, spent, and the team expectation that exists in Phoenix through guys like Doan pushing team mates doesn't exist in this dressing room because we don't have players like that who will not only push their game but everybody elses. Belanger gets out of a hard work environment and proceeds to play like **** here. Surprise surprise. Note that we'll also have 4 different coaches here in recent seasons none of who have been able to successfully force **** uphill.

If I'm a coach of a last place team and my GM recruited Barker, Sutton, Eager, Hordichuk, and Belanger as the help to get you over a major hump I'd vomit all over, then start working on my resume.

This was a coach kill lineup from August on.

Presumably nothing that ever happens here could ever result in a management kill. Because that would require somebody else flicking the switch.

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06-07-2012, 12:37 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Supermullet View Post
Using cap space to acquire assets means that we take on a bad contract along with prospects/picks when a contender needs a salary dump to make a playoff run. See Florida.

Nowhere in my posts did I advocate big game hunting.

Don't be so foolish as to blindly accept the "our hands are tied, we must finish last for several years" excuse trotted out to the media. It's a pathetic lie from a loser management team.
With the prospect of having to sign Hall/Eberle and RNH going forward which of the following contracts would you like to have on the Oilers:

1) Tomas Fleischmann 3 years left @ $4.5M NMC
(-now 28, signed after a 31 point season and after being diagnosed with a severe condition that causes clotting which could flare up at any time)

2) Scottie Upshall 3 more years @ $3.5M NMC
(-now 28, 5 pts in 26 gms last year after 34 in 82 the year before)

3) Sean Bergenheim 3 more years @ $2.75M
(now 28 , 23 points in 62 games, career high of 29 pts)

4) Tomas Kopecky 3 more year @ $3M
(now 30, 32 points in 80 games)

5) Ed Jovanovski 3 more years @ $4.125M
(35+ contract, 13 points in 66 games)

6) Brian Campbell 4 more years @$7.14M NTC

Honestly, I think any of the first 5 would be terrible deals for the Oilers. Certainly they do not match up with the Belanger deal. Despite Belanger's lack of offense last year I would still put his signing ahead of any of the first 5 signings above.

The Campbell deal is different. If you could have obtained him from Chicago along with an asset I could have lived with the deal as he is a premier offensive dman. The problem is though that there is no chance he would have waived to go to Edmonton. In fact, I think it is fair to say that Florida is one of the few teams he would have gone to as he went there specifically because of Tallon.

I have serious concerns about Tambo's ability to manage the next phase of this rebuild. But he has done a good job with the non-NHL infrastructure, and did not saddle the team with any anchors going forward. I think we will have a pretty good idea by August 1st if the plan is to move forward. If they do nothing, I expect people's patience to wear thin very quickly.

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Old
06-07-2012, 12:47 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
With the prospect of having to sign Hall/Eberle and RNH going forward which of the following contracts would you like to have on the Oilers:

1) Tomas Fleischmann 3 years left @ $4.5M NMC
(-now 28, signed after a 31 point season and after being diagnosed with a severe condition that causes clotting which could flare up at any time)

2) Scottie Upshall 3 more years @ $3.5M NMC
(-now 28, 5 pts in 26 gms last year after 34 in 82 the year before)

3) Sean Bergenheim 3 more years @ $2.75M
(now 28 , 23 points in 62 games, career high of 29 pts)

4) Tomas Kopecky 3 more year @ $3M
(now 30, 32 points in 80 games)

5) Ed Jovanovski 3 more years @ $4.125M
(35+ contract, 13 points in 66 games)

6) Brian Campbell 4 more years @$7.14M NTC

Honestly, I think any of the first 5 would be terrible deals for the Oilers. Certainly they do not match up with the Belanger deal. Despite Belanger's lack of offense last year I would still put his signing ahead of any of the first 5 signings above.

The Campbell deal is different. If you could have obtained him from Chicago along with an asset I could have lived with the deal as he is a premier offensive dman. The problem is though that there is no chance he would have waived to go to Edmonton. In fact, I think it is fair to say that Florida is one of the few teams he would have gone to as he went there specifically because of Tallon.

I have serious concerns about Tambo's ability to manage the next phase of this rebuild. But he has done a good job with the non-NHL infrastructure, and did not saddle the team with any anchors going forward. I think we will have a pretty good idea by August 1st if the plan is to move forward. If they do nothing, I expect people's patience to wear thin very quickly.
Question is would those guys sign in Edmonton for those prices. Doesn't Florida have no state taxes? How much cash does that put in their pockets? Jovo is also a no go for me and I don't think I'd take a chance on Fleischmann.

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06-07-2012, 12:50 PM
  #256
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Clearly Florida is doing it wrong.

Moving out of the lottery and into the playoffs in one season?

Pfffft.

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06-07-2012, 01:02 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Clearly Florida is doing it wrong.

Moving out of the lottery and into the playoffs in one season?

Pfffft.
I'll bet that the Oilers could trade Hall/Eberle/RNH and this year's first for a return that would easily make the playoff this year. In fact I bet if they offered up all four they would be able to get most of florida's team. Would that be the right move?

Obviously what I am saying above is extreme, but it demonstrates the flaw in arguing that you can judge a GM's decisions by looking at the standings in a given year.

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06-07-2012, 01:05 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Agreed. They had management that knew how to take some risks and get creative. We had ... well Tamby.
Right. It was creativity and risks that allowed them to trade for, and sign Chris Pronger.

You are suggesting that if the Oilers used a little bit of creativity, and risk taking, maybe he wouldn't have asked for a trade out of here. Like the fact Chris Pronger's wife DID NOT WANT TO LIVE IN EDMONTON had absolutely ZERO to do with it---> A common sentiment shared among MANY NHL players.

Dany Heatley would've been an Oiler if we used more Creativity right? Hossa required a bit more risk-taking than creativity, but that was what was lacking right?




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06-07-2012, 01:06 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I'll bet that the Oilers could trade Hall/Eberle/RNH and this year's first for a return that would easily make the playoff this year. In fact I bet if they offered up all four they would be able to get most of florida's team. Would that be the right move?

Obviously what I am saying above is extreme, but it demonstrates the flaw in arguing that you can judge a GM's decisions by looking at the standings in a given year.
Exactly. The signings might not look so great if Florida bombs next year.

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06-07-2012, 01:13 PM
  #260
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Exactly. The signings might not look so great if Florida bombs next year.
Not to mention are they going to win anything with that lineup? IMO the goal is to position yourself to win the cup, I don't see it with Florida, I see a team that has likely had financial issues and had missed the playoffs for a decade or better trying to get more interest in the brand, hardly a mirror image of our situation.

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06-07-2012, 01:14 PM
  #261
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Exactly. The signings might not look so great if Florida bombs next year.
Even if they do not bomb next year it deos not mean that the same moves would have been the right ones for the Oilers. The two teams had quite different circumstances entering last years free agent period.

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06-07-2012, 01:20 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
IMO we had one of two choices, either remain the status quo and maybe make the postseason year after year, or we do what we've done. I'll take the later, seeing Hall, Eberle, RNH, and this year's pick will be the closest thing that I've seen to the great Oilers teams of the past. Yes there are holes that need to be filled, but tell me this, what's easier, filling those holes or getting elite talents? At the conclusion of this draft we should have 4 elite talents, that's more than many teams in this league can say.
Elite talents are no guarantee. Take a look at Atlanta (Kovalchuk, Heatley, Hossa) and Tampa Bay (Lecavalier, St. Louis, Stamkos) - they had no success with their elite talents. In fact how many playoff games has Stamkos played now?

You're right that teams need both elite talents and strong depth. Can Tambellini provide both? The only thing he's accomplished so far in his Oiler tenure is demonstrated that he knows how to build teams that can lose, and lose lots. Finishing in 30th is not evidence that he knows how to build teams that can finish first.

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06-07-2012, 01:30 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Elite talents are no guarantee. Take a look at Atlanta (Kovalchuk, Heatley, Hossa) and Tampa Bay (Lecavalier, St. Louis, Stamkos) - they had no success with their elite talents. In fact how many playoff games has Stamkos played now?

You're right that teams need both elite talents and strong depth. Can Tambellini provide both? The only thing he's accomplished so far in his Oiler tenure is demonstrated that he knows how to build teams that can lose, and lose lots. Finishing in 30th is not evidence that he knows how to build teams that can finish first.
Who was the last team to win the Cup without a superstar player on it?

Last 2 SCF's

Sedins, Kesler (was playing like a superstar that year), Luongo

Vs.

Thomas, Chara, Lucic, etc.

This year

Kovalchuk, Parise, Elias, Brodeur

Vs.

Kopitar, Richards, Brown, Doughty, Quick

As for your question, can Tambellini provide both? Stay tuned and we'll both find out.

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06-07-2012, 01:43 PM
  #264
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Not a surprise, but still stupid. Tambo had the easiest job in hockey the last 3 years, do nothing and pray to the lottery gods.

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06-07-2012, 01:45 PM
  #265
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Not a surprise, but still stupid. Tambo had the easiest job in hockey the last 3 years, do nothing and pray to the lottery gods.
Who has made more trades than he has in that time?

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06-07-2012, 02:32 PM
  #266
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How on Earth is it a coaches responsibility to get blood out of a rock? Man if the bolded are your indication of Renneys inability to get much out of players I think you're barkering up the wrong tree. I'm not sure how much could be expected from any of those players the past year. I note you didn't put Cam Barker on that list because it probably doesn't pass your smell test either.

I'll make it simple.

What Tambo recruited to a chronic last place club was filler junk. Out of the bolded only Belanger could be expected to bring more but he looks done, spent, and the team expectation that exists in Phoenix through guys like Doan pushing team mates doesn't exist in this dressing room because we don't have players like that who will not only push their game but everybody elses. Belanger gets out of a hard work environment and proceeds to play like **** here. Surprise surprise. Note that we'll also have 4 different coaches here in recent seasons none of who have been able to successfully force **** uphill.

If I'm a coach of a last place team and my GM recruited Barker, Sutton, Eager, Hordichuk, and Belanger as the help to get you over a major hump I'd vomit all over, then start working on my resume.

This was a coach kill lineup from August on.

Presumably nothing that ever happens here could ever result in a management kill. Because that would require somebody else flicking the switch.
Belanger definitely could have played better, or at very least produced more.

Eager could have been more consistent. He played great at times and downright terrible at other times. I think he's better than he played last year.

Same goes for Khabi on the consistency front.

Hordichuk and Eager could have played more at even strength. Didn't understand why Hordichuk would dress and then sit most of the game. Given more minutes, I think those guys would've been fine.

Disagree all you want - that's how I see it.

Besides, I was suggesting a POSSIBLE explanation for Renney's firing, not necessarily the gospel, which I don't profess to know.

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06-07-2012, 03:43 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Who was the last team to win the Cup without a superstar player on it?

Last 2 SCF's

Sedins, Kesler (was playing like a superstar that year), Luongo

Vs.

Thomas, Chara, Lucic, etc.

This year

Kovalchuk, Parise, Elias, Brodeur

Vs.

Kopitar, Richards, Brown, Doughty, Quick

As for your question, can Tambellini provide both? Stay tuned and we'll both find out.
i'm not sure I would define these players as superstars.

Thomas? Lucic? Are they effective? Absolutely. But superstars hint at elite talent, which suggest that they should be top 3 picks. That's what the Oilers are doing - they're bombing seasons so that they can pick up these elite players in the top selections.

Thomas was not a top selection. Neither was Chara, neither was Lucic. The point being - is that Boston didn't have to tank in order to acquire these players.

Looking at New Jersey and Los Angeles - Elias, Parise were not elite picks, even if they are superstars. Richards, Brown are not superstars and Quick and Kopitar were not elite picks.

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06-07-2012, 04:17 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
i'm not sure I would define these players as superstars.

Thomas? Lucic? Are they effective? Absolutely. But superstars hint at elite talent, which suggest that they should be top 3 picks. That's what the Oilers are doing - they're bombing seasons so that they can pick up these elite players in the top selections.

Thomas was not a top selection. Neither was Chara, neither was Lucic. The point being - is that Boston didn't have to tank in order to acquire these players.

Looking at New Jersey and Los Angeles - Elias, Parise were not elite picks, even if they are superstars. Richards, Brown are not superstars and Quick and Kopitar were not elite picks.
You wouldn't consider Lucic a superstar? Why because he doesn't dangle? The guy is exactly that, big, skilled, and physical. I'd take him over most guys with similar production because of the physical element that he brings to the game, the same can be said of Brown. Thomas was an elite goaltender 2 years ago, how you could say otherwise boggles the mind IMO. Lucic is one of if not the best power forwards in the game

Thomas was a case that no one could've predicted, Chara would be like us signing Weber, and Lucic like Eberle involved a lot of luck and expedited development to get to where they are. Elite picks simply means that the chances that said pick turns out are better than if they were drafted later. And if Richards isn't a star then tell me why LA paid a Kings ransom to add him? Yes our kids generally speaking have more skill than most of these players, as they should 2 of them were drafted 1st overall and we've got one more on the way.

Boston and LA don't have a stigma of being a cold weathered place with winter 6 months a year, that helps their cause. It's really easy pointing to other teams that are more desired locations and asking why couldn't we do the same. Well if you want to play that game then why hasn't Calgary or why won't Winnipeg done/do the same? All things are not equal and anyone that thinks that they are needs to kick that ideology to the curb unless they think that everything is always equal in life. Why is it that the Rangers year after year add extremely high end guys? Didn't Calgary try to sniff Richards last year? Should we condemn them because he picked NY like Chara picked Boston over us? It's a fact of life, Alberta is not a desired place to live for many NHLers. Now building all of this talent here IMO is the best chance of changing that.

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06-07-2012, 04:35 PM
  #269
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Maggie the Monkey could have done his job.

Doing nothing shouldn't get you kudos and a contract extension.

Tambo hasn't shown anything to indicate he's a competent NHL GM.
Exactly right.

Some people are confusing icing the worst roster in the League 3 years running as part of a rebuilding plan.

Tambo has done almost nothing to earn the trust of the fanbase. Terrible communicator, questionable ability to evaluate talent and to add to all that he sounds like a bumbling idiot in interviews.

The Katz era has been a dismal failure so far.


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06-07-2012, 04:51 PM
  #270
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I have no issues with offering Tambo an extension. But there has to be some improvement (playoff spot or very close to one) for him to stay on past this year.
Attracting Free Agents to Edmonton is nearly impossible unless we severely overpay or we have an excellent team. Building through the draft is the only way we have any shot at a cup run in the future.

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06-07-2012, 05:24 PM
  #271
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Not sure how I feel about this.

I'm skeptical our team would be much different at this point with/without Tambo; our prospect pool was a catastrophe and then was further depleted for the cup run, and then everyone just left off UFA terms. We didn't even have a development system.

Not really crediting him either because there's been some REAL goofy moves during the tenure.

It's up to him now to actually pull off some trades for good NHL talent to fill the gaps in our team before the CBA devours some of these incredibly talented kids.


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06-07-2012, 06:05 PM
  #272
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Exactly right.

Some people are confusing icing the worst roster in the League 3 years running as part of a rebuilding plan.
Obviously many feel differently. We were told this is how is would be and... here we are. Exactly how we knew it was going to happen.

There's nothing to be confused about.

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06-07-2012, 06:09 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Clearly Florida is doing it wrong.

Moving out of the lottery and into the playoffs in one season?

Pfffft.
To follow the Florida model we still have 4 or 5 years of missing the playoffs in front of us.

If the goal was to only become a fringe playoff team, that could have been done without a rebuild at all.

We were told it would be a bit of a long and painful process, and it has been. I think we are poised to be right on schedule. Shedding the mediocre coach is a sign that management feels we are ready for the next step.

If Tambi/Lowe bungle the next coach hiring and/or the draft, then i will be more worried, but thus far they have done what they said needed to be done.

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06-07-2012, 06:16 PM
  #274
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Who has made more trades than he has in that time?
BB had a link in her news thread that goes through every move Tamby has made in his tenure.
I'm sure you read it, but maybe some others didn't so I'll copy paste the link here.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...s-he-has-made/

Not saying I agree with all those grades ... but man what a pathetic body of work.

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06-07-2012, 06:27 PM
  #275
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Location: Sunnyvale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnrefinedCrude View Post
To follow the Florida model we still have 4 or 5 years of missing the playoffs in front of us.

If the goal was to only become a fringe playoff team, that could have been done without a rebuild at all.

We were told it would be a bit of a long and painful process, and it has been. I think we are poised to be right on schedule. Shedding the mediocre coach is a sign that management feels we are ready for the next step.

If Tambi/Lowe bungle the next coach hiring and/or the draft, then i will be more worried, but thus far they have done what they said needed to be done.
You might want to check on just when Florida hired Tallon.

Unless you think he was running the Panthers at the same time he was running the Black Hawks.

Lowe and Tambellini were in charge BEFORE any rebuild talk. In fact, they were the one's that put us in this debacle in the first place. The very need for a rebuild was because of them. But because they "announced" rebuild a couple of years ago, they have carte blanche to bumble their way through coaching staffs, trades and free agent signings all the while the team doesnt improve in the standings despite drafting at the very top of the pyramid.

It baffles me that people are still lining up to defend these bozos.

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