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Old
06-07-2012, 07:50 PM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
BB had a link in her news thread that goes through every move Tamby has made in his tenure.
I'm sure you read it, but maybe some others didn't so I'll copy paste the link here.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...s-he-has-made/

Not saying I agree with all those grades ... but man what a pathetic body of work.
I didn't read it as I remember most of his trades if not all of them. That said the question was how many GM's have made MORE trades than Tambellini? Some fans accuse him of doing nothing, meanwhile he has made a lot of trades.

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06-07-2012, 10:43 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
Obviously many feel differently. We were told this is how is would be and... here we are. Exactly how we knew it was going to happen.

There's nothing to be confused about.
Would this be the times Tambo has stood up to a microphone and said this is a competitive team now. Or when Quinn said he expected the team to compete?

More than any fans in the league we've been sold a perennial false bill of goods.

30, 30, 29? The org told us to expect this? Seriously? bs.

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06-07-2012, 10:48 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Would this be the times Tambo has stood up to a microphone and said this is a competitive team now. Or when Quinn said he expected the team to compete?

More than any fans in the league we've been sold a perennial false bill of goods.

30, 30, 29? The org told us to expect this? Seriously? bs.
"Long", "slow"... Can't remember if "painful" was in there or not, but it was tossed around by everyone here during the 2010 season.

What else were you expecting?

29th, 22nd... who cares?

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06-07-2012, 11:01 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
"Long", "slow"... Can't remember if "painful" was in there or not, but it was tossed around by everyone here during the 2010 season.

What else were you expecting?

29th, 22nd... who cares?
An org maintaining some competitive dignity and not being one of the worst incumbent teams in memory.

The Only clubs ever worse than this in the modern era were either expansion clubs or orgs in severe financial calamity or chaos.

So no, I shouldn't have to expect that an org with every possible competive advantage there is to have should be a chronic last place finisher.

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06-07-2012, 11:11 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
An org maintaining some competitive dignity and not being one of the worst incumbent teams in memory.

The Only clubs ever worse than this in the modern era were either expansion clubs or orgs in severe financial calamity or chaos.

So no, I shouldn't have to expect that an org with every possible competive advantage there is to have should be a chronic last place finisher.
That's great, but it's very clear that most here are in favour of short-term pain for long-term gain, and it's obvious that's what the team has been doing.

Not everyone is going to like it, but it's not like that matters, or should.

What they're doing, overblown dignity ramifications aside, is clearly the best way to the Cup. Acquiring elite talent is something this city, regardless of GM, hasn't been able to do. It's damn near impossible to do through trade, for any team, and it doesn't happen to some teams through free agency.

I understand that to some, a long slow rebuild means 8 months, but it's not realistic and it was never in the best interests of the franchise.

I, for one, and I know many others as well, will not complain at having their best player since Doug Weight on this team, let alone four of them.

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06-07-2012, 11:13 PM
  #281
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This team WAS in financial calamity, that was the mega underlying factor that lead to the demise of the team being competitive.

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06-07-2012, 11:32 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
This team WAS in financial calamity, that was the mega underlying factor that lead to the demise of the team being competitive.
So you're citing a sellout of talent that occurred a dozen years ago for still being the worst team in the league right now?

Thats some damn slow turnaround considering this club got the cap that it wanted all along and that many better clubs were hurt because they had to pare cap.

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06-07-2012, 11:39 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
So you're citing a sellout of talent that occurred a dozen years ago for still being the worst team in the league right now?

Thats some damn slow turnaround considering this club got the cap that it wanted all along and that many better clubs were hurt because they had to pare cap.
Agree - there have been several teams in financial disarray/ownership turmoil that rebounded in much shorter periods of time...

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06-07-2012, 11:41 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
So you're citing a sellout of talent that occurred a dozen years ago for still being the worst team in the league right now?

Thats some damn slow turnaround considering this club got the cap that it wanted all along and that many better clubs were hurt because they had to pare cap.
Katz has owned the team for 12 years? Damn time flies! Prior to Katz we had ownership that did not invest in development, prospect development, etc. Stuff like that takes a toll long term along with poor drafting.

BTW-Who knew that all we needed to do to make 100% sure that our team would never move no matter what was to rename our city Phoenix and call the team the Coyotes?

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06-07-2012, 11:43 PM
  #285
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It was the major underlying factor, yes.

The EIG didn't/couldn't afford to keep the star players here. If it wasn't for the 05/06 stanley cup run, a lot of those investors wouldn't have gotten much sleep.

The 05/06 run was a team of mostly average salary players, and a few key deadline pick ups. I think the only guys making any real money that year were Pronger and Smyth, but correct me if I'm wrong. Pronger was traded immediately after the finals loss and Smyth left town over a contract extension squabble (because EIG couldn't/didn't want to pay his demand for a raise, right?)

Edit: Also thats a good point about the lack of player development a few posts above. The EIG was just a stop-gap solution to keep the team here until a real owner showed up. Katz tried to buy himself a "good" team but the FAs he was fishing for weren't interested.

The team that sucked and lacked competitiveness was the leftovers from the 05/06 team that almost won a cup.

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06-07-2012, 11:46 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Would this be the times Tambo has stood up to a microphone and said this is a competitive team now. Or when Quinn said he expected the team to compete?

More than any fans in the league we've been sold a perennial false bill of goods.

30, 30, 29? The org told us to expect this? Seriously? bs.
About time somebody posted this. In the previous two seasons Tamby stood to the microphone and with a straight face told the faithful that he was going to ice a competitive team and that the goal was to be in the hunt for a playoff spot. Poor Quinn ... you have to wonder about the bill of goods he got sold on to take the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
An org maintaining some competitive dignity and not being one of the worst incumbent teams in memory.

The Only clubs ever worse than this in the modern era were either expansion clubs or orgs in severe financial calamity or chaos.
Another solid point that I've tried to make several times over the past few seasons but people just don't want to hear. The Pens and Hawks (whose "model" we are apparently emulating) were both in serious financial trouble due to ownership failings. Oiler fans on the other hand were told that we now had one of the most financially solvent owners in the game who was going to spend whatever it took to make sure the team didn't disgrace the city and the jersey.

Team went straight into the gutter .... how the **** does that work ?

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06-07-2012, 11:50 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Katz has owned the team for 12 years? Damn time flies! Prior to Katz we had ownership that did not invest in development, prospect development, etc. Stuff like that takes a toll long term along with poor drafting.

BTW-Who knew that all we needed to do to make 100% sure that our team would never move no matter what was to rename our city Phoenix and call the team the Coyotes?
My response was specific to the post I replied to. The sellout of talent occurred a dozen years ago. It didn't occur since then. Note when guys like Weight, Guerin, Cujo, left town. It really is that simple. Theres been no financial calamity, no financial plight since then. The team was fine financially with a reduced cap. The type of cap that several teams have managed to have success with.

This org had every opportunity to start a rebuild at that time and should have. What could possibly be cheaper than a bunch of young players on ELC's

Instead this org decided to stagger to the lockout with middling teams that were never going to accomplish anything. The spend a few years in a mindless daze not knowing what to do after Pronger etal left.

Is there any doubt from anybody that the rebuild SHOULD have started in 2007? What else were we doing?

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06-07-2012, 11:55 PM
  #288
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How do you start a rebuild without a place to develop your young players?
We didn't have our OWN AHL affiliate until 2 years ago when we aquired OKC.
Before that we had to share our prospects with other AHL teams that were 100% more interested in developing their own prospects.
Wasn't there a joke that Edmonton was a development team for the rest of the NHL? Cut your teeth there and then move on to a real pay cheque.

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06-07-2012, 11:57 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
My response was specific to the post I replied to. The sellout of talent occurred a dozen years ago. It didn't occur since then. Note when guys like Weight, Guerin, Cujo, left town. It really is that simple. Theres been no financial calamity, no financial plight since then. The team was fine financially with a reduced cap. The type of cap that several teams have managed to have success with.

This org had every opportunity to start a rebuild at that time and should have. What could possibly be cheaper than a bunch of young players on ELC's

Instead this org decided to stagger to the lockout with middling teams that were never going to accomplish anything. The spend a few years in a mindless daze not knowing what to do after Pronger etal left.

Is there any doubt from anybody that the rebuild SHOULD have started in 2007? What else were we doing?
The Oilers inability to make any significant changes to the product on the ice is the NHL version of "Groundhog Day"...

I believe the Washington Generals made greater strides in the past decade...

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06-07-2012, 11:58 PM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
My response was specific to the post I replied to. The sellout of talent occurred a dozen years ago. It didn't occur since then. Note when guys like Weight, Guerin, Cujo, left town. It really is that simple. Theres been no financial calamity, no financial plight since then. The team was fine financially with a reduced cap. The type of cap that several teams have managed to have success with.

This org had every opportunity to start a rebuild at that time and should have. What could possibly be cheaper than a bunch of young players on ELC's

Instead this org decided to stagger to the lockout with middling teams that were never going to accomplish anything. The spend a few years in a mindless daze not knowing what to do after Pronger etal left.

Is there any doubt from anybody that the rebuild SHOULD have started in 2007? What else were we doing?
Yup, it probably should have. But a trip to the Cup final probably skews opinions a bit. Not many teams exit an appearance in the SCF and then say: "Hey, our team is terrible ... let's rebuild and finish last three years in a row!" That would've went over well.

Anyway, the rebuild didn't happen earlier - or early enough. Those in charge had to learn some tough lessons first (no big game hunting, for example). At least they appeared to learn from their mistakes ... even if it took them a while.

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06-08-2012, 12:00 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
How do you start a rebuild without a place to develop your young players?
We didn't have our OWN AHL affiliate until 2 years ago when we aquired OKC.
Before that we had to share our prospects with other AHL teams that were 100% more interested in developing their own prospects.
Wasn't there a joke that Edmonton was a development team for the rest of the NHL? Cut your teeth there and then move on to a real pay cheque.
Not having proper affiliates isn't a financial consideration. Its the product of managerial idiots that don't realize the contribution that such a system makes.

Theres no reason a well run AHL affiliate needs to be an out and out cash bleeder. Not to mention the team made some damn good coin here off of the Roadrunners in the lockout year.

jebus several teams in worse financial straits than us have had the foresight to maintain a system. If anything the thinking of the braintrust at the time was that they were so damned good at assessing and recruiting talent from anywhere that they didn't need a farm system. We'll just recruit all our talent, look at Europe, a gold mine...The decision had more to do with avarice and arrogance than anything else.

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06-08-2012, 12:20 AM
  #292
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1) They wre so smart that when they couldn't sign fa's they still gave all that money to freaking Horcoff.

2) Edmonton is a less than desireable fa spot in good part to the actions of management over the last 8-10 years.
First point, have the Oil had cap issues because of Horcs contract? No. So who cares..
Second, lets get real. We live in Edmonton. If any of us could earn as good a living in Kelowna, Van, Toronto, Nova Scotia, Panama, Mexico, Thailand, etc etc etc we would not be living here. Unless the Oil were a perenial top 3 team in the league it would still be low on the list of places players want to play. Even then it would be in the bottom 50%. The chances we could have been so good that everyone wanted to be here in a no cap league were 0 so dont talk 8-10 years.

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06-08-2012, 12:26 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Supermullet View Post
Using cap space to acquire assets means that we take on a bad contract along with prospects/picks when a contender needs a salary dump to make a playoff run. See Florida.
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Nowhere in my posts did I advocate big game hunting.

Don't be so foolish as to blindly accept the "our hands are tied, we must finish last for several years" excuse trotted out to the media. It's a pathetic lie from a loser management team.
So now that you have taken on these "bad contracts" to aquire some picks/prospects what do you plan to do when the fab four are up for second contracts? Now you have cap issues. How do you plan to get rid of those bad contracts so you dont have to dump some of your core talent to save money? It is a lot more complicated building a long term winner than you seem to realize.
I dont listen to what management sells. I look at the reality of life in the cap world. You need to build from youth to succeed long term.

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06-08-2012, 12:57 AM
  #294
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[QUOTE=Bryanbryoil;50651821]Katz has owned the team for 12 years? Damn time flies! Prior to Katz we had ownership that did not invest in development, prospect development, etc. Stuff like that takes a toll long term along with poor drafting.



In May 2007, Katz made a $145-million bid to buy the Edmonton Oilers franchise, which the owners of the team, the Edmonton Investors Group (EIG), quickly rejected, stating the team was not for sale.

In July 2007, he made another bid for the Oilers of $185-million, which was turned down by the Edmonton Investment Group (EIG) on August 7, 2007.[5] On December 12, 2007, Katz made an offer of $188-million to the EIG. The Board of the EIG announced in January 2008 that it would again recommend to its shareholders to reject this latest bid.[6]

On January 28, 2008, Katz increased his offer to $200 million and extended the acceptance deadline to February 5, 2008, at which time Katz was notified by the EIG that all its members agreed to sell the Oilers to him, pending league and financial approval.[7] On June 18, 2008, Daryl Katz received the final OK from the National Hockey League to purchase the Edmonton Oilers, and then on July 2, 2008, he was officially announced as the owner of the Edmonton Oilers during a Press Conference at Rexall Place, where he was presented with an Edmonton Oilers Jersey with the number "08" and his last name patched onto the back.

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06-08-2012, 02:26 AM
  #295
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Quote:
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[B]

So now that you have taken on these "bad contracts" to aquire some picks/prospects what do you plan to do when the fab four are up for second contracts? Now you have cap issues. How do you plan to get rid of those bad contracts so you dont have to dump some of your core talent to save money? It is a lot more complicated building a long term winner than you seem to realize.
I dont listen to what management sells. I look at the reality of life in the cap world. You need to build from youth to succeed long term.
What "cap world"? The Edmonton Oilers used to spend 30-32 million a season on players in the late 90's. What's the "cap" basement at for 2012/2013? 50 million? It's absurd.

Bottomline: Folks need to stop referring to the cap like it's some kind of handicap. The new collective bargaining agreement isn't going to bring it back down to sane levels either.

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06-08-2012, 02:31 AM
  #296
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The cap won't be a handicap. If anything, it's a good thing our elite players are going to sign new contracts now as opposed to 3 years ago. The new CBA ****ed over the Hawks and probably the Penguins as well, but Tambo has no excuse there. As the cap system matures, we should be able to keep all our stars along with appropriate support players.

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06-08-2012, 06:22 AM
  #297
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Second, lets get real. We live in Edmonton. If any of us could earn as good a living in Kelowna, Van, Toronto, Nova Scotia, Panama, Mexico, Thailand, etc etc etc we would not be living here.
Uh, I think you're speaking for yourself on this one. Not to mention an odd collection of places.

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06-08-2012, 09:27 AM
  #298
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Laughing at the thought of Quinn saying "we suck and we're aiming for dead last"

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06-08-2012, 10:27 AM
  #299
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Originally Posted by vespa99 View Post
Second, lets get real. We live in Edmonton. If any of us could earn as good a living in Kelowna, Van, Toronto, Nova Scotia, Panama, Mexico, Thailand, etc etc etc we would not be living here. Unless the Oil were a perenial top 3 team in the league it would still be low on the list of places players want to play. Even then it would be in the bottom 50%. The chances we could have been so good that everyone wanted to be here in a no cap league were 0 so dont talk 8-10 years.
I moved back here from Toronto and passed up a job in New York to do it. A lot of people, especially those who grew up in Western Canada, enjoy living here.

I might feel differently if I worked outside though.

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06-08-2012, 10:51 AM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Katz has owned the team for 12 years? Damn time flies! Prior to Katz we had ownership that did not invest in development, prospect development, etc. Stuff like that takes a toll long term along with poor drafting.

BTW-Who knew that all we needed to do to make 100% sure that our team would never move no matter what was to rename our city Phoenix and call the team the Coyotes?
i agree, i still feel that the current regime is just now starting to mop up the mess that was left to them after a decade of bad drafting and finacial restrictions. we still have horcoffian contracts but i still feel that when tambo puts his final stamp on the team it will be a good one. a very good one for a long time. 3 years of ultimate suck with a bright future beats the hell out of 15 years of suck with a couple quick pan flashes. that circle went around 2 or 3 times and didn't work. a full out rebuild was the only way, Pitts did it, Chicago did it and now we have already been through the worst, it will slowly start to go up and then, the next thing we know we will be contending for a cup, perennially.

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