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06-08-2012, 01:07 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
You might want to check on just when Florida hired Tallon.

Unless you think he was running the Panthers at the same time he was running the Black Hawks.

Lowe and Tambellini were in charge BEFORE any rebuild talk. In fact, they were the one's that put us in this debacle in the first place. The very need for a rebuild was because of them. But because they "announced" rebuild a couple of years ago, they have carte blanche to bumble their way through coaching staffs, trades and free agent signings all the while the team doesnt improve in the standings despite drafting at the very top of the pyramid.

It baffles me that people are still lining up to defend these bozos.
I'm sure you've seen this summary of Tambo's moves:

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...s-he-has-made/

When your best 'marks' are for making moves like hiring Quinn/Renny - then again getting good marks for firing Quinn; not resigning Moreau; etc. .... this team is in serious trouble for many years to come.

I knew Tambo was a clown, but when each move is dissected, as in this summary, he is perhaps the worst GM in the league (or Howson). So clearly there is a secret motive to keeping him around; and we all have the ability to see what that is ... 1) he is Kevin's puppet, 2) at the end of this year or next he'll be Kevin's fall guy when Kevin wants his old job back.

Even if a GM job were available in Edmonton, what knowledgeable hockey guy would waste his time coming to this town, just so he could be KLowe's lap dog.

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06-08-2012, 01:07 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
The Cup? It seems your priorities as a fan are different than most.
...we've been a 30th, 30th, 29th place team, I dont get why you guys are talking about cups?

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06-08-2012, 01:09 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by PACKY D ELEPHANT View Post
...we've been a 30th, 30th, 29th place team, I dont get why you guys are talking about cups?
It's getting very difficult to take you seriously. Why are we talking about Cups?

So you are fond of the mediocre years?

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06-08-2012, 01:11 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
Giving a team their best chance at a Cup is "terrible management"?

Why are you so convinced a different GM, apparently any GM, would be able to convince the best players in the game to come to Edmonton? What has changed?
What chance? Do you have a crystal ball, you know something we don't? You have no idea just like the rest of us if this "rebuild" is going to work.

Well lets see the current one has led edmonton for the first time history to its first last place finish, not only that its SECOND last place finish oh and to top things off second last for first time in oilers history, and meanwhile all the time saying at the end of each year were going to be more competitive the next year.

Convinced? How could be it be any worse? If the GM is worse we're still last what difference does it make?

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06-08-2012, 01:13 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
It's getting very difficult to take you seriously. Why are we talking about Cups?

So you are fond of the mediocre years?
Its getting difficult to take you seriously I'm honestly wondering if you even read the post that was in reply to.

I said the blues and phoenix were more successful and didn't need to suck to do it. Our friend shark there said they never a won a cup though, which i replied what did that have to do with anything?

How does winning a cup in the past have to do with sucking now? Considering one team was second in the conference and one was in the Western finals....a hell of a lot closer than the oilers at 29th to the cup...

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06-08-2012, 01:18 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
Giving a team their best chance at a Cup is "terrible management"?

Why are you so convinced a different GM, apparently any GM, would be able to convince the best players in the game to come to Edmonton? What has changed?
The point is we shouldn't have had to pick 1st overall every year for the last 3 years to maybe be a cup contender in 5 years. I mean are we to the point where we needed all 4 of RNH, Hall, Eberle, and Yakupov on top of the youth we already had? Personally I wouldn't have minded finishing a little higher in the standings last year and taking Courturier, then again improving this year and picking Rielly or Reinhart around the 8th spot. I think after last year people said enough with these lotto picks, let's see some improvement and Tambo wasn't able to deliver that. Also he hasn't been able to bring in any vets that's have made a significant impact.(Whitney doesn't count because he's been on the IR more then he's played).

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06-08-2012, 01:19 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by PACKY D ELEPHANT View Post
I agree except tamby hasn't won any, and in fact he probably has the worst GM record standings wise of all time.

I totally agree that you need elite forwards to win a cup, and RNH Hall and Ebs are all great players but they're not generational talents. Pits was very lucky to draft when and where they did, i think it distorts peoples view of what to expect from rebuilds.

and on to that, they have good goalie (- these playoffs), they got pretty good defense and a good coach.

Edmonton lacks all these things, i don't think Tamby can change that, do you?
Yes he does have the worst record, in large part because he was asked to do a scorched earth rebuild.

As I said when he was re-signed, I am not a fan of his work so far, but he wasn't asked to do more than what he has. I can understand why they would want to give the guy that had to wade through the **** a shot at getting us out of it. If we don't show significant progress next season, my bet is he gets the axe.

And our D and G aren't that much worse than Pitts. Sure we need upgrades or internal improvements there but the gap isn't as big as you suggest. Our scoring is much further behind theirs, and that is where our fantastic 4 will help after they mature.

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06-08-2012, 01:21 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
Giving a team their best chance at a Cup is "terrible management"?

Why are you so convinced a different GM, apparently any GM, would be able to convince the best players in the game to come to Edmonton? What has changed?
Ah, so finishing 30th, 30th, 29th in other words, is "giving a team their best chance at a cup". That works for drafting #1 overall, but a good GM can certainly do other things to improve the talent as well. A team placed 30th in the league can take risks that other teams can't, as well use the waiver draft to pick first.

Lowetide makes a point in this article http://lowetide.ca/blog/2012/06/a-ra...tmus-test.html. There are young quality players out there that could have been picked up for free, or for a song: for example Blake Comeau, Brandon Yip, Grant Clitsome. Are they elite? no. Could they improve the roster? Possibly.

It's how the Oilers managed to pick up a young Steve Staios, Jason Smith, etc. Cam Barker is a good example of a failed attempt. I don't begrudge the Oilers for trying Cam Barker - a young player that was a high end draft pick. I begrudge the Oilers for expecting Cam Barker to play top 4 role at the start of the season.

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06-08-2012, 01:23 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Yes he does have the worst record, in large part because he was asked to do a scorched earth rebuild.

As I said when he was re-signed, I am not a fan of his work so far, but he wasn't asked to do more than what he has. I can understand why they would want to give the guy that had to wade through the **** a shot at getting us out of it. If we don't show significant progress next season, my bet is he gets the axe.

And our D and G aren't that much worse than Pitts. Sure we need upgrades or internal improvements there but the gap isn't as big as you suggest. Our scoring is much further behind theirs, and that is where our fantastic 4 will help after they mature.

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06-08-2012, 01:25 PM
  #335
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Yes he does have the worst record, in large part because he was asked to do a scorched earth rebuild.

As I said when he was re-signed, I am not a fan of his work so far, but he wasn't asked to do more than what he has. I can understand why they would want to give the guy that had to wade through the **** a shot at getting us out of it. If we don't show significant progress next season, my bet is he gets the axe.

And our D and G aren't that much worse than Pitts. Sure we need upgrades or internal improvements there but the gap isn't as big as you suggest. Our scoring is much further behind theirs, and that is where our fantastic 4 will help after they mature.
This blog sums his work up quite well:

http://www.blackdoghatesskunks.com/2...ambellini.html

The Gap is bigger than you think, but the proof will come this year once the team finishes bottom 5 again.

I can honestly see the Oilers finishing 28-30th this year, particularly IF Howson finds a decent goalie. Mason went from all-star to chump, and if he can return to form we are once again basement dwellers.

Honestly, as much as you think the Oilers will move up the standings, they will have to pass the NYI, Montreal, Toronto etc. to do so. The NYI youth will improve just like the Oilers. Toronto had goaltending issues that may be resolved this summer, and Montreal just had a 'bad' year. Perhaps we could pass Minny, but now that they've added a solid puck moving minute muncher (we got ***** in this trade) in Tom Gilbert, they could very well improve.

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06-08-2012, 01:26 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Ah, so finishing 30th, 30th, 29th in other words, is "giving a team their best chance at a cup". That works for drafting #1 overall, but a good GM can certainly do other things to improve the talent as well. A team placed 30th in the league can take risks that other teams can't, as well use the waiver draft to pick first.

Lowetide makes a point in this article http://lowetide.ca/blog/2012/06/a-ra...tmus-test.html. There are young quality players out there that could have been picked up for free, or for a song: for example Blake Comeau, Brandon Yip, Grant Clitsome. Are they elite? no. Could they improve the roster? Possibly.

It's how the Oilers managed to pick up a young Steve Staios, Jason Smith, etc. Cam Barker is a good example of a failed attempt. I don't begrudge the Oilers for trying Cam Barker - a young player that was a high end draft pick. I begrudge the Oilers for expecting Cam Barker to play top 4 role at the start of the season.
So this is what it's come to? Whining about us not claiming Comeau, Yip, or Clitsome? Meanwhile many bloggers still shat on Tambo's last waiver claim Jones and predicted his massive plummet in goals last year (how did that work out?). Fault him for not claiming Grabner, but give me a break on the rest, we already had a stocked forward group so why add Comeau or Yip?

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06-08-2012, 01:41 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Pitts allowed 221 goals last year to our 239. 18 goal difference. We scored 212 goals last year to Pitts 282. 60 goal difference. Like I said, our D and G are worse and need to improve, but the scoring gap was far bigger than the GA gap.

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Originally Posted by Gone View Post
This blog sums his work up quite well:

http://www.blackdoghatesskunks.com/2...ambellini.html

The Gap is bigger than you think, but the proof will come this year once the team finishes bottom 5 again.

I can honestly see the Oilers finishing 28-30th this year, particularly IF Howson finds a decent goalie. Mason went from all-star to chump, and if he can return to form we are once again basement dwellers.

Honestly, as much as you think the Oilers will move up the standings, they will have to pass the NYI, Montreal, Toronto etc. to do so. The NYI youth will improve just like the Oilers. Toronto had goaltending issues that may be resolved this summer, and Montreal just had a 'bad' year. Perhaps we could pass Minny, but now that they've added a solid puck moving minute muncher (we got ***** in this trade) in Tom Gilbert, they could very well improve.
I am not sure the Oilers improve that much next season. I think it is possible, depending on the moves we make this summer, but we could be in a lottery position again next year. And if that happens Tambo will likely be let go.

But it isn't written in stone that we'll suck again either. If we sign Shultz + another legit D-man like Allen, Jackman, or Garrison and draft a potential 30/30 guy in Yakupov, so long as Dubnyk doesn't completely **** the bed, we could be playing some meaningful games in March. To me that is what we should be shooting for next season. Whether Tambo is the guy to get it done, I don't know. But I support giving him a chance at it.

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06-08-2012, 01:42 PM
  #338
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Yes he does have the worst record, in large part because he was asked to do a scorched earth rebuild.

As I said when he was re-signed, I am not a fan of his work so far, but he wasn't asked to do more than what he has. I can understand why they would want to give the guy that had to wade through the **** a shot at getting us out of it. If we don't show significant progress next season, my bet is he gets the axe.

And our D and G aren't that much worse than Pitts. Sure we need upgrades or internal improvements there but the gap isn't as big as you suggest. Our scoring is much further behind theirs, and that is where our fantastic 4 will help after they mature.
Honestly? Fleury has one bad playoff and suddenly he is a piece of garbage? Tell me you wouldn't trade Dubnyk for him.

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06-08-2012, 01:48 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Pitts allowed 221 goals last year to our 239. 18 goal difference. We scored 212 goals last year to Pitts 282. 60 goal difference. Like I said, our D and G are worse and need to improve, but the scoring gap was far bigger than the GA gap.



I am not sure the Oilers improve that much next season. I think it is possible, depending on the moves we make this summer, but we could be in a lottery position again next year. And if that happens Tambo will likely be let go.

But it isn't written in stone that we'll suck again either. If we sign Shultz + another legit D-man like Allen, Jackman, or Garrison and draft a potential 30/30 guy in Yakupov, so long as Dubnyk doesn't completely **** the bed, we could be playing some meaningful games in March. To me that is what we should be shooting for next season. Whether Tambo is the guy to get it done, I don't know. But I support giving him a chance at it.
Pittsburghs top 5 d men would all be 1st pairing guys in Edmonton. Also since you like comparing the stats how many points did the Pittsburgh defense score compared to the Oilers? Offense doesn't just come from the forwards, on good teams the offense is generated from the backend.

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06-08-2012, 01:50 PM
  #340
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Honestly? Fleury has one bad playoff and suddenly he is a piece of garbage? Tell me you wouldn't trade Dubnyk for him.
I wouldn't trade Dubnyk for him given his contract. He didn't just have a bad playoff, he had a disastrously bad playoff. He is much more volatile than Luongo, I am shocked that so many people give him a pass.

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06-08-2012, 01:53 PM
  #341
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Honestly? Fleury has one bad playoff and suddenly he is a piece of garbage? Tell me you wouldn't trade Dubnyk for him.
I explained the rationale for that statement above.

As for whether I'd trade Dubnyk for Fleury, probably, but not certainly.

Last 2 years, Dubnyk has had 0.916 and 0.914 SV% and 2.71 and 2.67 GAA. Fleury has had 0.918 and 0.913 SV% and 2.32 and 2.36 GAA on a much better team. Now is that improvement worth the extra 3-3.5M that Fleury will likely cost? I am not sure.

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06-08-2012, 01:53 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Pitts allowed 221 goals last year to our 239. 18 goal difference. We scored 212 goals last year to Pitts 282. 60 goal difference. Like I said, our D and G are worse and need to improve, but the scoring gap was far bigger than the GA gap.



I am not sure the Oilers improve that much next season. I think it is possible, depending on the moves we make this summer, but we could be in a lottery position again next year. And if that happens Tambo will likely be let go.

But it isn't written in stone that we'll suck again either. If we sign Shultz + another legit D-man like Allen, Jackman, or Garrison and draft a potential 30/30 guy in Yakupov, so long as Dubnyk doesn't completely **** the bed, we could be playing some meaningful games in March. To me that is what we should be shooting for next season. Whether Tambo is the guy to get it done, I don't know. But I support giving him a chance at it.
Shultz would be a dream signing, but suspect he ends up in Toronto. He could be a difference maker if he play's the way Larsson has for New Jersey.

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06-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #343
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Shultz would be a dream signing, but suspect he ends up in Toronto. He could be a difference maker if he play's the way Larsson has for New Jersey.
I'm crossing my fingers that the rumors are true, and that he wants to sign here.

This would open the UFA gates to Edmonton IMO.

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06-08-2012, 02:00 PM
  #344
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Pittsburghs top 5 d men would all be 1st pairing guys in Edmonton. Also since you like comparing the stats how many points did the Pittsburgh defense score compared to the Oilers? Offense doesn't just come from the forwards, on good teams the offense is generated from the backend.
And yet with 5 guys that would be top pairing d-men here according to you, they still only allowed 18 less goals all year. Odd. Incidentally, which 5 do you mean?

Martin
Michalek
Orpik
Letang
Engelland
Lovejoy
Niskanen
Strait

I don't disagree at all about offense from the D, there they kicked our ass. To me the big difference between our D is Letang. We have no one even close to him. Perhaps if we get very lucky, Schultz will sign here and can be our poor man's answer to him. But apart from Letang, the rest of their D doesn't scream anything beyond "pretty solid" to me.

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Shultz would be a dream signing, but suspect he ends up in Toronto. He could be a difference maker if he play's the way Larsson has for New Jersey.
TO is a definite possibility. I was just throwing him our there because of the recent rumours. But my point remains that if we can add 2 NHL d-men(one being a puck mover/PP guy) and add some secondary scoring in Yakupov, we could be in the hunt for the last playoff spot come mid march. Now we'll have to see if Tambo can pull that off.

But if we did get Schultz, I would expect him to provide more offense and less defense than Larsson did for the Devils this season.

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06-08-2012, 02:12 PM
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And yet with 5 guys that would be top pairing d-men here according to you, they still only allowed 18 less goals all year. Odd. Incidentally, which 5 do you mean?

Martin
Michalek
Orpik
Letang
Engelland
Lovejoy
Niskanen
Strait

I don't disagree at all about offense from the D, there they kicked our ass. To me the big difference between our D is Letang. We have no one even close to him. Perhaps if we get very lucky, Schultz will sign here and can be our poor man's answer to him. But apart from Letang, the rest of their D doesn't scream anything beyond "pretty solid" to me.
Orpik, Martin, Michalek, Letang, Niskanen would all be top pairing in Edmonton IMO. On top of that they also have guys like Depres and Morrow coming up. The only defensemen currently playing in Edmonton that I see on a championship team are Smid, Petry, and Schultz with all 3 of them being in the bottom 4 of a championship caliber defense. So I believe were 2-3 solid defenders away from having a above average defense and Dubnyk needs to play more then 60 games in a season and keep a solid GAA and SA% before this team will be ready to compete for anything.

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06-08-2012, 02:19 PM
  #346
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Orpik, Martin, Michalek, Letang, Niskanen would all be top pairing in Edmonton IMO. On top of that they also have guys like Depres and Morrow coming up. The only defensemen currently playing in Edmonton that I see on a championship team are Smid, Petry, and Schultz with all 3 of them being in the bottom 4 of a championship caliber defense. So I believe were 2-3 solid defenders away from having a above average defense and Dubnyk needs to play more then 60 games in a season and keep a solid GAA and SA% before this team will be ready to compete for anything.
Well we'll have to agree to disagree on how much better the 5 you listed are. Letang, Michalek and perhaps Orpik I could agree with. And if we are including prospects, we've got some potential good ones in the pipeline as well(Klefbom, Marincin, Gernat, Musil)

And I agree completely on your last point. We need 2 NHL d-men added and Dubnyk to take the next step for us to be in the playoff race next season. I have been saying that since the season ended. Hopefully Tambo can get that done.

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06-08-2012, 02:26 PM
  #347
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Well we'll have to agree to disagree on how much better the 5 you listed are. Letang, Michalek and perhaps Orpik I could agree with. And if we are including prospects, we've got some potential good ones in the pipeline as well(Klefbom, Marincin, Gernat, Musil)

And I agree completely on your last point. We need 2 NHL d-men added and Dubnyk to take the next step for us to be in the playoff race next season. I have been saying that since the season ended. Hopefully Tambo can get that done.
How is Martin not top pairing in Edmonton? He had more points then any of Edmonton's d-men and is solid defensively. He'd be our best defenseman overall and it wouldn't be close. Niskanen could be questionable as to whether he'd beat out Petry for that top pairing spot, but there's no doubt he'd be on the second pairing here.

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06-08-2012, 02:27 PM
  #348
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First you complain about how our inept management can't field a winning team.
Now you're complaining they couldn't get picks/prospects out of our junk, which wouldn't have made our team any better in the short term anyway.
Couple that with the fact that you're wrong, because we were able to get several picks out of our trades and not all 5/6/7's either (a few seconds, a few thirds, and an extra first).
And the Oilers arguably have one of the best prospect pools in the NHL, so tell me again what point you're trying to make?

Thanks for coming out, bud.
No, read my posts again. I advocate using our cap space to acquire a salary dump plus picks or prospects from teams who are making a cup run.

The purpose of this is to use the leftover money under the cap to our team's advantage, and not have it line Katz's pockets year after year. To take a chance on some up and coming talent or overlooked contributors that a talent-rich team deems expendable.

Waive players like Hordichuk and Potter to make room. Keep prospects like Omark, Paajarvi, Lander and Hartikainen in the AHL to develop.

We do have a decent prospect pool, but guys like Pitlick, Marincin and Gernat are years away from joining the team, nevermind making an impact in the show. We need to start finding useful players right now, not long after the next generation has arrived and we're still at the bottom of the league.

Get my points, friend? Understand that there's more than the religious "throw up our hands, draft high and wait" garbage that you've bought into? No? Multi-year extension, you say?

Awesome.

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06-08-2012, 02:35 PM
  #349
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How is Martin not top pairing in Edmonton? He had more points then any of Edmonton's d-men and is solid defensively. He'd be our best defenseman overall and it wouldn't be close. Niskanen could be questionable as to whether he'd beat out Petry for that top pairing spot, but there's no doubt he'd be on the second pairing here.
If Martin is as great as you say, why are all Pittsburgh fans trying to dump him? I liked him in NJ but I think he was underwhelming in the Penguins games I watched. And this is my last post about the Pens because I am taking the thread off topic. I've explained my position, if you'd like to keep debating it, we can do it via PM.

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06-08-2012, 02:40 PM
  #350
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Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
How is Martin not top pairing in Edmonton? He had more points then any of Edmonton's d-men and is solid defensively. He'd be our best defenseman overall and it wouldn't be close. Niskanen could be questionable as to whether he'd beat out Petry for that top pairing spot, but there's no doubt he'd be on the second pairing here.
Ray Ferraro is a good judge of talent:


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