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06-10-2012, 04:41 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Are you serious with those links? Thats revisionist. What you Should be posting to support your conclusion that this team INTENTIONALLY adopted a clear scorched earth policy is to quote those statements made in say 2009, or 2010 when one would think such a *plan* would've been formulated.

To post something stated AFTER 3 failed seasons says nothing about what the club was stating and thinking in real time. i.e. you can't state something as a tank plan after the fact can you? Well not with an expectation of being taken seriously.

Tambo 2012: Oh sorry, we meant to be that bad, really we did, serious, have patience, sorry, oh but enjoy the increased ticket prices every year we've been tanking..
Did you actually read the links Replacement?

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...-accomplished/

Quote:
There’s another tendency in some other quarters to remind fans that the rebuild has not been going on for six years, but that rather only 2-1/2 years have passed since the rebuild was declared. Based on that timetable, where the Oilers are today is easy to defend and the organization’s long-term plan comes across as more sensible.

Both tendencies are understandable, and both contain valid points. Neither, by itself, tells the full story.

Regarding the first point, it’s important to remember that the Oilers really weren’t any more visionary than the Flames. In the summer of 2009, the Oilers were trying to do what they’d been doing for years, and what the Flames appear to be doing now: getting better in an effort to make the playoffs. The team made a big pitch for Dany Heatley, and were lucky enough to have Heatley refuse to waive his no-trade clause to go to Edmonton (though at the time, this was regarded as anything but lucky). At the same time, the Oilers managed to snag Nikolai Khabibulin with a four-year, $15-million contract. They also brought in aged coach Pat Quinn to light a fire under the club. These were not the decisions of a rebuilding team.

Things backfired terribly; some injuries and poor performances led the Oilers to the NHL basement. Midway through 2009-10, the Oilers decided to launch a full-blown rebuild. It’s important to note that timing. The rebuild was not the result of vision and planning; it was the result of a failure of vision and planning.

On the second point, it certainly isn’t fair to blame general manager Steve Tambellini for things that happened before his arrival. The Oilers failures from the Pronger trade up to the summer of 2009 (though Tambellini was hired in the summer of 2008, Kevin Lowe built most of the 2008-09 team) were not really his fault. Given Lowe’s continued employment by the Oilers, it’s understandable that fans occasionally point to the long-term picture, but it isn’t fair to Tambellini or even to Daryl Katz (who officially landed the team in July of 2008) to blame them for things that happened before their time in Edmonton.

With that said, it also isn’t right to ignore the benefits the Oilers received from their pre-rebuild teams. Jordan Eberle was a product of the Chris Pronger trade, as was Ladislav Smid. Sam Gagner was drafted back in 2007; Jeff Petry in 2006. The Magnus Paajarvi, Anton Lander and Teemu Hartikainen acquisitions also pre-date the rebuild.

These are all facts that I take into consideration when evaluating the successes and failures of the rebuild. I think the Oilers organization made the right decision, midway through 2009-10, to stay in the basement for a few years rather than to attempt an immediate resurgence. The latter almost certainly would not have been successful, while the benefits of the former course of action are obvious. Given that it was dramatic failure that led to the rebuild, however, I have difficulty giving much credit to Steve Tambellini for making the obvious choice
The decision to do the scorched Earth rebuild was an obvious one for Katz/Lowe/Tambo to make in light of that horrible season. 2009/10 didn't start out with those intentions, but they sure as hell ended up with a plan to go that route midway through the season.

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06-10-2012, 04:57 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Pennertration View Post
Did he though? They had a really good year this season, but if they don't make playoffs next year, have his moves been worth it?

Also, why does the Oilers timeline have to be the same as Florida's? Because we're less patient?
What people forget is Florida missed the play-offs for 10 years before they made it this season. Remember Talon screwed up those 9 RFAs when he was in Chicago and was then forced to pay more because of it.

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06-10-2012, 04:57 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Tambo stating after the fact: "Oh we meant to suck these last few years, really we did" is not evidence of the org having a plan, a clue, and should be taken with zero credibility.
If what you're saying is true, then this is the first you've heard of this rebuild? Only now, after a few years a the bottom?

If not, I'd say that puts an end to any "revisionist" talk, no?

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06-10-2012, 05:02 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Pennertration View Post
You realize that a likely scenario for most companies/organizations is to have multiple plans in place. That way they can adjust on the fly, as need be.

In the case of an NHL team, you'd have to adjust your plans based on the actual performance of the team.

I'll see what I can find for timelines and discussion on the rebuild, but I don't see why the links I provided are so implausible.

Also, it's unlikely that a team would share all its intentions, plans, inner workings with the public. So, you can discount what they said their plans were or you have to trust a bit that they're not lying about what their plans were/are. I do think there are times where it makes sense to question what the team says, but I also think the timelines quoted in most media stories seem to add up and make sense.

But if we can't agree on that, we're going to have very little common ground to start from.
Your whole argument in defense of Tambo is that there was prior INTENT to adopt a scorched Earth policy and to purposely tank. In your argument you've assumed that there was such prior intent. You haven't established that there was prior intent.
You further argue Tambo being a good or above average manager on the basis of completing an alledged assignment really well. Without knowing there ever was such an assignment.

So we won't come to any agreement on this.

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06-10-2012, 05:02 PM
  #430
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“What happened this past season, made it very clear to me that now is our opportunity to rebuild, when I say rebuild, this is a major rebuild.”
– Daryl Katz 2010

Quote:
Stauffer asked about rebuilding by acquiring elite players through the draft.

Katz went on to say: “The fact is rebuilding takes time and it’s only possible to rebuild if you have a loyal fan base who are prepared to stick with that strategy. Many teams in the league don’t have the opportunity to rebuild. I think, as I said, It’s only because of our fanbase that we have the opportunity to take this step and that’s exactly what we’re going to do.”

Tambi has the complete green light to do whatever he thinks is necessary to rebuild the hockey club. Injuries aside, what we have today is not working that's clear, I expect, and we should all expect some changes
Feb 11th 2010 interview

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ating-rebuild/
(interview summary)

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/podcastpl...d=98&iid=20203

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=517276

It's a bad interview - clearly scripted - but given the team hasn't aquired anything more than bottom 6 defensemen and 4th liners in the last 3 years outside of the draft picks(besides reluctantly trading for Smyth). I'm not sure how anyone can think the rebuild isn't pre-meditated as this point.

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06-10-2012, 05:04 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Booya42 View Post
Did you actually read the links Replacement?

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...-accomplished/



The decision to do the scorched Earth rebuild was an obvious one for Katz/Lowe/Tambo to make in light of that horrible season. 2009/10 didn't start out with those intentions, but they sure as hell ended up with a plan to go that route midway through the season.
With all due respect you're having trouble differentiating from the columnists editorial comment and actual quotes from management. Also that the referenced quotes from management in those articles are current, this season, this year, quotes.

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06-10-2012, 05:06 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
If what you're saying is true, then this is the first you've heard of this rebuild? Only now, after a few years a the bottom?

If not, I'd say that puts an end to any "revisionist" talk, no?
Yeah I musta missed that the Oilers were going after Khabi, Souray, Penner, Heatley, Vanek etc. but really their real, real, intent with an asterisk was to actually suck.

Or maybe I actually evaluate critically and call bs on the notion that this club ever had a plan.

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06-10-2012, 05:15 PM
  #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
– Daryl Katz 2010



Feb 11th 2010 interview

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ating-rebuild/
(interview summary)

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/podcastpl...d=98&iid=20203

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=517276

It's a bad interview - clearly scripted - but given the team hasn't aquired anything more than bottom 6 defensemen and 4th liners in the last 3 years outside of the draft picks(besides reluctantly trading for Smyth). I'm not sure how anyone can think the rebuild isn't pre-meditated as this point.
Some people aren't very good at connecting dots?

Some people take delight in proving that nothing is proveable to the point of absolute certainty given the parameters of what constitutes proof under the modern scientific method?

Some people just like to be boorish and contrarian?

I'm sure there are others.

None are flattering.

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06-10-2012, 05:19 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Yeah I musta missed that the Oilers were going after Khabi, Souray, Penner, Heatley, Vanek etc. but really their real, real, intent with an asterisk was to actually suck.

Or maybe I actually evaluate critically and call bs on the notion that this club ever had a plan.
"Tambo stating after the fact: "Oh we meant to suck these last few years, really we did" is not evidence of the org having a plan, a clue, and should be taken with zero credibility."

"Last few years" would mean we're just hearing about this now, and obviously that's not the case.

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06-10-2012, 05:21 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by theoil View Post
Some people aren't very good at connecting dots?

Some people take delight in proving that nothing is proveable to the point of absolute certainty given the parameters of what constitutes proof under the modern scientific method?

Some people just like to be boorish and contrarian?

I'm sure there are others.

None are flattering.
Project much?

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06-10-2012, 05:23 PM
  #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
– Daryl Katz 2010



Feb 11th 2010 interview

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ating-rebuild/
(interview summary)

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/podcastpl...d=98&iid=20203

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=517276

It's a bad interview - clearly scripted - but given the team hasn't aquired anything more than bottom 6 defensemen and 4th liners in the last 3 years outside of the draft picks(besides reluctantly trading for Smyth). I'm not sure how anyone can think the rebuild isn't pre-meditated as this point.
Finally some useful links and thank you for actually properly addressing the questions I was poising regqrding a stated plan by the org. Without a doubt the best reply to any of the questions poised.

Again thank you for this digging.

As to premeditation it was my take that it "meditation" rather than "premeditation" The Katz quote which I hadn't heard before is closer to the smoking gun. That quote is a game changer. I stand corrected.


Last edited by Replacement: 06-10-2012 at 05:28 PM.
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06-10-2012, 05:23 PM
  #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
– Daryl Katz 2010



Feb 11th 2010 interview

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ating-rebuild/
(interview summary)

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/podcastpl...d=98&iid=20203

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=517276

It's a bad interview - clearly scripted - but given the team hasn't aquired anything more than bottom 6 defensemen and 4th liners in the last 3 years outside of the draft picks(besides reluctantly trading for Smyth). I'm not sure how anyone can think the rebuild isn't pre-meditated as this point.
It does seem rather interesting that after trying to acquire Heatley, who at the time was considered a superstar or very close, for practically nothing, Katz says "rebuild", and all of a sudden they're not trying to land any big ones.

Just a coincidence? Or evidence of a plan? Seems clear.

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06-10-2012, 05:33 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Project much?
No.

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06-10-2012, 05:33 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Finally some useful links and thank you for actually properly addressing the questions I was poising regqrding a stated plan by the org. Without a doubt the best reply to any of the questions poised.

Again thank you for this digging.

As to premeditation it was my take that it "meditation" rather than "premeditation" The Katz quote which I hadn't heard before is closer to the smoking gun. That quote is a game changer. I stand corrected.
You're welcome.

It's always a bit of a pain sifting through everything unless you have a good idea of the what and when of the item you are looking for.


Last edited by Tarus: 06-10-2012 at 05:38 PM.
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06-10-2012, 05:34 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Your whole argument in defense of Tambo is that there was prior INTENT to adopt a scorched Earth policy and to purposely tank. In your argument you've assumed that there was such prior intent. You haven't established that there was prior intent.
You further argue Tambo being a good or above average manager on the basis of completing an alledged assignment really well. Without knowing there ever was such an assignment.

So we won't come to any agreement on this.
Well, there certainly wasn't intent when Tambo signed Khabibulin or during the Heatley hunt or the signing of Souray - or at least not clear and obvious intent. If there was intent at that point, Tambo is smarter than I thought.

I don't know how to make it any clearer that in 2010, a team decision was made to rebuild (ie, tank). That seems clear in team statements and decisions, especially right before and/or after Hall was drafted.

How far in advance of the rebuild did they have to announce their intentions to satisfy whatever this is your pursuing? You seem to need things laid out in your own particular way and if they aren't, then you just can't accept them.

Regarding Tambo's assignment, do you think he acted unilaterally in rebuilding the team or do you think there may have been some consultation within the team and with ownership about rebuilding? Or do you just not think an actual rebuild is underway?

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06-10-2012, 05:43 PM
  #441
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Well, there certainly wasn't intent when Tambo signed Khabibulin or during the Heatley hunt or the signing of Souray - or at least not clear and obvious intent. If there was intent at that point, Tambo is smarter than I thought.

I don't know how to make it any clearer that in 2010, a team decision was made to rebuild (ie, tank). That seems clear in team statements and decisions, especially right before and/or after Hall was drafted.

How far in advance of the rebuild did they have to announce their intentions to satisfy whatever this is your pursuing? You seem to need things laid out in your own particular way and if they aren't, then you just can't accept them.

Regarding Tambo's assignment, do you think he acted unilaterally in rebuilding the team or do you think there may have been some consultation within the team and with ownership about rebuilding? Or do you just not think an actual rebuild is underway?
Tarus has already made it clear with his links which were importantly links from that time period. The thing is when the 2009-10 season started the purpose clearly wasn't to tank, but the team ended up in last place. Tambo made misleading comments since about the teams competitiveness and including this season where he expected the team to be able to compete and it didn't.

But again the Katz quote above is huge. Thats the kind of thing I was looking for, quotes from 2009 or 10.

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06-10-2012, 05:44 PM
  #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
– Daryl Katz 2010



Feb 11th 2010 interview

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ating-rebuild/
(interview summary)

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/podcastpl...d=98&iid=20203

http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=517276

It's a bad interview - clearly scripted - but given the team hasn't aquired anything more than bottom 6 defensemen and 4th liners in the last 3 years outside of the draft picks(besides reluctantly trading for Smyth). I'm not sure how anyone can think the rebuild isn't pre-meditated as this point.
Nice digging there Tarus!

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06-10-2012, 05:45 PM
  #443
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No.
Well its odd that you claim I'm boorish when you saw fit to initiate a string of strawman assumptions out of nowhere. Whatever floats your boat.

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06-10-2012, 05:48 PM
  #444
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Tarus has already made it clear with his links where were importantly links from that time period. The thing is when the 2009-10 season started the purpose clearly wasn't to tank, but the team ended up in last place. Tambo made misleading comments since about the teams competitiveness and including this season where he expected the team to be able to compete and it didn't.

But again the Katz quote above is huge. Thats the kind of thing I was looking for, quotes from 2009 or 10.
Every team that doesn't make playoffs or doesn't win the Stanley Cup makes "misleading comments" about the season ahead and the team's competitiveness. It's called marketing and PR. Even if you think the team is gonna be crap, you can't say that. It's poor leadership and, frankly, I can't see the benefit in saying "this team is gonna suck" heading into - or even during - the season. I guess it would lower expectations for the fans, but do they really need that. Most fans can read roster sheets.

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06-10-2012, 05:50 PM
  #445
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Flawlessly "purposefully tanking" while announcing publicly that he expects to compete, firing coaches, and spending near the cap.

Makes sense. If I were Katz I'd at least maybe ask him to stop wasting my money if the goal is to be incompetent on purpose.

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06-10-2012, 05:52 PM
  #446
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Every team that doesn't make playoffs or doesn't win the Stanley Cup makes "misleading comments" about the season ahead and the team's competitiveness. It's called marketing and PR. Even if you think the team is gonna be crap, you can't say that. It's poor leadership and, frankly, I can't see the benefit in saying "this team is gonna suck" heading into - or even during - the season. I guess it would lower expectations for the fans, but do they really need that. Most fans can read roster sheets.
Well we all can. But when we have a manager stating where he thinks a Cam Barker will fit in top 4 or what an Eager will accomplish here and that he thinks he's fielding a competitive team it does create some doubt.

Also I disagree with the PR. I FAR prefer the honesty that Katz offered in the quote given. I want the truth, not window dressing and false promise.

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06-10-2012, 06:19 PM
  #447
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Well its odd that you claim I'm boorish when you saw fit to initiate a string of strawman assumptions out of nowhere. Whatever floats your boat.
I didn't waste everybody's time on an argument you knew had no validity for no reason other than to indulge your desire (need?) to be the centre of attention.

And the old 'strawman assumptions' argument isn't worth a pinch of pig poop. A poster asked what might account for unaccountable behaviour and I gave a list of possibilities.

I'd say they all cut a little close to the bone and that is why you are annoyed.

See how easy it is to do that hack, trendy psychological analysis thingy you like to do so much?

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06-10-2012, 06:26 PM
  #448
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Well we all can. But when we have a manager stating where he thinks a Cam Barker will fit in top 4 or what an Eager will accomplish here and that he thinks he's fielding a competitive team it does create some doubt.

Also I disagree with the PR. I FAR prefer the honesty that Katz offered in the quote given. I want the truth, not window dressing and false promise.
What good does it do Cam Barker to sign him and then have your GM say he sucks? As for Eager, I'm a fan and think he's really good when he's on, so I'm not sure I'd disagree with the praise Tambo threw his way.

And all teams are potentially competitive before every season - heck, the Oilers were competitive at the start of the season.

As for the PR, I also prefer honesty, but I understand that marketing and PR serve a purpose and you need to hype things up if your a sports team - no matter how dire things look. You can always find something positive on every team to highlight, if you look hard enough (just as you can find something negative with the best teams). The marketing team has posters to print, ads to create and tickets to sell. And many of the fans are casual fans who don't necessarily know - or care - how good or bad the team is.

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06-10-2012, 06:32 PM
  #449
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I didn't waste everybody's time on an argument you knew had no validity for no reason other than to indulge your desire (need?) to be the centre of attention.

And the old 'strawman assumptions' argument isn't worth a pinch of pig poop. A poster asked what might account for unaccountable behaviour and I gave a list of possibilities.

I'd say they all cut a little close to the bone and that is why you are annoyed.

See how easy it is to do that hack, trendy psychological analysis thingy you like to do so much?
I take it you have some persisting issue. No, nothing cutting to the bone. You flatter yourself.

As to the bolded I was arguing in good faith. I didn't know Katz had stated as far back as 2010 what Tarus linked. I think thats a valuable statement for the org to make about its plan to its fans. I never heard that quote. Tambo on the other hand blows smoke up the fanbase every year saying its going to be a competitive team. Should he not be called on that?

In anycase I've acknowledged where I was wrong in this thread discussion and stand corrected. Anything else?

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06-10-2012, 06:41 PM
  #450
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I take it you have some persisting issue. No, nothing cutting to the bone. You flatter yourself.

As to the bolded I was arguing in good faith. I didn't know Katz had stated as far back as 2010 what Tarus linked. I think thats a valuable statement for the org to make about its plan to its fans. I never heard that quote. Tambo on the other hand blows smoke up the fanbase every year saying its going to be a competitive team. Should he not be called on that?

In anycase I've acknowledged where I was wrong in this thread discussion and stand corrected. Anything else?
How anybody could be on this board and not know that the team had embarked on a rebuild defies belief imo.

I think attention seeking syndrome (a.s.s.) is a reasonable diagnosis.

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