HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Marty Lapointe named Director of Player Development

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-06-2012, 02:41 PM
  #51
SaskRinkRat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Yeah. Not good.

A large management group is a good idea, but Bergevin keeps hiring his buddies. He needs to broaden the types of voices he has in his management team. It's starting to look like a giant echo chamber right now.
As counter-intuitive as this might sound, I'd really like to see them start hiring some people that have never played professional hockey. Some people that know the game, but bring an academic perspective not tainted (in any way, positively or negatively) by having been around the game for a long time.

SaskRinkRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:42 PM
  #52
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,560
vCash: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
We just hired a new GM, and it's not him. Don't expect anything will be a selling point for him to stay, he's going to keep doing the great work until he's approached by another organization.
It will never be him here, which I'm sure he knows. Still, at this point his job last year is a promotion if any other team offers it.

Why do we need all these guys anyway? Like I said, people will say "yay, more is better" but really, do we need it? Someone else might say "more can't hurt"...I actually feel it can.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:42 PM
  #53
Rise from the Ashes
Price defies corsi
 
Rise from the Ashes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Pointe-Claire, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,098
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Rise from the Ashes
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Isn't this slightly overkill? I mean sounds good and all but Timmins' role really got shafted. I know we like to say "now he can focus on scouting!" but at same time, I'm 100% certain Timmins said he wants to be a GM one day. Reducing his roles until he's a pure scout isn't exactly a selling point of keeping him here.
Communication is paramount with Bergevin and I am certain he consulted Timmins before hiring Mellanby and Lapointe.

Rise from the Ashes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:44 PM
  #54
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,255
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
As counter-intuitive as this might sound, I'd really like to see them start hiring some people that have never played professional hockey. Some people that know the game, but bring an academic perspective not tainted (in any way, positively or negatively) by having been around the game for a long time.
Same here. It is absolutely a good thing to have the ex-player perspective, but it's not a bad idea to broaden the horizons.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:45 PM
  #55
gunners14henry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,047
vCash: 500
I was under the assumption that this was Rick Dudley's position. What's his role on the team?

gunners14henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:45 PM
  #56
Habsfan18
Registered User
 
Habsfan18's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,715
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunners14henry View Post
I was under the assumption that this was Rick Dudley's position. What's his role on the team?
Assistant GM, I believe.

__________________
Interested in checking out 50+ years worth of covers from "The Hockey News?" Check out my collection here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1382901
Habsfan18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:46 PM
  #57
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,560
vCash: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rise from the Ashes View Post
Communication is paramound with Bergevin and I am certain he consulted Timmins before hiring Mellanby and Lapointe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I'm not too concerned here. Apparently this is something that Bergevin discussed with Timmins and Timmins told him he had too much to do, plus Bergevin is said to hold Timmins in very high regard. (Arpon Basu said MB described TT as "outstanding").
I have no doubt he consulted Timmins, but doesn't mean TT necessarily wanted this.

In either case, in regards to Timmins suggesting he had too much. Source? I haven't seen any mention of that.

Also, even if Bergevin holds timmins in high regard, I don't see how this isn't overkill anyway. I mean, if I ever wanted to be promoted in a company and they tell me "look, we reduced your roles and not only that, we put 3-4 other guys between you and your goal one day...but I REALLY like your work". Obviously, if Timmins suggested he had too much work then I can't say much, but it's the first time I hear of this.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:46 PM
  #58
Rise from the Ashes
Price defies corsi
 
Rise from the Ashes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Pointe-Claire, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,098
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Rise from the Ashes
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunners14henry View Post
I was under the assumption that this was Rick Dudley's position. What's his role on the team?
Dudley is the eyes and ears of Bergevin. His chief scout and right hand man.

Rise from the Ashes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:46 PM
  #59
Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
 
Habs Icing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 6,253
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunners14henry View Post
I was under the assumption that this was Rick Dudley's position. What's his role on the team?
He procures liquor and blonde skanks for Bergevin's after hour parties.

Habs Icing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:47 PM
  #60
Myron Gaines*
Trop Giou
 
Myron Gaines*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Same here. It is absolutely a good thing to have the ex-player perspective, but it's not a bad idea to broaden the horizons.
Larry Carriere and Rick Dudley(despite being ex-players) have been involved in the game long enough to have that kind of perspective.

Myron Gaines* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:48 PM
  #61
Rise from the Ashes
Price defies corsi
 
Rise from the Ashes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Pointe-Claire, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,098
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Rise from the Ashes
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I have no doubt he consulted Timmins, but doesn't mean TT necessarily wanted this.

In either case, in regards to Timmins suggesting he had too much. Source? I haven't seen any mention of that.

Also, even if Bergevin holds timmins in high regard, I don't see how this isn't overkill anyway. I mean, if I ever wanted to be promoted in a company and they tell me "look, we reduced your roles and not only that, we put 3-4 other guys between you and your goal one day...but I REALLY like your work". Obviously, if Timmins suggested he had too much work then I can't say much, but it's the first time I hear of this.
Look at Detroits hockey operations and the success they have had and you will see why expansion and diversification is critically important.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=44103

Rise from the Ashes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:49 PM
  #62
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,560
vCash: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Same here. It is absolutely a good thing to have the ex-player perspective, but it's not a bad idea to broaden the horizons.
Maybe something up your alley but I would've preferred some kind of highly regarded stats and video guy as an advisor or something. Someone with a different perspective. I know a lot of times these guys are assistant coaches, but there's a difference between studying tactical video to understand other teams game plans and studying it for potential acquisitions in the free agent market. Essentially, somewhat of a moneyball guy but more balanced out with actual video evidence and not just numbers.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:49 PM
  #63
SaskRinkRat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
Larry Carriere and Rick Dudley(despite being ex-players) have been involved in the game long enough to have that kind of perspective.
Being involved in the game a long time does not bring a perspective of not being involved in the game for a long time.

I want fresh, new ideas. Not old things repackaged and recycled. Just flat out new ideas to mix with the experience that the current group brings.

How many university degrees are there amongst the management team?

SaskRinkRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:50 PM
  #64
Gabe84
Bring back Bonk!
 
Gabe84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,786
vCash: 500
Hate to sing the same song, but we're all very quick to judge his management system while we've seen 0 result so far. It's okay to make predictions, of course, but we're not talking about prospects we've seen in junior or Free Agents we've seen in the NHL. We're talking about management style, something that's really hard to gauge from the other side of a computer screen.

All I can say is that this seems like a more "modern" approach. Hockey is becoming more and more a science of numbers and details. It makes sense to make everybody's job more specific. Unless Timmins is some kind of power hungry guy, which I REALLY doubt, I'm sure he'll be happy with his new, more specific functions. Instead of having to deal with everything, he'll be able to trust an ex-NHL player to handle the prospects. Lapointe, we can only guess, should have at least a moderate amount of knowledge on how to develop a young player and will improve with time.

I say why not. A lot of people were complaining about Gauthier's micromanagement style of trying to do everything on his own. It's nice to have a guy who can trust other people to do their job while he focuses on his own job.

We'll find out (relatively) soon enough if this system is viable.

Welcome aboard, mister Lapointe!

Gabe84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:50 PM
  #65
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,255
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
Larry Carriere and Rick Dudley(despite being an ex-player) have been involved in the game long enough to have that kind of perspective.
That's the thing. All they have is ex-players. There's no other perspective.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:51 PM
  #66
Rise from the Ashes
Price defies corsi
 
Rise from the Ashes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Pointe-Claire, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,098
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Rise from the Ashes
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's the thing. All they have is ex-players. There's no other perspective.
These are the hirings we know about. I am sure more will take place soon.

Rise from the Ashes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:51 PM
  #67
Hemlor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 742
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Bergevin continues to surround himself with his buddies.

Wasn't player development supposed to be Mellanby's job?
Seems like Mellanby will oversee everything, and have more input on FA and trades, while TT will be oversee drafting, and ML oversee the development of the drafted players. I guess they don't want one person having multiple roles.

Hemlor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:53 PM
  #68
Gabe84
Bring back Bonk!
 
Gabe84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's the thing. All they have is ex-players. There's no other perspective.
At this point in his career, one could argue that Dudley is much more of a "suit and tie" type of guy than an ex-NHL player, if that makes sense.

Gabe84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:54 PM
  #69
Myron Gaines*
Trop Giou
 
Myron Gaines*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
Being involved in the game a long time does not bring a perspective of not being involved in the game for a long time.

I want fresh, new ideas. Not old things repackaged and recycled. Just flat out new ideas to mix with the experience that the current group brings.

How many university degrees are there amongst the management team?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's the thing. All they have is ex-players. There's no other perspective.
What I was trying to say is that they have enough experience to stay away from that perspective. As far as I know, Dudley is the kind hockey person who's always trying to learn new tendencies and ways of being creative in the new hockey. And I don't know much about Carriere, so I'll reserve my opinion.

But I get what you guys are saying and I do agree that it would be great to have guys who offer a new perspective in the way of managing this club. I wouldn't be surprised if the hirings are not done.

Myron Gaines* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 02:58 PM
  #70
Hemlor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 742
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's the thing. All they have is ex-players. There's no other perspective.
A big criticism of PG was that he never played the game, and that he was a micro-manager. This new philosophy is in stark contrast to that: A true mangement team made up of guys who have played. Whether that actually matters I don't know, but one thing it does do is give them instant credibility around the league (rightly or wrongly). The NHL is an exclusive club, and it doesn't seem they take too kindly to people that are unlike them, so this may actually help the organization when it comes to transactions including UFA's and trades.

I'm sure having people like Patrick Boivin doing the cap calculations is vital, but he doesn't have the same cache that the Dudley's, Lapointe's and Mellanby's do. everyone has their place, and will play a part in the re-building of the CH. Let's hope it works out, but I, for one, am excited about this, it's a fun ride.

Hemlor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 03:01 PM
  #71
HabsSlappy
Registered User
 
HabsSlappy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,129
vCash: 500
I was advocating something like this some time ago. Bring in lots of guys and make concensus decisions. No more one man (or two man) show making the big decisions.

By having this many eyes and ears in the management group it gives that many more checks and balances. You can rest assured that a Gomez deal would never happen if we have a management team instead of a couple of mad scientists.

This also gives that many more contacts and networking avenues to get things done. If we want to move a guy we now have Bergevin, Dudley, Mellanby and Lapointe all working the phones to find the best deal.

I really like the way this is shaping up, although I remain on the fence with the Therrien hire.

HabsSlappy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 03:01 PM
  #72
SaskRinkRat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlor View Post
A big criticism of PG was that he never played the game, and that he was a micro-manager. This new philosophy is in stark contrast to that: A true mangement team made up of guys who have played. Whether that actually matters I don't know, but one thing it does do is give them instant credibility around the league (rightly or wrongly). The NHL is an exclusive club, and it doesn't seem they take too kindly to people that are unlike them, so this may actually help the organization when it comes to transactions including UFA's and trades.

I'm sure having people like Patrick Boivin doing the cap calculations is vital, but he doesn't have the same cache that the Dudley's, Lapointe's and Mellanby's do. everyone has their place, and will play a part in the re-building of the CH. Let's hope it works out, but I, for one, am excited about this, it's a fun ride.
The bolded portion. I suspect this is at least partially true, and while adding credibility, it essentially guarantees that zero innovation can happen. If you already think you know everything you need to know, you will simply not adapt, and you'll instantly fall behind anyone open to adaptation.

SaskRinkRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 03:02 PM
  #73
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,560
vCash: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rise from the Ashes View Post
Look at Detroits hockey operations and the success they have had and you will see why expansion and diversification is critically important.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=44103
Contrary to popular belief the detroit red wings have a terrible drafting record. They identified some stars in Zetterberg, Datysuk, Lidstrom in last 20 years(or so) and people assume they have an excellent development team. Have you looked at their draft success?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

It's terrible.

Since 2000 they managed:


2000:
Kronwall(1st round, 29th overall)
Kopecky(2nd round, 38th overall)

9 OTHER picks in 2000. Combined NHL games:0

2001:

7 picks. 1 player with 4 games, another with 71 games.

2002:

Hudler (2nd round, 58th overall)
Vippula (3rd round, 95th overall)
Meech (7th round, 229th overall)
Ericsson (9th round, 291st overall)

Fleischmann selected in round 2, 63rd overall. Later traded with a 1st round pick(Mike Green) and a 4th round pick for Robert Lang. yes, Fleischmann, Green and a 4th for Lang.

The other 5 picks in that draft never played a single NHL game.


I can go on.

I mean in 2003, such a deep draft right?

They got Howard in the 2nd round, 64th overall and kyle quincey in 4th round, 132nd overall.

The other 6 picks in one of the deepest drafts? 0 NHL games played.

---------

So yes, I respect detroit and their class and winning attitude but their player development and drafting is significantly worse than us. It's likely one of the worst in the league.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 03:04 PM
  #74
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 18,339
vCash: 500
As much as I like Bergevin building a big team, and I have no problem with him going for friends (it's better if they get along after all), like others have said, I don't like how they are all cut from the same cloth. Nothing wrong with ex-players, mind you, but having no numbers guys is a little troubling; it seems like everyone being brought on board has a very old fashioned mindset.

Et le But is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2012, 03:06 PM
  #75
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,560
vCash: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
Being involved in the game a long time does not bring a perspective of not being involved in the game for a long time.

I want fresh, new ideas. Not old things repackaged and recycled. Just flat out new ideas to mix with the experience that the current group brings.

How many university degrees are there amongst the management team?
I know Carriere, Timmins and Boivin have university degrees(if not several between them).

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.