HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

The Overpayments Will Be Legendary

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-07-2012, 01:22 PM
  #26
NFITO
hockeyinsanity*****
 
NFITO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
How can you even use Leino, Upshall and Finger in the same sentance as Jones?

Jones would get 4+mil on the open market without a doubt.
Of course he would. he would be overpaid on the open market just like Leino and Upshall were... And even Finger would have been over $4mill under the increased salary cap.

Jones is a good player, but that's still an overpayment for him. Still no doubt that if he was on the open market another team would give him that (maybe more).

Jones is now in the same salary territory as Backes or Callahan.. Although those guys signed as RFAs, most of the years on their deals are under UFA years (both were just 1 year from UFA status when they signed)... He's making twice as much as Burrows or Higgins... Just a million less than Kesler, Richards or Carter.

In the end it looks like another Leino-type overpayment to me. Good player with a limited history of producing well. Not a terrible contract given the cost of UFA's in today's market, but overpayment IMO.

NFITO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 01:24 PM
  #27
Henkka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,692
vCash: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
I expect that if the cap goes down it will be very close to what it was this year.

The new CBA will probably have a smaller percentage going to the players (but there will be bigger revenues)
So, when I'm thinking, this should push the cap up, not down.

Henkka is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 01:30 PM
  #28
Goulet17
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,482
vCash: 500
I rather shocked so many people view the David Jones deal as an example of extreme overpayment. He was onemofmthe youngest forwards available with size and he is coming off back to back twenty goal campaigns.

I guess I shouldn't too surprised since a lot of posters were predicting their team to sign Jones in the range of $2.75 - $3.00 million this offseason, which amounted to a $500k raise max for a youngish twen goal scorer.

I think many people still have a degree of naïveté and frankly ignorance when it comes to the reality of UFA signings, or impending UFAs, as in this case.

Goulet17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 01:37 PM
  #29
Ivan13
Avs/Habs fan
 
Ivan13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 13,478
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
Of course he would. he would be overpaid on the open market just like Leino and Upshall were... And even Finger would have been over $4mill under the increased salary cap.

Jones is a good player, but that's still an overpayment for him. Still no doubt that if he was on the open market another team would give him that (maybe more).

Jones is now in the same salary territory as Backes or Callahan.. Although those guys signed as RFAs, most of the years on their deals are under UFA years (both were just 1 year from UFA status when they signed)... He's making twice as much as Burrows or Higgins... Just a million less than Kesler, Richards or Carter.

In the end it looks like another Leino-type overpayment to me. Good player with a limited history of producing well. Not a terrible contract given the cost of UFA's in today's market, but overpayment IMO.
Backes and Callahan are underpaid in terms of value compared to the other players of their caliber, kudos to Sather and Armstrong for signing them to such deals.

As for comapiring Jones to Leino and Upshall, both Leino and Upshall never scored 20 goals, Jones was a 20 goal score twice and once he hit 27. Compairing him to Finger is just laughable, he got that moronic deal from Burke because he supposedly shut down Gaborik during that Avs PO series against Minny, in reality Foote did all the job. Everyone knew that was a terrible deal at that time and Burke figured it out pretty quick himself.

Ivan13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 01:57 PM
  #30
TOGuy14
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
So, when I'm thinking, this should push the cap up, not down.
Don't think too hard it could be painful.

The players currently get what, 56, 57% of the revenue?

I think the next deal will be closer to 50/50 like the other leagues have recently signed.

If the new deal is say 51% for the players, but revenues go up, they would be taking a smaller portion of a bigger number, aka staying roughly where they are.

Was any part of that confusing really?

TOGuy14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 01:59 PM
  #31
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Current cap is 57% of revenue. The league is rumored to want to have it closer to 50% revenue. Lets say they settle on 53% then the cap might be a bit over 65m.

That's what I'd expect, a minimal to staying the same of the current cap. At the end of the CBA they'll go through another cycle and get to their 50% number if the league needs it to be physically stable.
If my math is right, 53% of 3.3B is ~58.3m.

Riptide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 02:00 PM
  #32
Marc the Habs Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Longueuil
Country: Canada
Posts: 50,073
vCash: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
If my math is right, 53% of 3.3B is ~58.3m.
That would be the mid-level calculation.

So cap would be 8 M more.

Marc the Habs Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 02:05 PM
  #33
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Compairing him to Finger is just laughable, he got that moronic deal from Burke because he supposedly shut down Gaborik during that Avs PO series against Minny, in reality Foote did all the job. Everyone knew that was a terrible deal at that time and Burke figured it out pretty quick himself.
Except Burke was the GM of Anahiem at the time.

Riptide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 02:05 PM
  #34
wynne
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Backes and Callahan are underpaid in terms of value compared to the other players of their caliber, kudos to Sather and Armstrong for signing them to such deals.

As for comapiring Jones to Leino and Upshall, both Leino and Upshall never scored 20 goals, Jones was a 20 goal score twice and once he hit 27. Compairing him to Finger is just laughable, he got that moronic deal from Burke because he supposedly shut down Gaborik during that Avs PO series against Minny, in reality Foote did all the job. Everyone knew that was a terrible deal at that time and Burke figured it out pretty quick himself.
It amazes me all the **** talking people do on here about Burke, even when it wasn't something he did, but people just assume.

Burke never gave Finger that contract

wynne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 02:05 PM
  #35
Ishad
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,114
vCash: 500
People will scream overpayment at almost every contract handed out, and then only recall the ones that look like a bust a year later.

Ishad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 02:06 PM
  #36
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
That would be the mid-level calculation.

So cap would be 8 M more.
Ah that makes sense. I was wondering why it seemed so low when I first used 50%.

Riptide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 02:25 PM
  #37
Halpysback
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 7,841
vCash: 500
4M for a 25-20 guy who could be a 35-30 guy in a good year who is effective on the 1st line, happens to be fast and not a liability.

What is the problem here?

Halpysback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 02:33 PM
  #38
Model T
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 401
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
4M for a 25-20 guy who could be a 35-30 guy in a good year who is effective on the 1st line, happens to be fast and not a liability.

What is the problem here?
First off he's already 27, so he's going to need hip replacements and arthritis medication soon, he's got no more than a year or two before he loses his ability to eat solid food, and before his contract expires he'll probably have Alzheimers. This is HF, don't forget.

But also 37 points last year and getting 4 million dollars AAV looks pretty absurd, doesn't it? 37 points is about replacement level.

(And yeah I know he scored 27 goals the season before, don't get your panties in a bunch. I'm telling you why people think this looks dumb, not judging whether it actually is.)

Model T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 02:58 PM
  #39
SirPaste
Registered User
 
SirPaste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: STL
Posts: 6,642
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by NothingLikeAnEJ View Post
Please show me some of the contracts of impending UFAs and how much they got after back to back 20 G seasons.

Especially the past couple seasons with the rise of the salary cap.
David Backes - 5 years 4.5 mil
Alex Steen - 4 years 3.3 mil

SirPaste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 03:48 PM
  #40
Seto
New Jersey 5000
 
Seto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 5,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirPaste View Post
David Backes - 5 years 4.5 mil
Alex Steen - 4 years 3.3 mil
One is the captain and the other one is one of the best two-way players in the league.

Seto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 03:50 PM
  #41
Analyzer
#WeAreBoston
 
Analyzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Renfrew, ON.
Country: Canada
Posts: 40,757
vCash: 500
Jones isn't overpaid. He's right in the middle. 3.5-4.5 3.5 being the good deal, the 4.5 being a bit much, but still falling in on the better side of a deal.

Paul Gaustad will be overpaid.

Analyzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 03:58 PM
  #42
Vorkosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NothingLikeAnEJ View Post
Please show me some of the contracts of impending UFAs and how much they got after back to back 20 G seasons.

Especially the past couple seasons with the rise of the salary cap.
Lol, 20 goal scorers are worth 4 million now?

Damn Alex Burrows probably feels like he got shafted, after scoring 28, 35, 26, 28 goals.. he's only getting 2 million a year.

Vorkosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 03:59 PM
  #43
The Bored Man
#94
 
The Bored Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,381
vCash: 537
Zach Parise will get 8 years, $75 million, a private jet, a bouncy castle, and the right to use team executives as human chess pieces a la Montgomery Burns.


The Bored Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 04:02 PM
  #44
SirPaste
Registered User
 
SirPaste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: STL
Posts: 6,642
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redarmynative View Post
One is the captain and the other one is one of the best two-way players in the league.
That's exactly my point, Jones is overpaid

SirPaste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 04:07 PM
  #45
ElDiablo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 21
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
Lol, 20 goal scorers are worth 4 million now?

Damn Alex Burrows probably feels like he got shafted, after scoring 28, 35, 26, 28 goals.. he's only getting 2 million a year.

Burrows will get his raise this year, or he's gone from Vancouver.

ElDiablo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 04:09 PM
  #46
HavlatMach9
Registered User
 
HavlatMach9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,476
vCash: 500
I don't know if it's so much overpayment as it is that contracts signed by superstars after the lockout and up to several years ago are so much of a bargain cap hit wise (like Kovalchuk, Hossa, etc).

HavlatMach9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 04:10 PM
  #47
Provost
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 276
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
They'll get the same as the NBA and NFL and I believe that was a 50/50 split. To many US teams are losing money and I can see a nasty fight if the player do not go along with it. What I hear the big market teams don't have the pull, like they did years ago and if the small market teams band together things will get ugly.
I agree that will be the league's argument, but the players can stand back and say... let them move to higher revenue locations then.

It isn't the player's fault that the league wants to play in places like Phoenix and Atlanta even though there are proven markets that will bring in more revenue.

We already proved the success in Winnipeg and including its TV rights went from the lowest revenue team (Atlanta) to one of the higher revenue teams in a single season, even with a subpar arena that limits the take at the gate.

The problem is every time you take a bottom revenue team and replace it with a more successful one, the league revenue (and hence the salary ceiling and salary floor) move up yet another notch. By doing that you put more of the weaker revenue teams in jeopardy who can't afford a $56 million dollar cap floor.

The only sustainable solution is some form of revenue sharing between the teams, whether a luxury tax or something else. The disparity between the economics of the teams make it untenable otherwise, and expecting the players to come in and fix it again the next contract after they caved to all your demands to fix it once is ludicrous.

They just have to play Bettman saying "all we need is cost certainty in the form of a split of revenues for all of our problems to go away" from the last negotiations.

Provost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 04:12 PM
  #48
Ivan13
Avs/Habs fan
 
Ivan13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 13,478
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirPaste View Post
That's exactly my point, Jones is overpaid
No Backes and Steen are underpaid in comparison to other players of their level, Armstrong did a good job.

Ivan13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 04:14 PM
  #49
Ivan13
Avs/Habs fan
 
Ivan13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 13,478
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
I don't know if it's so much overpayment as it is that contracts signed by superstars after the lockout and up to several years ago are so much of a bargain cap hit wise (like Kovalchuk, Hossa, etc).
Because they have those bogus years at the end, you can't compare Kovy's cap hit to Jones's.

Ivan13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-07-2012, 04:18 PM
  #50
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Provost View Post
By doing that you put more of the weaker revenue teams in jeopardy who can't afford a $56 million dollar cap floor.

The only sustainable solution is some form of revenue sharing between the teams, whether a luxury tax or something else. The disparity between the economics of the teams make it untenable otherwise, and expecting the players to come in and fix it again the next contract after they caved to all your demands to fix it once is ludicrous.

They just have to play Bettman saying "all we need is cost certainty in the form of a split of revenues for all of our problems to go away" from the last negotiations.
That's the big thing. But I can't believe that the NHL thought that the revenue would hit close to 3B and move the cap and revenue split (43/57) as high as it's gone. While I can see the players giving 50/50, I can't see them agreeing to a rollback of salaries (nor would I expect them to). And if they're agreeing to lower the split, then the league had better be increasing the monies for revenue sharing.

Riptide is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:37 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.