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Too many players = trade back into the first round?

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Old
06-03-2012, 03:28 AM
  #1
Adityase
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Too many players = trade back into the first round?

So the Wings are admittedly going to be aggressive getting a top 6 forward and a top D-man. That's great, but we also have a glut of bottom 6 guys including the gritty guys (Helm, Miller, Abby, Eaves), the young guys (Mursak, Emmerton) the declining veterans (Cleary, Bertuzzi) and then it would just be nice to have room for the young guys to get that cup of coffee (Tatar, Andersson, Jurco, Sheahan). I'm assuming Homer retires, Hudler walks and Nyquist is a regular.

My question is why don't we try to get back into the first round (or just start moving guys for picks if possible). I'm just hoping we don't cut 3 guys and get nothing right before the season. Who would you move?

I'd love to get rid of Bert (pretty sure he has some NMC) and possibly Cleary, but I'm hoping his surgery will mean he's healthy next year and can provide 3rd line scoring. I'm pretty ambivalent about Abby, but feel that Emmerton and possibly even Mursak could be expendable. Then again, Eaves and Miller are kind of redundant too.

I'd rather see 2 strong scoring lines, a Helm centered energy/forecheck/grind/defensive specialty 3rd line and a 4th line where young guys can develop and hopefully by the end of the year can provide offense in the playoffs.

I know I'm a little "all over the place" here, but I guess I'm just asking if it does seem that we'll have to move players anyway so we might as well try to get back into the first round. That way we can stop hating on Quincey too. Oh, that's not going to happen.

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06-03-2012, 04:22 AM
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here is the wrench in what you want (getting rid of roster players for picks):

you are assuming that we will actually be able to acquire a top 6 f and a top d man. I honestly think we will in some form or the other, BUT what if we don't?

If we get rid of miller, cleary, emmerton, and mursak (these are the ones i am most comfortable getting rid of), that clears 4 roster spots. leaving us with 9 forwards because we are getting rid of hudler i believe. we need to fill 5 nhl spots next season and we are going to get rid all of them for picks?

you could make the argument that tatar is ready, andersson, whoever. but we are getting rid of at the least two players that have been in the nhl with experience for many years for green-horns? I am just not comfortable with that.

No disrespect to tatar and andersson and whoever else that actually could make the leap, I am just not very comfortable with the idea of getting rid of all that experience for 0 experience, you know?

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06-03-2012, 06:36 AM
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Likewise, I'm not comfortable with the idea of moving guys for picks this year. I think that in a transition year we need as much experience as we can get. I feel we have a good chance to make the playoffs this season, but if we start dumping experience I'm not so sure.

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06-03-2012, 06:53 AM
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Mursak and Emmerton can both go, they bring nothing the next GR wave can't replace. Maybe trading them along with the 2nd or 3rd can get their 1st rounder back from Stevie.

Bertuzzi isn't getting traded after signing a new contract, and neither will Cleary.

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06-03-2012, 06:56 AM
  #5
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well if trading all those guys away just to get stevie's back, it would not be worth it in my opinion....that should easily be a top 10-15 pick in my opinion

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06-03-2012, 07:51 AM
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If this is in fact a "transition year" it is 100% impossible to do so without transitioning from a group of players to another group of players.

Our core is our core but fringe bottom 6 role players can and are and should be easily replaced at times and this year for several of them its that time

This is the perfect and perhaps best chance in a decade that we have had to bring in some youth with some size and speed and skill while still under the leadership of our core guys and thus minimal negative impact.

if miller, eaves, emmerton and mursak are not part of our future core 7 or 8 forwards then ship them out and bring in guys who will be either via free agency or from within our own system and get them the experience they need while still being sheltered by the top guns

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06-03-2012, 09:07 AM
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The conundrum is we'd have to give up one of our better players - like say Val Fippula - in order to get a good first round pick. And that's not happening. I highly doubt anyone other than Ken Holland is going to give up a first for Kyle Quincey. Jan Mursak, Cory Emmerton, Drew Miller, Justin Abdelkader and Patrick Eaves are not going to bring back a 1st in the top half of the draft.

I wasn't thrilled about re-signing Bert so quickly but what's done is done. My goal would be to assemble the best team possible given our needs. So for instance I'd prefer Riley Sheahan - should he make the team - or Joakim Andersson to be our 4th line center over Cory Emmerton. So in my opinion that would make Emmerton expendable. In reality what could you get for him, a 4th round pick? That's fine, but it's one example of how you would not get what you are seeking with the plan you have in place.

I could take or leave Justin Abdelkader but at the same time if you want to have a tough 4th line he could certainly factor in nicely on a line comprised of: Abdelkader-Sheahan/Andersson-Miller. The 3rd line is going to be a hot mess, particularly if you slot Bert onto that line and have Helm center the line.

With all that being said I agree with the general concept. Figure out who you want to fill each roster spot and try to get something for the odd men out. One of the benefits of our system is we should have a good handle on every guy's strengths and weaknesses, moreso than teams that are constantly wheeling and dealing and making trades - like say the Sharks and Flyers. So if Babs says "hell yeah, I want a 4th line of Sheahan-Anderson-Miller" then Holland works with him and trades Abby's rights and trades Emmerton. Get whatever you can get in return while giving Babs what he needs.

Holland has got to get his overwhelming desire to pack rat under control. We know who most of these players are; find a spot for the guys who fit and clear the way for the younger guys so we can get a good idea of what they're all aboot.

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06-03-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
The conundrum is we'd have to give up one of our better players - like say Val Fippula - in order to get a good first round pick. And that's not happening. I highly doubt anyone other than Ken Holland is going to give up a first for Kyle Quincey. Jan Mursak, Cory Emmerton, Drew Miller, Justin Abdelkader and Patrick Eaves are not going to bring back a 1st in the top half of the draft.

I wasn't thrilled about re-signing Bert so quickly but what's done is done. My goal would be to assemble the best team possible given our needs. So for instance I'd prefer Riley Sheahan - should he make the team - or Joakim Andersson to be our 4th line center over Cory Emmerton. So in my opinion that would make Emmerton expendable. In reality what could you get for him, a 4th round pick? That's fine, but it's one example of how you would not get what you are seeking with the plan you have in place.

I could take or leave Justin Abdelkader but at the same time if you want to have a tough 4th line he could certainly factor in nicely on a line comprised of: Abdelkader-Sheahan/Andersson-Miller. The 3rd line is going to be a hot mess, particularly if you slot Bert onto that line and have Helm center the line.

With all that being said I agree with the general concept. Figure out who you want to fill each roster spot and try to get something for the odd men out. One of the benefits of our system is we should have a good handle on every guy's strengths and weaknesses, moreso than teams that are constantly wheeling and dealing and making trades - like say the Sharks and Flyers. So if Babs says "hell yeah, I want a 4th line of Sheahan-Anderson-Miller" then Holland works with him and trades Abby's rights and trades Emmerton. Get whatever you can get in return while giving Babs what he needs.

Holland has got to get his overwhelming desire to pack rat under control. We know who most of these players are; find a spot for the guys who fit and clear the way for the younger guys so we can get a good idea of what they're all aboot.
I think as far as getting a 1st rounder, I'm pretty sure the OP was thinking we'd package the 2nd rounder with someone like Abdelkader for a pick in the 1st, probably in the back half. So it would be Abdelkader for 30-40 spots in the draft.

Regardless, the Wings don't view the draft as a solution to the current roster problems. Holland said it himself - anybody they draft, even if it's in the first round, they're hoping to have on the roster in 5 years. Not before. So that's not going to help much and I doubt they'll trade away what they consider to be assets for picks just to make room for other guys. Even if we think the guys that are blocked would be much better than many of the current guys.

As for Bert or Cleary getting moved, they're not going anywhere. They just re-signed Bert and I'm not sure you can even move him for X months after an extension - I thought there was a clause about that in the CBA but I can't remember. And Babcock lurrrrves Cleary and would quit if they ever traded him.

No, I think we're looking at 2-3 years very much like this last one and then hopefully the next wave is ready to contend. Unless they somehow manage to sign everybody this July and remake the roster, but I'm skeptical about that...

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Old
06-03-2012, 10:03 AM
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  1. Datsyuk
  2. Franzen
  3. Bertuzzi
  4. Zetterberg
  5. Flip
  6. Helm
  7. Miller
  8. Cleary
  9. Abdelkader
  10. Nyquist
  11. Mursak
  12. Eaves
  13. Emmerton
  1. Kronwall
  2. Ericsson
  3. Quincey
  4. White
  5. Smith
  6. Kindl

The real question is, how many UFAs do we signed.
If I had my druthers, we'd sign:
1. Top Six Forward for Datsyuk
2. Top Six forward to replace Hudler
3. Top Bottom six center
4. Top pairing defenseman
5. Defensive defenseman with toughness

To me, that's the level of transformation this team needs to rise.
Does Holland understand that?

If you sign three UFA forwards, you're looking at losing two forwards on the list. Emmerton (since you've signed a bottom six forward) and a winger (Eaves, IMO, do to injury history).

If you sign two UFA D, you have to drop one defenseman. I'd say it's quincey or White or Kindl

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06-03-2012, 10:46 AM
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Our depth players hold close to no value at all. It'd be easier to just send them through waivers if we want to clear some space.

With Helm re-signed and Nyquist on the roster we have 12 forwards. Sign a top6 forward and we have 13. Abdelkader would make it 14.

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Old
06-03-2012, 11:40 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
  1. Datsyuk
  2. Franzen
  3. Bertuzzi
  4. Zetterberg
  5. Flip
  6. Helm
  7. Miller
  8. Cleary
  9. Abdelkader
  10. Nyquist
  11. Mursak
  12. Eaves
  13. Emmerton
  1. Kronwall
  2. Ericsson
  3. Quincey
  4. White
  5. Smith
  6. Kindl

The real question is, how many UFAs do we signed.
If I had my druthers, we'd sign:
1. Top Six Forward for Datsyuk
2. Top Six forward to replace Hudler
3. Top Bottom six center
4. Top pairing defenseman
5. Defensive defenseman with toughness

To me, that's the level of transformation this team needs to rise.
Does Holland understand that?

If you sign three UFA forwards, you're looking at losing two forwards on the list. Emmerton (since you've signed a bottom six forward) and a winger (Eaves, IMO, do to injury history).

If you sign two UFA D, you have to drop one defenseman. I'd say it's quincey or White or Kindl
1. trade stuarts rights plus emmerton to anaheim for the rights to justin schultz and sign for 3 years @ 1.5 million a season
2. trade quincey(plus miller if they want him) to tampa for the 40th and 50th overall pick
3. trade franzen, helm and kindl to washington for laich, green and a 3rd rd pick
3. sign suter and parise to ten year 65 million dollar deals with a 5 million dollar signing bonus(paid out over two years) each
3. sign prust for 950k and biron for 850k
4. bring in smith, nyquist and tatar
5. waive miller
6. leaves us with just under 2 million in cap space to adjust these numbers

of course now this is just fantasy but in two weeks we have just completely reshaped our team with signicantly more youth, skill, size, speed and depth both up front and on the backend while also adding a few extra picks for good measure

My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.500m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Brooks Laich ($4.500m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.840m)
Justin Abdelkader ($0.900m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Brandon Prust ($0.950m)
Jan Mursak ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($6.500m) / Mike Green ($5.500m)
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Justin Schultz ($1.500m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Martin Biron ($0.850m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $67,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,323,333; BONUSES: $247,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $1,976,667

now please feel free to make fun of me for being such a weiner


Last edited by Zetterberg4Captain: 06-03-2012 at 02:37 PM.
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Old
06-03-2012, 12:36 PM
  #12
Redwings1927
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i just don't like mike green for some reason. and i don't know if the brass would like it if we brought in two D then put them both on the top D line...

the only reason I say that is because of the history of wings wanting to put our own players up on a pedestile first then think about the others.

if the D really looked like that, it would probably start out as:

Suter - White
Green - Kronwall
Smith - Ericsson

what I would actually like out of all that is:

Smith - Suter
Green - Kronwall
Ericsson - Schultz

white would have been traded instead of helm in the laich deal
-I just feel that Smith is that good. I honestly think he will have a fantastic career on the wings roster and get 4 or 5 norris trophies. I already got his signature on his jersey and am waiting until that value will just keep rising.

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06-03-2012, 12:46 PM
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I have hated the Wings bottom six for three years now and i am really hoping some trades get rid of those players. I wish the Wings could get something back for Abdelkader, but sadly he is a RFA. The third and fourth lines are offensively inept in the playoffs and do decent in the regular season. We have two scoring lines and two really, really mediocre 4th lines. Helm is the only player that i actually want to stay. The rest can go and if we can trade them for picks, i would be OK with that because i feel that most of the Wings bottom six can easily be replaced.

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06-03-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwings1927 View Post
i just don't like mike green for some reason. and i don't know if the brass would like it if we brought in two D then put them both on the top D line...

the only reason I say that is because of the history of wings wanting to put our own players up on a pedestile first then think about the others.

if the D really looked like that, it would probably start out as:

Suter - White
Green - Kronwall
Smith - Ericsson

what I would actually like out of all that is:

Smith - Suter
Green - Kronwall
Ericsson - Schultz

white would have been traded instead of helm in the laich deal
-I just feel that Smith is that good. I honestly think he will have a fantastic career on the wings roster and get 4 or 5 norris trophies. I already got his signature on his jersey and am waiting until that value will just keep rising.
Do you realize how few people have 4 or 5 norris trophies? That is really high expectations for a kid who is just entering the NHL right now...

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Old
06-03-2012, 01:06 PM
  #15
Zetterberg4Captain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwings1927 View Post
i just don't like mike green for some reason. and i don't know if the brass would like it if we brought in two D then put them both on the top D line...

the only reason I say that is because of the history of wings wanting to put our own players up on a pedestile first then think about the others.

if the D really looked like that, it would probably start out as:

Suter - White
Green - Kronwall
Smith - Ericsson

what I would actually like out of all that is:

Smith - Suter
Green - Kronwall
Ericsson - Schultz

white would have been traded instead of helm in the laich deal
-I just feel that Smith is that good. I honestly think he will have a fantastic career on the wings roster and get 4 or 5 norris trophies. I already got his signature on his jersey and am waiting until that value will just keep rising.
yah i here you but to me, green despite his injury history to which i would hope he is over is actually one of the few dmen in the entire league who can be a true #1 dman that being, his presence on the ice is capable of creating offence and scoring chances for others simply by being there

a top 5 dmen of suter, green, kronwall, smith and schultz would be incredible going forward


Last edited by Zetterberg4Captain: 06-03-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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Old
06-03-2012, 01:33 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
1. trade stuarts rights plus emmerton to anaheim for the rights to nick schultz and sign for 3 years @ 1.5 million a season
2. trade quincey(plus miller if they want him) to tampa for the 40th and 50th overall pick
3. trade franzen, helm and kindl to washington for laich, green and a 3rd rd pick
3. sign suter and parise to ten year 65 million dollar deals with a 5 million dollar signing bonus(paid out over two years) each
3. sign prust for 950k and biron for 850k
4. bring in smith, nyquist and tatar
5. waive miller
6. leaves us with just under 2 million in cap space to adjust these numbers

of course now this is just fantasy but in two weeks we have just completely reshaped our team with signicantly more youth, skill, size, speed and depth both up front and on the backend while also adding a few extra picks for good measure

My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.500m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Brooks Laich ($4.500m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.840m)
Justin Abdelkader ($0.900m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Brandon Prust ($0.950m)
Jan Mursak ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($6.500m) / Mike Green ($5.500m)
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Nick Schultz ($1.500m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Martin Biron ($0.850m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $67,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,323,333; BONUSES: $247,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $1,976,667

now please feel free to make fun of me for being such a weiner
I like this but wouldn't want to get rid of Helm.

Btw, it's Justin Schultz. Nick Schultz plays for the Oilers.

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Old
06-03-2012, 02:36 PM
  #17
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I like this but wouldn't want to get rid of Helm.

Btw, it's Justin Schultz. Nick Schultz plays for the Oilers.
yep sorry my goof..

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06-03-2012, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
1. trade stuarts rights plus emmerton to anaheim for the rights to justin schultz and sign for 3 years @ 1.5 million a season
3. trade franzen, helm and kindl to washington for laich, green and a 3rd rd pick
Yeeah. This is a little bit of wishful thinking.

For one thing, Schultz is probably smart enough to know that if he waits another month, he can have the exact same offers he would have this month... from virtually every single team in the league. So he doesn't really want to negotiate right now, and his rights are worth basically nothing because teams are supposedly tampering left and right anyway. So we'd be giving up those assets for nothing. We'd be better off just having Smith go talk to him and make the offer and eat the penalty if we get caught. It'd probably be cheaper.

For the other, I think Mike Green has a lot more value than that still. He's been hurt, but he's a 30 goal defenseman when he's healthy. He can still do that. We all want to trade Franzen away because he has zero intensity and is streaky as hell, but other teams know that too. I seriously doubt Washington would do this one. Laich is a very good player also as a pretty consistent 50 point guy. Helm is good, but has yet to hit the level where he's a difference maker on even a semi-regular basis, and Kindl hasn't really shown he can hold down a #6 spot yet. This is not a lot of value going to Washington.

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06-03-2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
Yeeah. This is a little bit of wishful thinking.

For one thing, Schultz is probably smart enough to know that if he waits another month, he can have the exact same offers he would have this month... from virtually every single team in the league. So he doesn't really want to negotiate right now, and his rights are worth basically nothing because teams are supposedly tampering left and right anyway. So we'd be giving up those assets for nothing. We'd be better off just having Smith go talk to him and make the offer and eat the penalty if we get caught. It'd probably be cheaper.

For the other, I think Mike Green has a lot more value than that still. He's been hurt, but he's a 30 goal defenseman when he's healthy. He can still do that. We all want to trade Franzen away because he has zero intensity and is streaky as hell, but other teams know that too. I seriously doubt Washington would do this one. Laich is a very good player also as a pretty consistent 50 point guy. Helm is good, but has yet to hit the level where he's a difference maker on even a semi-regular basis, and Kindl hasn't really shown he can hold down a #6 spot yet. This is not a lot of value going to Washington.
i simply took the caps trade sent in by some cap fan posters, i agree with most if not all of what you said though the true gain for the washington would be cap space if they felt that Carlson and Alzner were going to be their big time money dmen which in all likelyhood they're

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06-03-2012, 03:36 PM
  #20
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3. sign suter and parise to ten year 65 million dollar deals with a 5 million dollar signing bonus(paid out over two years) each
Yep...not like you haven't told us a bunch of times to think it's a pipe dream that we'll get one, let alone both, of them.

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06-03-2012, 03:40 PM
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Yep...not like you haven't told us a bunch of times to think it's a pipe dream that we'll get one, let alone both, of them.
agreed, thats why i put trading for green and schultz as a higher priority therby reducing the repercusion of not getting suter as a free agent on July 1st and simply icing on the cake if we do

my prefernce is to always trade first for what you need then go to free agency to supplement/enhance what you have

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06-03-2012, 03:44 PM
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I also think there's a log-jam of mediocre players in our bottom 6, but I haven't given up on Cleary yet, Helm & Bert aren't going anywhere, Abby probably isn't going anywhere, Miller is a rock solid 4th liner...but the rest are expendable.

Mursak, Eaves and Emmerton are all players that I don't really care if they stay or go.

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06-03-2012, 03:47 PM
  #23
Redwings1927
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Originally Posted by Kyleftlx View Post
Do you realize how few people have 4 or 5 norris trophies? That is really high expectations for a kid who is just entering the NHL right now...
That is my point. I do realize it and I am well aware of my expectations on him. If he is paired with someone who can hold his ground like he can (and stop taking as much chances like stepping up in the middle of the ice on one-on-ones, this guy will be amazing.

Just remember this conversation in 10 years...I know that is a long time, but I believe he will get 2 in the next 10 if played top minutes with powerplay time. And his other two will be right after the 10 years.

It doesn't do much for any of you to believe it, but I guarantee it.



Edit: If you want me to give ideas on why I say this then here. I was sitting at home waiting for the Wings game to start. I get on here and I seen that Smith was playing. So I was ready to watch our future on the ice and see what he could do. I seen this dude take no **** from anyone (got into a fight, but did not instigate) laid out some very smart hits and poke checks. He does a lot of intelligent things no the ice that I am sure some here did not see (Lidstrom like moves: knocking puck out of air when someone tries to dump in, etc.) He did a point shot that was wobbling, yet it was hit powerful enough and straight enough to get to the goalie. In his own zone he was making smart decisions, dropping the puck behind him and eating a check.

Again, I know it is a very small sample size. I just see it and I do expect many great things to come. If you want me to go farther with other prospects: Nyquist is the next DRW Datsyuk if he can settle down and keep some composure (he rushed a lot of his decision making)


Last edited by Redwings1927: 06-03-2012 at 03:59 PM.
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06-03-2012, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Redwings1927 View Post
That is my point. I do realize it and I am well aware of my expectations on him. If he is paired with someone who can hold his ground like he can (and stop taking as much chances like stepping up in the middle of the ice on one-on-ones, this guy will be amazing.

Just remember this conversation in 10 years...I know that is a long time, but I believe he will get 2 in the next 10 if played top minutes with powerplay time. And his other two will be right after the 10 years.

It doesn't do much for any of you to believe it, but I guarantee it.
You sir, are BOLD.

Of course I hope you're right, but I have my doubts.

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06-03-2012, 04:57 PM
  #25
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I expect that both Emmerton and Mursak are on the outs, but you're not going to get much for them (if anything). Mursak probably moreso; Babcock had absolutely no faith in him whatsoever down the stretch.

...and as far as the topic at hand; if the Wings actually do trade back into the 1st round, I will eat all of my hats (and I have a lot of hats). This organization has always had a reputation for trading down, not up. And really, who would they even move to get into that position, anyway? Emmerton, Mursak, Abdelkader... these guys don't exactly scream mega value. Cleary and Bertuzzi aren't going anywhere. Maybe White or Kindl would be enough, but given the sudden holes on defense, I don't expect those guys to be moved for picks. They'll want actual names, and proven ones at that.

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