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06-09-2012, 04:22 PM
  #1
Chairman Maouth
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Luongo Trade Talk - Part VI

Conitinue....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCF23 View Post
Luongo carried us through the playoffs last year too. Look at the goals/game of each Cup finalist since the lockout in their playoff run:

LA: 2.78
NJ: 2.54

Boston: 3.24
Vancouver: 2.32

Chicago: 3.54
Philly: 3.30

Detroit: 3.30
Pittsburgh: 3.29

Detroit: 3.27
Pittsburgh: 3.05

Ottawa: 2.95
Anaheim: 2.76

Carolina: 2.92
Edmonton: 2.92

and even pre-lockout at the height of the dead puck era...

Tampa Bay: 2.56
Calgary: 2.31

...So of the 14 Stanley Cup Finalists since the lockout our team was dead last in terms of goal support and on par with pre lockout dead puck era numbers.

It's such a misrepresentation to say Luongo can't carry a team.
And even as low as that number is, it still dropped by more than 50% in the SCF.

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06-09-2012, 04:27 PM
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To me it all comes down to two things: age and Luongo's possible desire to play closer to his family.

Most of the stuff that people use to pump up Schneider (or denigrate Luongo) is speculation or outright BS. Schneider's not going to be cheaper than Luongo in the long term if he continues his play, the team doesn't magically play better in front of him, there's no huge dichotomy between their personalities (both seem to be exceedingly hard working professionals who are still light hearted), and Schneider isn't going to magically overcome the teams' other problems. But the fact is that he's 7 years younger than Luongo and if you think you can get 7 extra years of elite goaltending than you'd otherwise get, it's worth taking a hit in the value department in the short term to achieve that.

And that's where the 2nd point comes in. If Luongo does wish to move on and asked for a trade closer to the east coast then the team should do whatever it takes to make that happen even if it's not the best move asset wise (within reason of course). Even if the return for him is somewhat underwhelming, if he wants to move on there's no point in trying to force things. It wouldn't serve the team or Luongo personally.

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06-09-2012, 04:46 PM
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06-09-2012, 04:50 PM
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Luongo must be traded or told to sit home next season. I'd pay him not to play for the Canucks if that's what it takes.

The team must have it's security blanket taken away if this core is ever going to go anywhere again. It's a shame Gillis was allowed to keep his, though.

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06-09-2012, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Better positional goalie...

Lunqdvist, mike smith this year anyway (might be my number 1 in this regard this year), halak. Cory schneider, and im sure that one will fire some roberto fans on here up. I rarely see cory out of position, the only weakness i see is when he cheats against the post sometimes.

I personally dont think he is the best position-ally, to many odd goals get in on roberto especially when hes having off nights. My feeling is robertos strength is being able to read plays and react when facing a high volume of shots, basically robertos focus is his strongest aspect imo when he is on, he gets alot of flack for being mentally weak on off nights, but when hes focused, he reads and reacts to large volume of shots quickly, but when hes having off nights, to many goals get through he should have had that are savable especially for him. He is good positionally, i could name a ton of worse positional goalies in the league but i definitely dont think or would claim hes the best in the league either.
Ugh. I HATE how people would always bring up the goalies from a defensive team that blocks out everything for the netminder and say that that guy is better positionally than Roberto. It really blows my mind

I might be able to give you Lundqvist, that guy has played out of his mind the last few years. But we have yet to seen how he would play positionally if he was on a run and gun team like Roberto has been dealing with in Vancouver. Keep in mind that this year during the playoffs, when the Rangers tried to match the Devils in run and gun in the last few games of the series, they ended up losing all 3 games and Lundqvist looked like a sieve. Lundqvist is a better overall goalie than roberto no question, but he hasn't separated himself as a better goalie in terms of postioning. IMO

Mike Smith - I agree he was pretty solid this year, but I will put him in Luongo's tier for positioning after a couple more years of this. Can't ignore how bad he was in Tampa, where they were playing run and gun.

Halak - have you forgotten what he was like before Hitchcock??

Schneider - you make it sound like cheating off the post is not a big issue. for once i agree with y2k here, once schneider gets scouted more he will start getting beat a lot shortside (more so than roberto), and then we will all complain about schneider letting in goals short side. In fact, i am surprised it hasnt started already, jarett stoll clearly knew what he was doing when he scored the OT goal in game 5.

you still haven't named me a goalie in the league who is clearly better positionally than roberto...

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06-09-2012, 05:00 PM
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It'll be funny if Luongo goes to the Leafs because Carlyle is likely going to have them play the trap and do what teams are doing again for goaltenders. Luongo will have a great season and people will act like he improved as a goalie when he'll likely just be the same goalie he's been all along.

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06-09-2012, 05:32 PM
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Garrioch is saying that Nash is wanting out of Columbus. Luongo is said to be wanting out of Vancouver. What would Vancouver have to add, along with Luongo to get Nash? If it is manageable, like a draft pick or a non roster player that would be great. Would Luongo go to Columbus?

What about Edmonton? They have a young core group and are probably losing leadership in Smyth. They have the first overall pick in this years entry draft. Would they swap it for Luongo? Would he go there?

Toronto has significant obstacles to overcome, but a desperate (he has to be!) GM. They might mount a massive offer. Would Luongo want to go there? They are essentially rebuilding.

Some of the most attractive trading partners might be nixed by Luongo, while Schnieder can not decline.

What about Schnieder? Is he re-signed? Isn't that cause for concern? Doesn't he have to be under contract by July 1? Is he in danger of being ridiculously overpaid and having unrealistic expectations showered upon him? It is not unrealistic to think he will be a capable starter.

The more difficult trade is Luongo. As Schnieder remains unsigned, I have to think he has thought of some of these scenarios, too. It is not unheard of for NHL teams to annoint a starting goalie and award him a big contract anticipating it. I think the grip Gillis has on Schnieder grows more tenuous with each passing day.

Imagine if Gillis lets Schnieder go for compensation! Even if Schnieder is given a contract in excess of five million and the return is the maximum number of picks, the Canucks lose unless Schnieder goes to a lottery pick team. This scenario seems more likely than moving along an aging starter who has apparently lost his position, but still is contractually owed a premium salary.

If some team has thier heart set on Luongo they better move quickly before events overtake tham and he is off the market. Gillis had bettyer act quickly, too, or his options might narrow.

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06-09-2012, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank4Hart View Post
Ugh. I HATE how people would always bring up the goalies from a defensive team that blocks out everything for the netminder and say that that guy is better positionally than Roberto. It really blows my mind

I might be able to give you Lundqvist, that guy has played out of his mind the last few years. But we have yet to seen how he would play positionally if he was on a run and gun team like Roberto has been dealing with in Vancouver. Keep in mind that this year during the playoffs, when the Rangers tried to match the Devils in run and gun in the last few games of the series, they ended up losing all 3 games and Lundqvist looked like a sieve. Lundqvist is a better overall goalie than roberto no question, but he hasn't separated himself as a better goalie in terms of postioning. IMO

Mike Smith - I agree he was pretty solid this year, but I will put him in Luongo's tier for positioning after a couple more years of this. Can't ignore how bad he was in Tampa, where they were playing run and gun.

Halak - have you forgotten what he was like before Hitchcock??

Schneider - you make it sound like cheating off the post is not a big issue. for once i agree with y2k here, once schneider gets scouted more he will start getting beat a lot shortside (more so than roberto), and then we will all complain about schneider letting in goals short side. In fact, i am surprised it hasnt started already, jarett stoll clearly knew what he was doing when he scored the OT goal in game 5.

you still haven't named me a goalie in the league who is clearly better positionally than roberto...
Yes i have, obviously you disagree and now claim its cause they play for great defensive teams...ok. We were a very strong defensive team last year ourselves, i dont think he is the best positional goalie. To many times roberto bites on dekes, and easily gets out of position.

We could go on and on, before halak had hitchcock i remember his cup run in montreal where he was left out to dry and always had excellent positioning on opposing players. Did lunqdvist have amazing defensive team years prior? Or are we going to use the d as an excuse then as well?

Schneider does cheat off his post, but thats it....no goalie is perfect, but he does not bite on moves nearly as quickly as lou. Imo lou is his own worst enemy in net sometimes. He cheats off his post to, remember the richards goal? I also feel roberto as mentioned likes to go down way to early at times, anticipating a shot when its not coming. And do you remember roberto falling and laying in his crease with malhotra trying to dive over him, meanwhile brown went to the other side for a wrap around and scored in that l.a. series, roberto was laying there way out of position? I would not criticize schneider in the l.a series his numbers were superior to robertos and were the best of any goalie first round, including quick. That stoll goal i dont think anyone was saving. Sutter even said after hes been waiting 3 months for stoll to make that shot and it was a perfect shot. No idea how you criticize schneider for that.

Your obviously a big fan and I like lou, but I dont think hes the best positional goalie in the league. I would love to take this to the main boards and be proven wrong for non biased opinion.

We could go on and on here.


Last edited by Orca Smash: 06-09-2012 at 06:23 PM.
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06-09-2012, 06:09 PM
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I just checked capgeek and we have the room to keep both Luongo and Schneider. Lets keep them both until the right deal comes for either one.

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06-09-2012, 06:12 PM
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I think for the most part this is what everyone has been saying for the past week.

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06-09-2012, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackeybuff View Post
I just checked capgeek and we have the room to keep both Luongo and Schneider. Lets keep them both until the right deal comes for either one.
I think Schneider's agent said that he wont be making a deal until Luongo is gone (or something like that).

And yeah, we have plenty of cap space. We can even go 10% more than the salary cap during the off-season (so we have 77 mil total until the start of the season).

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06-09-2012, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orca Smash View Post
Did lunqdvist have amazing defensive team years prior? Or are we going to use the d as an excuse then as well?
How far have the Rangers gone in the post-season with Lindqvist as the goalie? Because not having a Cup victory is the one thing people always throw in Luongo's face.

How far has Rinne gone in the post-season with the pairing of Weber & Suter in front of him?

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06-09-2012, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
How far have the Rangers gone in the post-season with Lindqvist as the goalie? Because not having a Cup victory is the one thing people always throw in Luongo's face.

How far has Rinne gone in the post-season with the pairing of Weber & Suter in front of him?
We are not discussing that at all. We are discussing his positioning and hank4hart saying he looks good positionally because of a strong defensive system.. Which i disagreed with. Lunqdvist had good positioning years prior when the rangers were not as good defensively.

The entire arguement is roberto being the best positional goalie in the league.

I actually cited previously robertos focus in big games are some of his strongest qualities that go unnoticed because he has had some bad ones. Nobody remembers how good his focus is in big games when hes on. Like a majority of games last year.

I personally feel roberto and his fans overrate him on here, and overcompensate for him because outside of here fans are also way to hard on him and dont give him enough credit. I feel its somewhere in between, I wont be a popular opinion on here where many of his followers conglomerate. And I still dont believe hes the best positional goalie in the league.

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06-09-2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Orca Smash View Post
I personally feel roberto and his fans overrate him on here, and overcompensate for him because outside of here fans are also way to hard on him and dont give him enough credit. I feel its somewhere in between
Although I agree it's somewhere inbetween; I'd actually argue his harsher critics are actually "Canuckfans".

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06-09-2012, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
I think Schneider's agent said that he wont be making a deal until Luongo is gone (or something like that).

And yeah, we have plenty of cap space. We can even go 10% more than the salary cap during the off-season (so we have 77 mil total until the start of the season).
Didnt know that. Do we have a source for this? That is a HUGE statement to make.

If I am Gillis and I hear an ultimatum like that, Schneider is traded the next day.

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06-09-2012, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Although I agree it's somewhere inbetween; I'd actually argue his harsher critics are actually so-called "Canuckfans".
They can still be fans and not be roberto fans. My family is divided. My dad and cousin (who is the biggest canucks fan i know) is extremely critical of him and does not like him on the team.

His brother and father are two of his his biggest fans.

It makes for interesting christmas dinners (arguments) that get heated.

I also know big canucks fans who love roberto and dont like schneider... i spoke to two of them the other week. It goes both ways. I remember on the cdc a thread saying I cant wait until schneider is traded and receiving a huge number of plus's after roberto had a bad game and schneider came in on backup. One of the reasons i came here. Its turned into childish talk with to many emotions involved.

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06-09-2012, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
I think Schneider's agent said that he wont be making a deal until Luongo is gone (or something like that).

And yeah, we have plenty of cap space. We can even go 10% more than the salary cap during the off-season (so we have 77 mil total until the start of the season).
Well, that's not like his character at all . I won't believe it unless I hear it from Schneider himself, but in an Alex Burrows voice. Actually, Schneider was talking a little bigger than I thought he should towards the end of the season, so....

In his defence though, he'd be a fool to sign with the Canucks while Luongo is still with the team. What scares me is although people think Schneider will be cheaper, once Luongo is gone, Scheider would have Gillis over a barrel.

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06-09-2012, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
How far have the Rangers gone in the post-season with Lindqvist as the goalie? Because not having a Cup victory is the one thing people always throw in Luongo's face.

How far has Rinne gone in the post-season with the pairing of Weber & Suter in front of him?
Lundqvist is a likeable guy and therefore is not to blame for anything. I've never heard Rinne speak, but he certainly isn't disliked. Roberto on the other is easy to dislike and therefore is to blame when we don't score a goal.

That said, his time is done here.

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06-09-2012, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
I think Schneider's agent said that he wont be making a deal until Luongo is gone (or something like that).

And yeah, we have plenty of cap space. We can even go 10% more than the salary cap during the off-season (so we have 77 mil total until the start of the season).
I thought it was the exact opposite, that his agent said there was a good chance both would be returning.

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06-09-2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JuniorNelson View Post
Garrioch is saying that Nash is wanting out of Columbus. Luongo is said to be wanting out of Vancouver. What would Vancouver have to add, along with Luongo to get Nash? If it is manageable, like a draft pick or a non roster player that would be great. Would Luongo go to Columbus?

What about Edmonton? They have a young core group and are probably losing leadership in Smyth. They have the first overall pick in this years entry draft. Would they swap it for Luongo? Would he go there?

Toronto has significant obstacles to overcome, but a desperate (he has to be!) GM. They might mount a massive offer. Would Luongo want to go there? They are essentially rebuilding.

Some of the most attractive trading partners might be nixed by Luongo, while Schnieder can not decline.

What about Schnieder? Is he re-signed? Isn't that cause for concern? Doesn't he have to be under contract by July 1? Is he in danger of being ridiculously overpaid and having unrealistic expectations showered upon him? It is not unrealistic to think he will be a capable starter.

The more difficult trade is Luongo. As Schnieder remains unsigned, I have to think he has thought of some of these scenarios, too. It is not unheard of for NHL teams to annoint a starting goalie and award him a big contract anticipating it. I think the grip Gillis has on Schnieder grows more tenuous with each passing day.

Imagine if Gillis lets Schnieder go for compensation! Even if Schnieder is given a contract in excess of five million and the return is the maximum number of picks, the Canucks lose unless Schnieder goes to a lottery pick team. This scenario seems more likely than moving along an aging starter who has apparently lost his position, but still is contractually owed a premium salary.

If some team has thier heart set on Luongo they better move quickly before events overtake tham and he is off the market. Gillis had bettyer act quickly, too, or his options might narrow.
You do not trade Roberto Luongo to a team in the division.

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06-09-2012, 07:26 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
I think Schneider's agent said that he wont be making a deal until Luongo is gone (or something like that).
Posted this in the last thread.

Schneider has 3 options:

1. Resign multiyear extension in Vancouver.

Doesn't guarantee starters duties, but that is clearly the intent.

2. Sign offersheet to go elsewhere.

Does not guarantee a starters role as Vancouver could match and he'd be stuck here for at least a year.

3. Signs Qualifying Offer (less than a million) and goes UFA next summer.

Option 1 is the least risky for Schneider. He gets paid and gives Vancouver wiggle room and leverage to get more for either goalie.

I can't see Schneider matching his 2011-2012 stats with more games, so 'hoping' youll have the same value in a year is certainly a risk for the Schneider camp.

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06-09-2012, 07:30 PM
  #22
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You do not trade Roberto Luongo to a team in the division.
You do for one of their big 4.

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06-09-2012, 07:35 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Posted this in the last thread.

Schneider has 3 options:

1. Resign multiyear extension in Vancouver.

Doesn't guarantee starters duties, but that is clearly the intent.

2. Sign offersheet to go elsewhere.

Does not guarantee a starters role as Vancouver could match and he'd be stuck here for at least a year.

3. Signs Qualifying Offer (less than a million) and goes UFA next summer.

Option 1 is the least risky for Schneider. He gets paid and gives Vancouver wiggle room and leverage to get more for either goalie.

I can't see Schneider matching his 2011-2012 stats with more games, so 'hoping' youll have the same value in a year is certainly a risk for the Schneider camp.
Option 1 is better for Gillis, but option 2 is better for Schneider. If he chooses option 1, he gives up any negotiating power he has. He could also wind up as a back-up again. If he chooses option 2, he can choose who he plays for and negotiate how much money he'll play for, and he can always switch to option 1 if need be.

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06-09-2012, 07:43 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
Option 1 is better for Gillis, but option 2 is better for Schneider. If he chooses option 1, he gives up any negotiating power he has. He could also wind up as a back-up again. If he chooses option 2, he can choose who he plays for and negotiate how much money he'll play for, and he can always switch to option 1 if need be.
OptiOn 2 with Canucks matching and he's screwed again.

I messed up anyways...if he isn't offersheeted and hasn't resigned in Vancouver he can be taken to arbitration by Vancouver...again hurting his bank account / Niemi won the cup as a starter and got 2.5

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06-09-2012, 07:48 PM
  #25
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Niemi won the cup as a starter and got 2.5
He was pretty meh (in fact, I think the only reason the Hawks-Canucks series went six games that year was because of Niemi [eg., not in a good way]).

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