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Luongo Trade Talk - Part VI

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06-16-2012, 05:16 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
Stats don't really interest me, i saw the games and I know that Luongo faced twice the amount of scoring chances in his two games than Schneider did in his 3.
The Canucks were not the same team in games 3,4 and 5 as they were in games 1 and 2, is that because of Schneider's influence in the goal? A fool might think so, but the reality is that the Canucks seemed to think they were gonna skate all over the Kings and didn't get their ass in the saddle until game 3 - that's all that happened.
Then why did Schneider give up half a goal a game less than Luongo during the regular season as well? Is he a superior player or did the team play better in front of him?

Surely the difference in competition isn't enough to explain the massive difference in their respective numbers...

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06-16-2012, 05:19 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I hope this is sarcasm I'm not picking up on. That was a rocket by a player known for having an excellent shot. It was labelled and went just under the bar.

Luongo wasn't criticized either when he had .940 + SV% in the playoffs. He was considered a God when he played well in the post season.

Cory Schneider was an absolute stud in the playoffs this year. Too much rubbish getting posted around here.
I think Luongo's performance in the Dallas series and Schneiders in the LA series are quite comparable. Both played excellent, as well as both of Turco and Quick. However, both series were incredibly defensive minded and I think as a result Luongo and Schneider's (and Turco and Quick's) performance was probably overrated.

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06-16-2012, 05:20 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Then why did Schneider give up half a goal a game less than Luongo during the regular season as well?
I guess for arguments sake I would have to see the competition Schneider faced before answering that.

I can't recall, but I don't think he was just given "sheltered" starts.

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06-16-2012, 05:22 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by MaximLapierre View Post
Or the Canucks truly do play better in front of Schneider...

No! You either give up grade "A" scoring chances or you don't. Games 3-5, the Canuck defence did what they should've been doing all along, keeping the pinches to a reasonable level, taking their man, leaving one d-man to clear the crease, keeping shots to the outside etc.
The one time that a Canuck Dman made a major lapse in judgement in those games was the series clincher and it was in the net. If you watch that OT, you could see that the Canucks were getting looser and looser by the second, they seemed to sense that they could win and forgot all about safe play and well....that was all she wrote.

P.S - If the Canucks played like crap for 2 playoff games and the game 3 said "whew, we got Corey in the net, lets play better", then this team has big time motivational issues.

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06-16-2012, 05:26 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I hope this is sarcasm I'm not picking up on. That was a rocket by a player known for having an excellent shot. It was labelled and went just under the bar.

Luongo wasn't criticized either when he had .940 + SV% in the playoffs. He was considered a God when he played well in the post season.

Cory Schneider was an absolute stud in the playoffs this year. Too much rubbish getting posted around here.
Look at the rebound on the only goal of game 3...served up on a platter.

BTW, Stoll is known for the one timer, not the wrister, and it doesn't matter what sport you play (soccer, hockey, lacross) you can't let goals beat you short side (much like Marchand on Lu in game 6 against Boston).

I feel bad for Cory, the amount of pressure he will face when he becomes 'the guy' in Vancouver will be even more than the pressure Luongo has had.

Luongo was replacing Auld/Cloutier....pretty easy to out do that....It won't be quite as easy to out do Luongo in Vancouver, as much as people want to discredit what Roberto had done...there are some ENORMOUS shoes to fill.

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06-16-2012, 05:28 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by Eddy Punch Clock View Post
I guess for arguments sake I would have to see the competition Schneider faced before answering that.

I can't recall, but I don't think he was just given "sheltered" starts.
I wouldn't say Schneider was 'sheltered', though his competition was easier than Luongo's. Enough though to explain a massive discrepency in their respective stats? I would say definately not.

Schneider looks like the better goalie of the 2 IMO and I'm not surprised his numbers were vastly better.

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06-16-2012, 05:29 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Look at the rebound on the only goal of game 3...served up on a platter.

BTW, Stoll is known for the one timer, not the wrister, and it doesn't matter what sport you play (soccer, hockey, lacross) you can't let goals beat you short side (much like Marchand on Lu in game 6 against Boston).
That isn't true. If the player makes a perfect shot (and Stoll's wasn't far off) you are going to beat a goalie short side. That shot was a laser IIRC.

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06-16-2012, 05:31 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I wouldn't say Schneider was 'sheltered', though his competition was easier than Luongo's. Enough though to explain a massive discrepency in their respective stats? I would say definately not.

Schneider looks like the better goalie of the 2 IMO and I'm not surprised his numbers were vastly better.
Didn't Schneider only start 1/3 of the games....that could also be why his numbers are better.

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06-16-2012, 05:33 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Didn't Schneider only start 1/3 of the games....that could also be why his numbers are better.
Playing less games doesn't necessarily make it easier to post better numbers. In fact, back up goalies often talk about how much harder it is to get any rhythm when you are only playing once a week or less like Schneider.

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06-16-2012, 05:33 PM
  #910
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One way to beat a goalie like Schneider, are with grade A shots like Stoll's.

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06-16-2012, 05:34 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
When you have a 0.960 save percentage and 1.31GAA people aren't going to be as critical of the goals you let in. Makes sense to me.
That being said, it was crystal clear at the end of game 2, none of the games lost were Luongo's fault. NOW, apparently they are. Something doesn't check out with that logic for me...It was pretty clear to anyone with eyes that the Canucks played better in games 3-5 than 1-2.

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06-16-2012, 05:35 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by Hodgy View Post
That isn't true. If the player makes a perfect shot (and Stoll's wasn't far off) you are going to beat a goalie short side. That shot was a laser IIRC.
Absolutely it was a lazer that was labelled top shelf. Not an unstoppable shot, but to call it a 'bad' goal is just sillyness. Bad goals are from distance or go through the goaltender - that was neither.

Of the dozen or so analysts that covered the series was there even 1 that refered to that as a weak goal?

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06-16-2012, 05:36 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
That being said, it was crystal clear at the end of game 2, none of the games lost were Luongo's fault. NOW, apparently they are. Something doesn't check out with that logic for me...It was pretty clear to anyone with eyes that the Canucks played better in games 3-5 than 1-2.
That's because the team wasn't prepared to play games 1-2. AV basically admitted he did not have the team prepared and that he was caught off guard when Daniel wasn't available for the start of the series. That's not acceptable.

And if our team can play better in front of one goalie than the other, that says a lot about how mentally fragile our team is. If that's the case, we need a complete shakeup of our teams leadership core.

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06-16-2012, 05:36 PM
  #914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Absolutely it was a lazer that was labelled top shelf. Not an unstoppable shot, but to call it a 'bad' goal is just sillyness. Bad goals are from distance or go through the goaltender - that was neither.

Of the dozen or so analysts that covered the series was there even 1 that refered to that as a weak goal?
If Luongo had let that one in it would be deemed a bad goal, but because it's Schneider people want to judge the goal normally.

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06-16-2012, 05:37 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Didn't Schneider only start 1/3 of the games....that could also be why his numbers are better.
Playing once every 10-14 days doesn't make a goaltenders job easy, it makes it more difficult.

Imagine what Luongo's numbers would look like if he played once every couple weeks...

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06-16-2012, 05:40 PM
  #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Imagine what Luongo's numbers would look like if he played once every couple weeks...
...or if he didn't play in October.

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06-16-2012, 05:41 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
If Luongo had let that one in it would be deemed a bad goal, but because it's Schneider people want to judge the goal normally.
Luongo would not have been blasted for that goal. When he gets criticized, it's for much more stoppable plays than that one.

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06-16-2012, 05:43 PM
  #918
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Stoll beat Schneider on a 2 on 1.


This is a soft goal.

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06-16-2012, 05:46 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Then why did Schneider give up half a goal a game less than Luongo during the regular season as well? Is he a superior player or did the team play better in front of him?

Surely the difference in competition isn't enough to explain the massive difference in their respective numbers...
Someone posted the teams that Schneider started against and it was over 70% non-playoff teams. So yes, many sheltered starts, but also what that means is that Luongo was able to start only about 30-35% of his games versus non-playoff teams. Essentially, Luongo started about 65% of his games against playoff teams while Schneider only had to face playoff teams about 30% of the time. This is just one reason.

Another is that streak that Schneider went on. Yes, he played well, but he padded his stats with 2 shutouts over a 4-5 game span that included teams like Ott, Col, CBJ and PHO. After that streak, he was quite ordinary. (As my above post, Ottawa and Phonix were playoff teams, but just barely)

Thirdly, Luongo was pulled from about 3-4 games this year (this obviously doesn't bode well for any Luongo arguments, but..), and what happens then is that the opposing teams play different and get into shutdown mode, Schneider was the beneficiary of about 4 such games where he almost literally had nothing to do but watch some team send in one forechecker. Now, I'm not really trying to dispel Schneider's abilities as much as demonstrate that the stats don't tell the entire story. If anyone has games on TIVO, they'll agree that some games Schneider spent 2 solid periods fielding dump ins and padding stats.

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06-16-2012, 05:47 PM
  #920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Luongo would not have been blasted for that goal. When he gets criticized, it's for much more stoppable plays than that one.
Luongo got blasted for a goal where a Coyotes player was left alone in front of the net. Luongo gets blasted for a goal where TWO American players were left alone behind the Canadian defense to score a late goal. Luongo gets blasted for a goal where he's blatantly screened by Henrik.

Luongo gets blasted for 90% of the goals he lets in.

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06-16-2012, 05:49 PM
  #921
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
Indeed! That goal had stink all over it. We can hear about a goal on Luongo from 5 years back, but we never hear anyone talk about Schneider's weak season ending goal this year. That shot looked like something from a pre-game warm-up and Schneider wasn't even close to stopping it.
I love Cory Schneider, but peopl have to remember that he has weaknesses too...

Remember game 4 vs Chicago when he gave away the puck?

And remember this nearly costly giveaway from this year?


Luongo has never been a good puck handler either, but Schneider is way riskier.

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06-16-2012, 05:52 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
Someone posted the teams that Schneider started against and it was over 70% non-playoff teams. So yes, many sheltered starts, but also what that means is that Luongo was able to start only about 30-35% of his games versus non-playoff teams. Essentially, Luongo started about 65% of his games against playoff teams while Schneider only had to face playoff teams about 30% of the time. This is just one reason.
Don't think your numbers are accurate. I believe Luongo faced playoff teams around 50% of the time, whereas Schneider did so around 35% of the time. I would attribute some of the gap to Luongo's more difficult competition but that doesn't explain the massive difference in their respective SV% and GAA...

Schneider's numbers were better because he brought a consistent level of play Luongo just couldn't match.

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06-16-2012, 05:53 PM
  #923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Stoll beat Schneider on a 2 on 1.


This is a soft goal.
You know what's soft? 8 goals in 7 games. Or how about the fact that not one meaningful goal was scored with the Cup on the line? How about one, count it, 1 goal was scored in periods 1 AND 2 in ALL 7 games in the Final from our side?

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06-16-2012, 05:54 PM
  #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Don't think your numbers are accurate. I believe Luongo faced playoff teams around 50% of the time, whereas Schneider did so around 35% of the time. I would attribute some of the gap to Luongo's more difficult competition but that doesn't explain the massive difference in their respective SV% and GAA...

Schneider's numbers were better because he brought a consistent level of play Luongo just couldn't match.
Schneider also had a 0.960SHSVP which is unreal. A lot of that had to do with luck, and once that regresses to the mean you will see his numbers regress.

Their ESSVP numbers were comparable, and if you discount Schneider's ESSVP numbers by just 2% to account for his sheltered starts it becomes clear that his stats were on par/worse than Luongos.

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06-16-2012, 05:55 PM
  #925
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Schneider vs Luongo is gonna be a great story next year as they both play for their respective teams

You got to think at least one will be in the Vezina running and the team Luongo ends up on will become a rival team for the first year or two

I enjoy the debate on his trade value and possible teams a lot, it's been nice actually having something we can argue over with some actual substance


Just to address the strome comment, it's definetly the draft position not an attack on a player, like gudbrannson going so early and fowler so late, some players are horrible top ten picks and incredible ten to twenty picks, thats the fun of watching the draft
Ps strome is a huge bust cause he isn't in the NHL :p

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