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Toughness Debate Thread: Laraque making a come back?

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06-11-2012, 06:45 AM
  #126
Kimota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnforcerWeNeed View Post
But Bergevin said on Tout le monde en parle: "The era of goons is over, now you must bring something else, not just fights".

Since enforcers are seen in Montreal like goons that can't skate (like in the movie: Goon) and play at all, I'm guessing that means no Parros/Hordichuk/Carkner/etc.
Well John Ferguson was one of the toughest guy ever and he could play hockey too. Look at the Rocket. You can be tough and yet bring something else to the dance. There was never any honor of having morons like John Kordick or Gord Donnely on the ice.

Then again it depends how you use them when you have them. Enforcers are there to add to the intimidation. Martin wasn't willing to use toughness as part of his strategy hence having a fourth line of tough guys was not useful to him. One of the best coach right now to use toughness is Paul Maclean with the Sens. I love how when the Sens are lifeless, the guy goon it up, he sends his tougher guys. Most of the time last year the teams that played the Sens ended the match pretty much black and blue. That's what the Habs should aspire to be. But again, a fourth line of tough guys doesn't mean guys that only fight a la Laraque. You have to hit, you have to focus on certain players to change the momentum. What BGL did was just wrestling and never helped the team. The guy did not even hit! So there was zero intimidation.

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06-11-2012, 06:46 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Habs Fan in NJ View Post
Some of the replies these goon-related threads in our forum get really make me scratch my head.

Seems like a lot of people are content with our team being a bunch of whimps who get pushed around easily.
whimp: wimpy chimp?

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06-11-2012, 06:47 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
No kidding. I think some are getting into the notion we must be like boston or something. A tradition of icing goons and gooning it up last minutes for moral victories that got them 1 cup win in over 40 years.
Don't you get it? It's all about R - E- V - E - N - G - E.

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06-11-2012, 06:49 AM
  #129
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I love in the movie Goon how they pretty much laughed at BGL with his code concept. The guy played by Stiffler is like "why the Hell is this guy asking me good luck?"

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06-11-2012, 06:50 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
It was nice to see those teams be able to stand up for themselves but one little problem... How many cups did the team win with those teams, combined? It takes more than just an enforcer or two to win hockey games. The Habs top 6 currently at this moment will not win games offensively. The inexperienced defense still need to grow. If you put an enforcer or two on this team right now and change nothing else, what will it solve? Perhaps a scrap here and there to get a moral victory? Sorry, give me a couple of guys for the bottom 6 that can playing a strong, physical game with hockey skills over an enforcer any day.



Sounds like a great idea. He should totally make a new thread.

overlords
1993 = Stanley Cup = Ewen, Roberge, Odelein
1986 = Stanley Cup = McPhee, Tremblay, Nilan, Chelios, Momesso, Lemieux, Kordic, Corson...

Yes we want skill in the top 6, but we want fighters on the 4th line

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06-11-2012, 07:24 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
1993 = Stanley Cup = Ewen, Roberge, Odelein
1986 = Stanley Cup = McPhee, Tremblay, Nilan, Chelios, Momesso, Lemieux, Kordic, Corson...

Yes we want skill in the top 6, but we want fighters on the 4th line
Let me quote that again for you.

Quote:
Sorry, give me a couple of guys for the bottom 6 that can playing a strong, physical game with hockey skills over an enforcer any day.
The only good example you gave is Kordic. The rest are talented hockey players first, fighters second. Ewen was an enforcer, but he played 1 playoff game that season. Didn't help win the cup at all.

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06-11-2012, 07:26 AM
  #132
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Personally I'd be pretty satisfied with Moen-White-Staubitz as a 4th line and Carkner as 6th defenseman.

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06-11-2012, 08:01 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Personally I'd be pretty satisfied with Moen-White-Staubitz as a 4th line and Carkner as 6th defenseman.
I think we need another bottom 6 forward more than staubitz. So i'd consider Prust over Staubitz. Other than that, as a person who cares relatively little about fighting, I see no reason to push beyond that unless the player is actually offensively gifted as well.

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06-11-2012, 08:05 AM
  #134
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I understood completely why BGL never attacked Lucic. What would have happened to the rest of the Habs that game? The Patches incident x10.

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06-11-2012, 08:56 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Personally I'd be pretty satisfied with Moen-White-Staubitz as a 4th line and Carkner as 6th defenseman.
I'd be happier if Staubitz was 13th Foward and Carkner 7th D. I'm not sure either are players you want to be a part of your full time plans. Not actively opposed to either being on the roster though.

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06-11-2012, 08:57 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Personally I'd be pretty satisfied with Moen-White-Staubitz as a 4th line and Carkner as 6th defenseman.
I'd rather have Staubitz as say the 13th forward and Carkner as the 7th or 8th D. I've had them in some of my lineup wishes. They'd both get to play enough. But honestly, I don't think either one is good enough to be an everyday regular for a good team. They have good character and work ethic, so the days they aren't playing they will still help the team. And with the injury attrition in the modern game, even the guys pencilled in as your 13th forward and #7/8 D are going to play as much in the end as some guys slotted ahead of them. You have to try to build a better starting 12/6 first, though.

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06-11-2012, 09:07 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
1993 = Stanley Cup = Ewen, Roberge, Odelein
1986 = Stanley Cup = McPhee, Tremblay, Nilan, Chelios, Momesso, Lemieux, Kordic, Corson...

Yes we want skill in the top 6, but we want fighters on the 4th line
Most of those guys can play good hockey too.

Let's concentrate on filling up the top 6 before adding a bunch of tough guys to the team. It worked in the past WHEN they had a skilled top 6. In the new NHL with one scoring line, it will fail as it has been failing the last 10+ years. Sorry.

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06-11-2012, 10:39 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by loudi94 View Post
I understood completely why BGL never attacked Lucic. What would have happened to the rest of the Habs that game? The Patches incident x10.
Not if Chara was afraid to cheapshot some guy.

Problem is, Scott Gomez, Brian Gionta and David Desharnais aren't really persuasive forces.

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06-11-2012, 10:43 AM
  #139
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Laraque should stay were he is. I don't want him near this team. Give me a though guy that can fight but also play a bit of hockey

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06-11-2012, 10:46 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
It was nice to see those teams be able to stand up for themselves but one little problem... How many cups did the team win with those teams, combined? It takes more than just an enforcer or two to win hockey games. The Habs top 6 currently at this moment will not win games offensively. The inexperienced defense still need to grow. If you put an enforcer or two on this team right now and change nothing else, what will it solve? Perhaps a scrap here and there to get a moral victory? Sorry, give me a couple of guys for the bottom 6 that can playing a strong, physical game with hockey skills over an enforcer any day.
1993: Lyle Odelein, Mario Roberge, Todd Ewen
1986: Chris Nilan, John Kordic

It definitly doesn't make you lose more games doesn't it?? How many teams won with a puss roster? One: the Red Wimps.

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06-11-2012, 10:52 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Laraque should stay were he is. I don't want him near this team. Give me a though guy that can fight but also play a bit of hockey
There aren't much I'd say. Lucic, Neil and Rupp are keepers.

When you get a tough guy from the UFA market, you can't get really etter than Matt Carkner this off-season.

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06-11-2012, 10:55 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Personally I'd be pretty satisfied with Moen-White-Staubitz as a 4th line and Carkner as 6th defenseman.
Only Staubitz really intimidate in that group, really. I don't think that's enough.

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06-11-2012, 11:00 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Only Staubitz really intimidate in that group, really. I don't think that's enough.
Staubitz isn't intimidating at all. Sorry...

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06-11-2012, 11:01 AM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnforcerWeNeed View Post
1993: Lyle Odelein, Mario Roberge, Todd Ewen
1986: Chris Nilan, John Kordic

It definitly doesn't make you lose more games doesn't it?? How many teams won with a puss roster? One: the Red Wimps.
This point was already brought up and a rebuttal was already given in post #28.

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06-11-2012, 11:05 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
This point was already brought up and a rebuttal was already given in post #28.
Most Carkners, Boultons and Thorntons can handle themselves in a hockey game. I don't know where is your point.

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06-11-2012, 11:07 AM
  #146
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To get back to what the OP wrote, I think that some of it is that star players more often take "policing" into their own hands than they used to.

I remember Cherry showing video footage of Crosby really pushing/knocking around other players; footage of Crosby actively involved in very chippy, aggressive, and frankly borderline dirty play. I honestly can't recall Gretzky ever bothering with that sort of stuff.

Crosby, for good or for ill, takes it on himself to "protect himself". In past eras, one of the enforcer/goon's main jobs was to protect his teams' star player(s). If the star player sometimes acts like an enforcer/goon himself then it becomes more questionable why you'd need an enforcer/goon to protect him.


Mind you, this doesn't help the Habs any, because our top players aren't always that good at fighting through the opposition taking liberties with them. We really could use an enforcer.

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06-11-2012, 11:19 AM
  #147
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NJ, LA, Boston don't have "enforcers"/goons. Nobody in the classic sense of Kordic, Ewen, etc. There are so few of those in the NHL anymore, and it's telling that the few who have managed to avoid extinction still don't play every day, nor in the playoffs. Get big/tough players, sure. I'll take Thornton or Clifford on my energy lines. But they have to be able to play too. And that's what most teams have figured out. The margin of victory is so narrow in the modern game, you often can't afford even 5 shifts or 5 minutes with sub-par players on the ice anymore. It's too risky vs. the supposed reward (some nebulous "protection" or intimidation element that may not apply to modern players so readily as maybe it once did either).

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06-11-2012, 11:24 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by EnforcerWeNeed View Post
Most Carkners, Boultons and Thorntons can handle themselves in a hockey game. I don't know where is your point.
Shawn Thornton is probably one of the best heavyweights in the league that can combine fists with good hockey ability on the bottom six. Boulton and Carkner? Habs have a guy like that in Staubitz, should he re-sign with the Habs, that is better defensively.

Boulton can handle himself in a hockey game? In a fight, sure. In an actual hockey game, nope. Carkner maybe, but I'll take White over Carkner. Just my opinion.

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06-11-2012, 11:54 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Shawn Thornton is probably one of the best heavyweights in the league that can combine fists with good hockey ability on the bottom six. Boulton and Carkner? Habs have a guy like that in Staubitz, should he re-sign with the Habs, that is better defensively.

Boulton can handle himself in a hockey game? In a fight, sure. In an actual hockey game, nope. Carkner maybe, but I'll take White over Carkner. Just my opinion.
Boulton and Carkner both are better hockey players than Staubitz. Numbers aren't everything. Staubitz has one empty-net goal last season in 62 games. Matt Carkner is a better hockey player than the Alexandre Picards/Paul Maras we had during the last years + one of the biggest enforcers with an impressive record of 31-9-8 according to dropyourgloves.com

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06-11-2012, 12:00 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
NJ, LA, Boston don't have "enforcers"/goons. Nobody in the classic sense of Kordic, Ewen, etc. There are so few of those in the NHL anymore, and it's telling that the few who have managed to avoid extinction still don't play every day, nor in the playoffs. Get big/tough players, sure. I'll take Thornton or Clifford on my energy lines. But they have to be able to play too. And that's what most teams have figured out. The margin of victory is so narrow in the modern game, you often can't afford even 5 shifts or 5 minutes with sub-par players on the ice anymore. It's too risky vs. the supposed reward (some nebulous "protection" or intimidation element that may not apply to modern players so readily as maybe it once did either).
New Jersey had Cam Janssen and Eric Boulton (combined: one assist in 99 games).
Los Angeles had Kevin Westgarth and, bottom line, Kyle Clifford. Both guys know how to play.
Boston has Thornton as their enforcer, and Chara and Lucic who can take on heavyweights.

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