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06-10-2012, 02:12 PM
  #1
Renegade Stylings
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Expectations For MA Gragnani

Where does he fit into the Canucks lineup, if at all, next year? What kind of totals might he be able to put up, including his potential PP role?

I've been a big fan of his for a while and still think he'll be a strong player for you guys once you get him under contract for next season.

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06-10-2012, 02:23 PM
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kthsn
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He's defensively weak but he has an offensive prowess only Edler surpasses at the moment.

I think he'll see a bunch of games as our #6/7 (similar to Franson) and play the PP.

The fact that he can play RD is invaluable to our team with Salo's future uncertain. The Nucks coaches are also very good at sheltering d-men.

The only worry I have is him learning our complex d-system. Most defensemen take a year to adapt - last season he was completely lost and a liability.

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06-10-2012, 02:25 PM
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Expectations are extremely low, as they should be.

Couldn't crack the Sabres (weaker team), isn't good at defending, and won be gifted a job.

That said he'll have potential to grab one of the last spots.

Salo and Rome are UFA.

Depth chart looks like this

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-
Ballard-Tanev
Alberts-
Gragnani-

What is evident is there is a huge hole on the right side in Vancouver, if Gragnani can play that side it bodes better for him, but he didn't show well in his limited games this year.

Problem with Vancouver's defense right now is only Hamhuis can play great defense. Too much risk associated to guys like Edler, Bieksa, Ballard and Gragnani...seems to me like they need a stay at home guy and a PP QB.

That is why you'll read a lot of fans dreaming of signing Justin Schultz and Jason Garrison.

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06-10-2012, 02:39 PM
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I think he has some good offensive upside, I believe they are hoping they can teach him defense.

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06-10-2012, 02:49 PM
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I expect him to be signed as he was brought in by Gillis. But hopefully by mid-season he is in the AHL or riding the press box.


DO NOT WANT.

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06-10-2012, 03:20 PM
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Slapshot_11
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I expect him to be in the AHL

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06-10-2012, 03:24 PM
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I'm not sure how he even earned the title of "offensive". He couldnt even crack the lineup on a weaker team, he's a huge defensive liability, he turns the puck over and he never shoots the puck!!

There were many occations last year when he received a pass on the blue line but would hesitate and end up just passing the puck. In fact last year the Canucks management had to talk to him to shoot more. He doesn't seem to skate or rush the puck up the ice better than any of our top 4...nor does his first break out pass stand out....he doesn't shoot the puck enough nor score very much so how did he ever coin the term as being offensive?

Is it because he is so bad defensively that his offensive game is the only part that sticks out? Or is it because he got 7 (or so) points in a playoff run a couple years ago?




PASS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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06-10-2012, 03:51 PM
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I expect that he will be come AV's new favorite and will be played insted of superior players, helping to completely screw up the team at both ends of the ice.

Hopefully he can become a decent depth guy at some point.

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06-10-2012, 03:55 PM
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In this thread: people make decisions and declarations based on nothing more than an extremely limited knowledge of his time with the Sabres an a 14 game sample size with the Canucks.





Gragnani probably starts the year with the Wolves, but will almost certainly get a call up at one point. He's a pretty high event player - he generates a lot of chances at either end of the ice. If the Canucks are protecting a 3rd period lead, I'd be surprised to see Gragnani get more than a shift or two. If they're down by 1 or 2 goals, they'll probably give him prime offensive opportunities.

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06-10-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slapshot_11 View Post
I expect him to be in the AHL
If he makes it there. If we can sneak him through waivers in the big rush of moves as teams cut their rosters down, maybe over the course of a season MacT can teach him enough defence to not be a liability.

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06-10-2012, 03:58 PM
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He'll be a reliable depth call up. I remember him (unlike Pahlson) being absolutely ecstatic to be traded here so let's see where that motivation takes him in training camp.

Not that I'm advocating this, but I have read that he has played wing in the past too... just sayin'.


btw- didn't Selzer actually have really decent point production n his short stint with the Sabres? Again... just sayin'

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06-10-2012, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
In this thread: people make decisions and declarations based on nothing more than an extremely limited knowledge of his time with the Sabres an a 14 game sample size with the Canucks.





Gragnani probably starts the year with the Wolves, but will almost certainly get a call up at one point. He's a pretty high event player - he generates a lot of chances at either end of the ice. If the Canucks are protecting a 3rd period lead, I'd be surprised to see Gragnani get more than a shift or two. If they're down by 1 or 2 goals, they'll probably give him prime offensive opportunities.
Hey man, we're Canucks fans. We clamour to replace franchise legends based on small sample sizes.

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Old
06-10-2012, 09:16 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy Punch Clock View Post
btw- didn't Selzer actually have really decent point production n his short stint with the Sabres? Again... just sayin'
not only that but he could actually play defense

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06-10-2012, 11:10 PM
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Gragnani is 25 and after 5 full pro seasons, still defends that poorly? rome and salo >>>> AINEC.

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06-10-2012, 11:16 PM
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I don't really expect much from him. He'll get looks, and i'm sure he'll be retained...but i really hope he's not one of our top-8 options on the blueline come the start of next season.

The problem is, he really still needs more AHL seasoning to sort out the defensive and physical side of his game, and continue to refine his offensive game and improve his breakout passes within the Canucks system. But his waiver eligibility status really puts a wrinkle in that. So far as i can figure, that along with his potential UFA status were a big motivator in the Sabres moving him out. I just don't see how he's a viable option on a team that relegates a 'risky' player like Ballard to the 3rd pairing, and deemed a guy like Ehrhoff expendable. Not to mention, we already have a good contingent of 'risky' blueliners in the fold.

There is a small amount of intriguing potential there, but i just don't see Vancouver as a great place to build on that.

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06-10-2012, 11:18 PM
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Honestly, at this point I'd rather K-Conn was given a shot over Crapnani.

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06-10-2012, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Expectations are extremely low, as they should be.

Couldn't crack the Sabres (weaker team), isn't good at defending, and won be gifted a job.

That said he'll have potential to grab one of the last spots.

Salo and Rome are UFA.

Depth chart looks like this

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-
Ballard-Tanev
Alberts-
Gragnani-

What is evident is there is a huge hole on the right side in Vancouver, if Gragnani can play that side it bodes better for him, but he didn't show well in his limited games this year.

Problem with Vancouver's defense right now is only Hamhuis can play great defense. Too much risk associated to guys like Edler, Bieksa, Ballard and Gragnani...seems to me like they need a stay at home guy and a PP QB.

That is why you'll read a lot of fans dreaming of signing Justin Schultz and Jason Garrison.
The somewhat unnecessary acquisition of MAG, for me portends the end of the costly Ballard era in VAN.

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06-11-2012, 01:11 AM
  #18
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I still don't understand how Mitchell wasn't resigned.

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06-11-2012, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganja View Post
I still don't understand how Mitchell wasn't resigned.
he was slow, one-dimensional, and his head was all scrambled.

just because the Kings are in the finals now, doesn't mean it's particularly relevant to the NHL climate or team direction when Gillis decided not to re-sign Mitchell.

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06-11-2012, 03:34 AM
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I'm actually optimistic on Gragniani. I'm not sure if he'll crack the top-six (as a full regular on the defense) but I see him spotting in and out of the lineup with a decent level of frequency.

He's gonna be used for his offensive prowess and hopefully, he'll get paired with someone who can cover for him. He needs the freedom to wander. He has the tools to be a puckmover and a rushing defenseman. He should get some PP time.

When Gragniani played with Tanev, he actually looked pretty good. That pairing had some impressive Corsi numbers and their chances for/against was stellar for several games. Grags ran into some trouble when AV put the D pairings into the blender down the final stretch but honestly, the D was in total disarray during that period and it wasn't a surprise that Gragniani had some awful games near the end. There was little stability during AV's defensive experimentations and it only made sense that the new guy (and a guy who needs to get bailed out occasionally by his partner) ended up having a pair of -2 games in his last two games dressed with the Canucks.

For the season, Grags' 15 points put him on a 20+ points pace over 82 games. I think we were only getting glimpses of what he's capable of (in terms of his positives). His Relative Corsi (2011-12 season) of 13.1 was 5th best on the team.

His advanced +/- breakdown was also pretty impressive:

GFon/60= 2.62
GAon/60= 1.90

+/-on/60 = +0.71

GFoff/60= 1.98
GAoff/60= 2.58

+/-off/60= -0.59

Those numbers suggest that, in terms of goals for and against (and the scoreboard is really where everything matters), Gragniani makes his team stronger when he's on the ice (+0.71 goals per 60 minutes) and that his team is weaker when he's off the ice (-0.59 goals per 60 minutes).

He's certainly an adventure to watch but surprisingly, after looking at him closely during several of his games with the Canucks, he actually seemed to do more good things than bad things and, on balance, his stats support this view. Gragniani definitely creates chances and shots and, while sometimes these end up coming on his own net, more often than not, when he's on the ice, he's helping to create offensive opportunities, shooting events (shots/misses/blocks), and O-zone puck possession.

He'll certainly need to work on his giveaways/takeaways ratio (33 to 10 during 2011-12) and he needs to work on handling pressure in the defensive zone. Gragniani tends to look nearly as afraid of the puck in his own end as he covets it in the offensive zone. Hopefully, the coaches can help him with this. There's no denying that he struggled against pressure in his own end and made some poor decisions with the puck. However, I think that much of this (but not all of it) can be corrected with practice and greater familiarity with his teammates and with team systems. He'll need to be used properly and he needs a stable partner to play with.

Assuming MG signs him, I think that M.A. Gragniani will look to make the most of his opportunity in Vancouver. With a full offseason, training camp, and preseason of meetings, watching tape, training, coaching, practices, and preseason games with the Canucks, I'm expecting we'll see a much more effective player and his strengths will become more obvious while his weaknesses will be less pronounced. He'll always be high-risk--that's just the style he plays--however, I think he can be very effective and brings an impressive offensive skill set that can help this team.

As for needing AHL seasoning, he's still young and the Chicago has a good staff that can help him develop, but he was already the 2011-12 AHL Outstanding Defenseman (Eddie Shore Trophy) and a 2011-12 AHL 1st Team All-Star. Over 63 games that season, he scored 12 goals and 48 assists for 60 points, and was a +22. He could certainly benefit from further tutelage in the defensive side of the game, and he can get that in the AHL, but to reach his full potential, he'll need the opportunity to translate his offensive success from the AHL to the NHL level. That means giving him games with the big club and giving him a real opportunity to prove himself.

Nothing's certain (and there are plenty of opportunities for failure) but I'm optimistic that the Canucks are in for a pleasant surprise from M.A. Gragniani in the 2012-13 season.

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Old
06-11-2012, 05:27 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganja View Post
I still don't understand how Mitchell wasn't resigned.
Was an offer not on the table from us? He skated for us and I thought we made an offer. I thought he took LA over us because it was a multi-year deal (and more money). This is what I was hearing when he signed with LA and of course the issue went untouched until now when LA is doing good and all of a sudden it is 'we didn't re-sign him' I'm not sure how true that is, guys. I'll be willing to withdraw this opinion provided further evidence is presented.

ANYWAYS. Expectations of Gragnani next season: low. Hopefully he surprises me in a good way.

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Old
06-11-2012, 07:12 AM
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If we don't acquire another defenceman with the ability to really run a PP, I could see him getting a shot. If we do, he could be made redundant.

Would we rather a Ballard-Tanev 3rd pair at 5.1M or a Gragnani-Tanev 3rd pair at 2-2.5(???). That of course assumes the Ballard experiment is jettisoned.

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Old
06-11-2012, 07:17 AM
  #23
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Looks like he's been hitting the gym hard.....lol

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06-11-2012, 08:09 AM
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I still don't understand how Mitchell wasn't resigned.
His PCS was so bad he had spend months silent and in the dark? By all means, throw money at that guy.

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Old
06-11-2012, 11:43 AM
  #25
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No idea where he fits. Most Canuck fans don't even have him pencilled in as their #7, personally I don't either. I could see him surprising us though and earning a job, its just difficult to predict right now.

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