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JVR Surgery Discussion (update post #356: No hip surgery for JVR, Holmgren confirms)

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06-11-2012, 12:20 AM
  #26
Haute Couturier
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
I have no idea what Eskin said on TV but if you look at his tweets it doesn't say that he is avoiding surgery so Holmgren can't trade him. All he is saying is that JVR is delaying having his surgery and it could be holding up a trade. Nowhere does he directly say that he is delaying his surgery so he doesn't get traded.
You're right but it's not going to stop people from thinking that and hating on him anyway. It's only a matter of time before he is run out of town next.

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06-11-2012, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
I have no idea what Eskin said on TV but if you look at his tweets it doesn't say that he is avoiding surgery so Holmgren can't trade him. All he is saying is that JVR is delaying having his surgery and it could be holding up a trade. Nowhere does he directly say that he is delaying his surgery so he doesn't get traded.

I was going to say the same thing.

But even if OP is right, it's for the best (if JVR is truly being obstructive). Nash would barely be worth his cap hit as a free agent, let alone sending an asset like JVR the other way.

Did anyone actually see Eskin's story on NBC and/or get a transcript?


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You're right but it's not going to stop people from thinking that and hating on him anyway. It's only a matter of time before he is run out of town next.
Fans don't trade players. I'm not sure what you're imagining when you talk about anyone getting "run out of town."

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06-11-2012, 12:41 AM
  #28
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I don't see how Nash with a 7.8 cap hit is worth anything, let alone JVR.

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06-11-2012, 12:43 AM
  #29
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I don't see how Nash with a 7.8 cap hit is worth anything, let alone JVR.
Because Nash already is what we all hope JvR turns into...with NO talent around him. Nash with Giroux is 75-90 pts a year.

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06-11-2012, 12:44 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I was going to say the same thing.

But even if OP is right, it's for the best (if JVR is truly being obstructive). Nash would barely be worth his cap hit as a free agent, let alone sending an asset like JVR the other way.

Did anyone actually see Eskin's story on NBC and/or get a transcript?




Fans don't trade players. I'm not sure what you're imagining when you talk about anyone getting "run out of town."
Different sport, but last year the Union's coach said they got rid of a player because of the fans. Joni Pitkanen wanted out because he was booed here. You're naive if you don't think the poisonous attitude fans display towards certain players don't ever play a role in a player leaving.

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06-11-2012, 12:44 AM
  #31
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Nash with Giroux would be amazing. Then throw in Voracek and that forms one of the best lines in hockey.

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06-11-2012, 12:46 AM
  #32
Haute Couturier
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Because Nash already is what we all hope JvR turns into...with NO talent around him. Nash with Giroux is 75-90 pts a year.
At the age of 28 I don't think Nash is going to get much better. His peak years are largely behind him.

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06-11-2012, 12:48 AM
  #33
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JVR PPG pace this season (while hurt/best season): 46
Nash PPG pace this season: 59
Nash PPG pace best season: 83

JVR production per cap hit (assuming it stagnates at hurt levels): 10.82
Nash production per cap hit: 07.56
Nash best production per cap hit: 10.64


DO. NOT. WANT. NASH. AT. 7.8M/YEAR.

It's STUPID to trade JVR for Nash. End of discussion.

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06-11-2012, 12:49 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
At the age of 28 I don't think Nash is going to get much better. His peak years are largely behind him.
Nash playing on a line with Giroux and Nash's peak years will then begin.

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06-11-2012, 12:51 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
At the age of 28 I don't think Nash is going to get much better. His peak years are largely behind him.
I don't believe that for a second, not someone of his skill level. Stick him on an annual contender next to one of the best distributors in hockey and watch him explode.

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06-11-2012, 12:51 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
JVR PPG pace this season (while hurt/best season): 46
Nash PPG pace this season: 59
Nash PPG pace best season: 83

JVR production per cap hit (assuming it stagnates at hurt levels): 10.82
Nash production per cap hit: 07.56
Nash best production per cap hit: 10.64


DO. NOT. WANT. NASH. AT. 7.8M/YEAR.

It's STUPID to trade JVR for Nash. End of discussion.
Yup. It's stupid to trade for Nash period. I seriously question if something is wrong with Holmgren if he thinks Nash is the solution to anything.

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06-11-2012, 12:53 AM
  #37
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7.8 isn't that bad for an elite first line talent who could score 40-50 goals with Giroux. Hartnell had 37 this year with Giroux.

Nash has 6 years left at 7.8. Parise will get at least 6.5 and probably 7 for at least 6 years. I would guess 6 years 7.2 for Parise. Not too much of a difference.

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06-11-2012, 12:54 AM
  #38
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I don't believe that for a second, not someone of his skill level. Stick him on an annual contender next to one of the best distributors in hockey and watch him explode.
He is a 30+ goal scorer/60+ point player. He's Jeff Carter making $8M a year. Goal scorers peak early. It's a complete fantasy to think he's going to turn into a 50 goal scorer as soon as he gets to Philly.

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06-11-2012, 12:55 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by nuclear reactor View Post
7.8 isn't that bad for an elite first line talent who could score 40-50 goals with Giroux. Hartnell had 37 this year with Giroux.

Nash has 6 years left at 7.8. Parise will get at least 6.5 and probably 7 for at least 6 years. I would guess 6 years 7.2 for Parise. Not too much of a difference.
Yes, but one involves trading assets for and the other doesn't. I would take Parise at 7.2 over Nash at 7.8 after trading JVR for him.

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06-11-2012, 12:57 AM
  #40
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I don't believe that for a second, not someone of his skill level. Stick him on an annual contender next to one of the best distributors in hockey and watch him explode.
And cut his minutes by a sizable chunk and watch his numbers revert closer back to mean. For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction.

JVR's production per cap hit this year, when hurt, was his best year ever. Most of you complain about it, but it BLEW away Nash's best year in terms of production per cap hit, and on top of that, it beat Nash's best year.

There is also zero reason to think his numbers will significantly improve here despite having Giroux because not only is he older, but he will also get less minutes.

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06-11-2012, 12:59 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Because Nash already is what we all hope JvR turns into...with NO talent around him. Nash with Giroux is 75-90 pts a year.
This this this. I'd rather give Nash 7.8 then give Suter 7.8! Who knows what Suter does without Weber, we already know what Nash does by himself why not see what he can do with Giroux! **** yea I'm excited I'd be the first one to have a #61 jersey. Re-sign Carle, JvR+picks prospects for Nash, and worry about upgrading D next year when close to 15 million is coming off the books. If reports are true 3 million 1 yr deal for Jagr, then Hartnell 4.2, Shelley 1.1, Timonen 6.3, Lilja .7, Jagr 3 = 15.3 mil.

We are going from 4.25 to 7.8 with JvR to Nash. Are you telling me Nash isn't worth 3.5 million more then JvR? He's exactly what we want JvR to be! People already think we most likely are going into next year with the same exact defense, with the cap going up by how much it is what it the issue with upgrading from JvR to Nash? People were impressed by an 8 game series JvR showed in the playoffs 2 years ago, well Nash does that almost every game by himself give him some people to play with and not just anyone give him Giroux to play with and see what happens.

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06-11-2012, 01:02 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
He is a 30+ goal scorer/60+ point player. He's Jeff Carter making $8M a year. Goal scorers peak early. It's a complete fantasy to think he's going to turn into a 50 goal scorer as soon as he gets to Philly.
He's a 30+ goal scorer/60+ point player with awful talent in Columbus. He's never had a passing Center. The best passer he ever played with was a 20-21 year old Jake Voracek...a winger. It's not a fantasy, that's how hockey works. Snipers on the wing flourish with excellent passers. See: Gagne with Forsberg, Gagne with Richards. Hit 40+ goals as a 27-28 year old. Jeff Carter couldn't get himself open for passes/finish passes, he created his own shot. Nash is lightyears better than Carter at creating space for himself to finish.

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06-11-2012, 01:05 AM
  #43
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And cut his minutes by a sizable chunk and watch his numbers revert closer back to mean. For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction.

JVR's production per cap hit this year, when hurt, was his best year ever. Most of you complain about it, but it BLEW away Nash's best year in terms of production per cap hit, and on top of that, it beat Nash's best year.

There is also zero reason to think his numbers will significantly improve here despite having Giroux because not only is he older, but he will also get less minutes.
Everyone keeps throwing stats stats stats at me. I know what Rick Nash's freakin stats are. I'll also CONTINUE TO REITERATE THAT HE HAS NEVER HAD TALENT AROUND HIM. Less minutes don't necessarily mean a decrease in production when there is such a VAST INCREASE IN TALENT around him. Stick him on our PP and our 1st line and watch the scoreboard light up. Decrease in minutes = a fresher Rick Nash for playoffs.

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06-11-2012, 01:08 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
He's a 30+ goal scorer/60+ point player with awful talent in Columbus. He's never had a passing Center. The best passer he ever played with was a 20-21 year old Jake Voracek...a winger. It's not a fantasy, that's how hockey works. Snipers on the wing flourish with excellent passers. See: Gagne with Forsberg, Gagne with Richards. Hit 40+ goals as a 27-28 year old. Jeff Carter couldn't get himself open for passes/finish passes, he created his own shot. Nash is lightyears better than Carter at creating space for himself to finish.
Elite hockey players make those around them better. They don't need others to elevate their game. Kovalchuk never played with a passing center in Atlanta and he hit 50 twice and was vastly superior to Nash. Nash is not elite and is not worth his cap hit. Kovalchuk is also no longer the same goal scorer now at the age of 29 (though he is still very good) so why should I think Nash is going to be any different? Face it, he's overrated and the excuse making for him is tiresome.

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06-11-2012, 01:20 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Everyone keeps throwing stats stats stats at me. I know what Rick Nash's freakin stats are. I'll also CONTINUE TO REITERATE THAT HE HAS NEVER HAD TALENT AROUND HIM. Less minutes don't necessarily mean a decrease in production when there is such a VAST INCREASE IN TALENT around him. Stick him on our PP and our 1st line and watch the scoreboard light up. Decrease in minutes = a fresher Rick Nash for playoffs.
So expectations for JVR are at the high end 50-60 points for 4.25m/year. Do you expect Nash to get more than 70 for 7.8m/year? Because those 10-20 extra points just cost you 3.5m/year. That's almost paying 2 JVR's for roughly the production of one.

Not to mention Nash is 28 and JVR just turned 23 I believe. Plus Nash is likely to cost you more than just JVR.

All things considered, unless Nash immediately turns into an 85-90+ point player in Philadelphia the trade is not worth it.

Odds on that? Slim to none, and even if he accomplishes it a year or two, he won't throughout his contract. JVR is a much better deal.

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06-11-2012, 01:23 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Elite hockey players make those around them better. They don't need others to elevate their game. Kovalchuk never played with a passing center in Atlanta and he hit 50 twice and was vastly superior to Nash. Nash is not elite and is not worth his cap hit. Kovalchuk is also no longer the same goal scorer now at the age of 29 (though he is still very good) so why should I think Nash is going to be any different? Face it, he's overrated and the excuse making for him is tiresome.
You must be joking. Kovy hit 50 in 05-06 playing with Hossa and Savard. No talent there.

01-04 w/ Heatley
05-08 w/ Hossa
02-06 w/ Savard

Hossa was with Kovy for every year he scored 50. Face it, you're being close-minded and don't have a clue what you're talking about. Kovy is no longer the same goalscorer because he plays with the Devils, in a defensive system. Everyone and their mother knew his stats were going to take a hit when he signed long term with them. Also, I have no problem at all saying Kovalchuk is more talented than Nash, because that's the 100% truth.

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06-11-2012, 01:25 AM
  #47
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You must be joking. Kovy hit 50 in 05-06 playing with Hossa and Savard. No talent there.

01-04 w/ Heatley
05-08 w/ Hossa
02-06 w/ Savard

Hossa was with Kovy for every year he scored 50. Face it, you're being close-minded and don't have a clue what you're talking about. Kovy is no longer the same goalscorer because he plays with the Devils, in a defensive system. Everyone and their mother knew his stats were going to take a hit when he signed long term with them. Also, I have no problem at all saying Kovalchuk is more talented than Nash, because that's the 100% truth.
He's older and has to share more minutes, including those vital PP minutes.

Which is exactly what would happen to Nash here.

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06-11-2012, 01:28 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Elite hockey players make those around them better. They don't need others to elevate their game. Kovalchuk never played with a passing center in Atlanta and he hit 50 twice and was vastly superior to Nash. Nash is not elite and is not worth his cap hit. Kovalchuk is also no longer the same goal scorer now at the age of 29 (though he is still very good) so why should I think Nash is going to be any different? Face it, he's overrated and the excuse making for him is tiresome.
No one said Kovalchuk was better then Nash or vice versa, Nash has two 40 goal years and aside from his rookie year finished under 30 only once (27), 6 years ago. Besides its not like Kovalchuk never had anyone to play with, his first 50 goal year Marc Savard had 97 points! Name me someone Nash has played with anywhere close to comparable. Derrick Brassard was his primary Center this year

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06-11-2012, 01:33 AM
  #49
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Rick Nash is such a likable player-- it's easy to get caught up in the hype of a potential trade.


But if we think with our brains, trading JVR for Nash would be stupid. Let's keep the cap space to fill a real hole, and just watch as JVR breaks out. Chances are he will be a 60+ point player in the very near future. That's good enough for me-- we already have our franchise forward.

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06-11-2012, 01:35 AM
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Rick Nash is such a likable player-- it's easy to get caught up in the hype of a potential trade.


But if we think with our brains, trading JVR for Nash would be stupid. Let's keep the cap space to fill a real hole, and just watch as JVR breaks out. Chances are he will be a 60+ point player in the very near future. That's good enough for me-- we already have our franchise forward.
Who are you filling the hole with? If Suter doesn't come here who is your #1 defensemen you are getting? How are you getting him and how much does he cost. Next year we have 15 million coming off the books anyway.

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