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Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation - Off Season 2012-13 (Part VIII)

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06-14-2012, 02:16 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Stej View Post
As for the UFA thing, I think Winnipeg will be a polarizing place for players. Some will love it and some will hate it. That is better than being a middle-of-the-pack franchise in all respects.
This is probaly it. Players wanting a good time outside the rink with nice weather and a big city to go out will probably not love Winnipeg that much. Players who don't care about playing in the nicest place in the league and don't need a fancy city because they love a pure hockey town where everyone only taks about them and their team will love it in Winnipeg.

Well I never been to Winnipeg But that's how I'd think about it. Personally I wouldn't be sure what I'd want more. Guess it would pretty much depend on my wife/family.

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06-14-2012, 02:17 PM
  #102
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There was a rumor recently that we are one of the seven evil teams to trade with Vancouver for Schneider or Luongo.

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Winnipeg Jets:

Sexy NHL players – Evander Kane, Blake Wheeler

Sexy prospects – Paul Postma, Mark Scheifele, Ivan Telegin

2012 draft picks, first two rounds: #9, #39

The skinny: Recent rumour has it that Ondrej Pavelec is being pursued by a KHL club. Current knowledge of the team says that the Jets were a good possession team last season, but got below average goaltending, meaning they might want an upgrade.

The new management group in Winnipeg didn’t really do anything last season, giving themselves a full year to analyze the team and their needs, and maybe “goaltending” factors in there. Pavelec probably isn’t going to be a star in the NHL anytime soon.

Probably more of a Schneider location than a Luongo location, but Winnipeg has a few fun pieces to look at, such as local kid slash high-scoring winger Evander Kane.
However I would not get rid of Wheels, Postma, Scheifele or Telegin. I haven't been totally sold on Kane liking it in Winnipeg. Didn't like this guy saying Pavelec isnt going to be a star in the NHL anytime soon.

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06-14-2012, 02:18 PM
  #103
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While i agree that trade would be a overpayment i dont think we would be giving up the best player. IMO Schenn is the best player
How the heck is Schenn the best player in the deal? What has he done to warrant being considered a better player than Enstrom?

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I'm not convinced other teams value Enstrom as much as we might/do on these boards.

Enstrom (smallish puck mover, year away from UFA) + Burmi (inconsistent young player, with lots of potential) might be seen as not enough value for Schenn (recognized blue-chip prospect, grit and scoring) + Simmonds (gritty player who scored 28 gs). Both schenn and simmonds had good playoffs.

The difference though between #9 and #20 is potentially huge, I admit, and likely too much. Perhaps Philly needs to throw in a later pick.
If some people here overvalue Enstrom, there are more here who undervalue him IMO.

As for Schenn and Burmistrov, how is Burmistrov an inconsistent young player with potential, while Schenn is a recognized blue chip prospect with grit and scoring?

These guys are the same age. Schenn was drafted the year BEFORE Burmistrov. In their draft years Schenn had a PPG of 1.26 and Burmistrov had a PPG of 1.05. Burmistrov also moved across the world and lived with strangers and played with players who didn't speak his native language.

My point is, how do we know how Burmistrov would be viewed right now if he went back for 2 more junior seasons like Schenn did? And got to play in 2 more World Juniors like Schenn did?

It seems like guys like Schenn get put on a pedestal here on HF because they go back to junior and put up big numbers as 18 or 19 year olds, but a guy like Burmistrov is now just an inconsistent young player because he was actually thrown into the NHL?

I'm not saying that Schenn may not be the better player over Burmistrov. If he builds on the brief playoff run he could have a good year next year. But to just assume he's better based on either 0 evidence, or evidence that isn't really relevant because the guys took 2 different paths is pretty sketchy at best.

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06-14-2012, 02:24 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
Not sure we want a Burns/Enstrom comparison. I'm not sure many would prefer Toby over Burns.

Toby had an off year offensively, but he's not a 'hitting' dman (24) or 'shot blocking' (38) one either. So if he isn't putting up good pts offensively, with a strong +/-, he may have 'limited' value to other teams, imo.

Which may mean, all the more reason to keep him. if moving him means you don't receive his value.
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I know you weren't comparing them directly, my thought is Burns would likely command more in a trade due to his size, being more physical then toby, and having very good skill too.

I think Burns' overall value is greater, so toby's return would likely be less. Just my opinion. Come playoff time, I think far more teams would rather have Burns than toby.
Were you respnding to yourself Bob E?

I'm not saying that they have to be exactly similar in value. But they are close. Burns has the edge in physicality, but Enstrom put up more points than Burns did when he was traded.

Maybe not the exact same return, but it's the closest comparable at this point.

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06-14-2012, 02:33 PM
  #105
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Schenn's 9 pts (3g, 6a) in 11 playoff games is really what I'm basing my like for Schenn.

That's a 22g, 45a, 67pt clip - over a 82 gm season. Though that may be a bit inflated based on MAF poor play. Also liked his willingness to get into crosby's kitchen at the end of the season and playoffs.

I just value schenn's style of play higher than Burmi. Can Burmi become a solid NHL'er, sure. I just think schenn's style isn't as common - a guy who always finishes checks, physically competes every shift, with skill - and therefore more valuable.

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06-14-2012, 02:39 PM
  #106
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Were you respnding to yourself Bob E?
Yikes, I guess I am. Haha.

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06-14-2012, 02:42 PM
  #107
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There was a rumor recently that we are one of the seven evil teams to trade with Vancouver for Schneider or Luongo.



However I would not get rid of Wheels, Postma, Scheifele or Telegin. I haven't been totally sold on Kane liking it in Winnipeg. Didn't like this guy saying Pavelec isnt going to be a star in the NHL anytime soon.
Sorry, I don't know where you got that tripe, but we certainly did NOT get below average goaltending, and we were NOT a good puck possession team, especially in our own zone. Those 2 comments right there destroy this 'articles' credibility.

If the Jets org touched any deal for Luongo with a 10 foot pole that didn't also fetch us an Edler or a real piece that would justify picking up that turd and his contract I would be extremely worried about the future of the Winnipeg Jets and that is not at all an exaggeration.

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06-14-2012, 02:48 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
Sorry, I don't know where you got that tripe, but we certainly did NOT get below average goaltending, and we were NOT a good puck possession team, especially in our own zone. Those 2 comments right there destroy this 'articles' credibility.

If the Jets org touched any deal for Luongo with a 10 foot pole that didn't also fetch us an Edler or a real piece that would justify picking up that turd and his contract I would be extremely worried about the future of the Winnipeg Jets and that is not at all an exaggeration.
Heh, well it was on Vancouver providence website. However I still think Luongo is a fairly decent goaltender. His contract sucks but who knows with the new CBA.


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06-14-2012, 02:49 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
Schenn's 9 pts (3g, 6a) in 11 playoff games is really what I'm basing my like for Schenn.

That's a 22g, 45a, 67pt clip - over a 82 gm season. Though that may be a bit inflated based on MAF poor play. Also liked his willingness to get into crosby's kitchen at the end of the season and playoffs.

I just value schenn's style of play higher than Burmi. Can Burmi become a solid NHL'er, sure. I just think schenn's style isn't as common - a guy who always finishes checks, physically competes every shift, with skill - and therefore more valuable.
I can appreciate "prefering" someone in Schenn's style over Burmi's. I could see myself preferring it as well.

I just don't get how Schenn gets to live off of junior, the World Juniors, a very short body of work in this years playoffs, and get's to remain being a can't miss blue chip prospect, while Burmistrov, who was drafted a year after Schenn and who was rushed to the NHL and therefore didn't get the chance to put up the great junior numbers, or get to lead his Junior team 2 more times in the World Juniors, is somehow relegated to an inconsistent young guy with potential.

But it's not you Bob E, I think it's prevalent on HF.

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06-14-2012, 02:50 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
Sorry, I don't know where you got that tripe, but we certainly did NOT get below average goaltending, and we were NOT a good puck possession team, especially in our own zone. Those 2 comments right there destroy this 'articles' credibility.

If the Jets org touched any deal for Luongo with a 10 foot pole that didn't also fetch us an Edler or a real piece that would justify picking up that turd and his contract I would be extremely worried about the future of the Winnipeg Jets and that is not at all an exaggeration.
While I agree with this entire statement, I do not agree that Luongo is a turd.

Sorry. Felt the need to say that.

I don't think we should trade for him though, even if Edler was also coming. Vancouver has exactly no pieces that I want on this team. Except maybe Hamhuis.

I know Schneider is a good goalie, but I think once people really start scouting him and player start playing him more...he's gonna get lit up. Not sure I want any part of that.

I'm perfectly happy with Pavs.

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06-14-2012, 02:54 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
I can appreciate "prefering" someone in Schenn's style over Burmi's. I could see myself preferring it as well.

I just don't get how Schenn gets to live off of junior, the World Juniors, a very short body of work in this years playoffs, and get's to remain being a can't miss blue chip prospect, while Burmistrov, who was drafted a year after Schenn and who was rushed to the NHL and therefore didn't get the chance to put up the great junior numbers, or get to lead his Junior team 2 more times in the World Juniors, is somehow relegated to an inconsistent young guy with potential.

But it's not you Bob E, I think it's prevalent on HF.
Sooner or later, Burmi is going to be ****ing wicked. I'd rather that be in a Jets uniform.

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06-14-2012, 03:00 PM
  #112
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Heh, it was on vancouver providence website.
And for "Sexy NHL players" they have:

Andrew Shaw, Marcus Kruger, Viktor Stalberg
Nikita Nikitin, Ryan Johansen
Sam Gagner, Jordan Eberle, Linus Omark, Magnus Paajarvi
Marcel Goc, Sean Bergenheim, Erik Gudbranson, Dmitry Kulikov
Teddy Purcell, Victor Hedman, Brett Connolly
Carl Gunnarsson, Clarke MacArthur, Jake Gardiner
Evander Kane, Blake Wheeler

This was posted by a blog group called "The Legion of Blog".

Here is a gem from this blog:

"Seven logical trading partners; teams with the space who need a goalie."

So it's made up from some bloggers who don't know enough about the Jets or Pavelec, read an article or saw the Hotstove that Pavelec was given an offer from the KHL, and decided to create an article of pure speculation and fantasy and include the Jets as a team in need of goaltending.

This has no more credibility than any random poster on this site making a trade proposal on the trade forum. At least "sometimes" over there, the poster takes the other teams needs into account.

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06-14-2012, 03:05 PM
  #113
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Sooner or later, Burmi is going to be ****ing wicked. I'd rather that be in a Jets uniform.
Me too.

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06-14-2012, 03:08 PM
  #114
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Does a deal like this work?

To Winnipeg:

Schenn
Simmonds
1st rd pick 2012 (20th)

To Flyers:

Enstrom
Burmistrov
1st rd pick 2012 (9th)
Take out the picks and I think you are pretty close here with value. You've addressed the Jets #1 need which is size and battle level. I know many here are loathe to trade Enstrom but my belief is that a player that small is probably a better fit on a team with much greater overall team size. I'd also prefer Schenn to Burmistrov going forward.

Have PS241 visit Chevy at the lake and get this thing done ASAP please.

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06-14-2012, 03:11 PM
  #115
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I'm a Pavs supporter all the way. I just think the backup needed to play more games. I wouldn't mind upgrading our backup to someone like Clemmensen though.

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06-14-2012, 03:15 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
While I agree with this entire statement, I do not agree that Luongo is a turd.

Sorry. Felt the need to say that.

I don't think we should trade for him though, even if Edler was also coming. Vancouver has exactly no pieces that I want on this team. Except maybe Hamhuis.

I know Schneider is a good goalie, but I think once people really start scouting him and player start playing him more...he's gonna get lit up. Not sure I want any part of that.

I'm perfectly happy with Pavs.
That's cool. I have a bit of an irrational hate for all things Canucks, and the fact that their damned fans chant that incessant LOOOOUUUUUU even when he just freezes the puck pisses me off to no end

I think he is obscenely overpaid however and still has not proven he can play at an elite level when it really matters. He'd be great for a team just trying to make the playoffs, like a Columbus.

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06-14-2012, 03:18 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
I think it's WAY too early to say whether Schenn or Burmistrov are the best player in that deal.

Everyone knows Burmi's history and I think we need to see him this season before we can adjust what he might become. Schenn came along in a very sheltered environment. He looks like a keeper but it is still too early to guess what will happen for him.

Schenn could have a major softmore slump, Burmi could add 15 pounds of muscle and start taking the puck to the net and things could be extremely different next year. That is the reality of very young players.

I will say I cringe thinking about giving up on Burmistrov right now though. You can see what he might become and if that happens we will look like fools if we give him away.
I hope your right Jet, I dunno just my opinion tho but if I was given the choice between Burmistrov or Schenn I'd take him over Burmi

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06-14-2012, 03:18 PM
  #118
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Take out the picks and I think you are pretty close here with value. You've addressed the Jets #1 need which is size and battle level. I know many here are loathe to trade Enstrom but my belief is that a player that small is probably a better fit on a team with much greater overall team size. I'd also prefer Schenn to Burmistrov going forward.

Have PS241 visit Chevy at the lake and get this thing done ASAP please.
I know you are really a fan of the need to get bigger Gump, but I think we are going to see some changes again coming in our game. There will be new rules in order to protect players and I honestly think the NHL will again push towards a more European style, faster, more skilled and less physical.

I think molding a team to be physical at this point could be a big mistake. I would like to see where the league is headed next year or two before really committing to something like that.

As someone close to the concussion story, I can tell you it's only going to get more critical for the NHL to eliminate plays that cause concussions. The data and new information coming out about head injuries is very dire indeed and if I was the NFL especially I would be extremely worried.

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06-14-2012, 03:34 PM
  #119
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I know you are really a fan of the need to get bigger Gump, but I think we are going to see some changes again coming in our game. There will be new rules in order to protect players and I honestly think the NHL will again push towards a more European style, faster, more skilled and less physical.

I think molding a team to be physical at this point could be a big mistake. I would like to see where the league is headed next year or two before really committing to something like that.

As someone close to the concussion story, I can tell you it's only going to get more critical for the NHL to eliminate plays that cause concussions. The data and new information coming out about head injuries is very dire indeed and if I was the NFL especially I would be extremely worried.
I completely disagree. The past two consecutive cup winners have been gigantic teams that pay very close attention to defensive detail, to tracking distance and angles.

Head injuries have little to do with player size but rather have more to do with player disrespect of other players - cheap shots, exclusive of size. While your belief may be that the NHL is headed toward a system that rewards a faster and more European style of play, the current reality of the NHL is one of huge team size, and especially relative to the Jets. One reason the Jets may have fared so poorly in back-to-back games and on the road is probably due an overall physical inequity versus their opponents. The Jets themselves can see this; I'm betting in fact that is the reason why the GM has publicly stated he wants the team to get bigger. They will also soon graduate to the Western conference where their opponents will be markedly bigger.

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06-14-2012, 03:44 PM
  #120
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Further, on Hockey Central of late they've frequently mentioned how all of the NHL team pro scouts and management tell them in confidence that teams won't even consider prospects and players now that are under 6 feet tall. Team size is a vital component now and is becoming even more important in fact.

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06-14-2012, 03:59 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
I know you are really a fan of the need to get bigger Gump, but I think we are going to see some changes again coming in our game. There will be new rules in order to protect players and I honestly think the NHL will again push towards a more European style, faster, more skilled and less physical.

I think molding a team to be physical at this point could be a big mistake. I would like to see where the league is headed next year or two before really committing to something like that.

As someone close to the concussion story, I can tell you it's only going to get more critical for the NHL to eliminate plays that cause concussions. The data and new information coming out about head injuries is very dire indeed and if I was the NFL especially I would be extremely worried.
With a smaller ice surface than in europe, physical contact will happen more often. Players who shy away from it, regardless of their size, won't be as desirable as players who initiate contact.

I might take a smaller guy who competes over a bigger guy that doesn't. Though I'd worry about the smaller guy wearing down over time.

I don't think the NHL wants to remove physical play, just dirty or unsafe play. A bigger player can usually withstand more physical play. Though there's always an Eric Lindros example too.

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06-14-2012, 04:03 PM
  #122
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Further, on Hockey Central of late they've frequently mentioned how all of the NHL team pro scouts and management tell them in confidence that teams won't even consider prospects and players now that are under 6 feet tall. Team size is a vital component now and is becoming even more important in fact.
Now with pro scouts in here, does that mean prospects/players from other organizations? because i have feeling that statement will be shot to **** in the first round of the draft.

I can understand where your coming from Gump, and i too like my team to be big, but like anything, you have to keep within reason, and not chase a single facet to a fault.

I don't want a team of midget-high-skill players, but i'm fine having 3-4 of them throughout my line up, as long as they've got big body's to play with.

Furthermore I won't disagree that size is definitely important in todays nhl, but i think Jet's correct, and i think it's far more likely we see a movement towards "softer" hockey then harder hockey.

I won't pretend to have data or answers on what causes concussions, but you can't quantify "lack of respect between players" so it's a reasoning i think best left alone.

You can quantify a growing size and speed of the player, so it's, in my mind, more likely that's the conclusion the powers that be will come to.

I do not necessarily think it's true, nor do i agree with it, but I will be far less surprised if the league decides this is what needs to be focused on to reduce concussions as opposed to "a lack of respect".

It's too hard to create a way to identify, quantify, and create a "remedy" to something as ambiguous as player respect levels.

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06-14-2012, 04:06 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Take out the picks and I think you are pretty close here with value. You've addressed the Jets #1 need which is size and battle level. I know many here are loathe to trade Enstrom but my belief is that a player that small is probably a better fit on a team with much greater overall team size. I'd also prefer Schenn to Burmistrov going forward.

Have PS241 visit Chevy at the lake and get this thing done ASAP please.
Ah, yes. Less, is more.

I threw the picks in to really sweeten the deal, but that may not be necessary.

if I was philly, I'd sit tight and see where their young team is in a year or so. Nash and/or Enstrom are good players, but giving up their young emerging players would be tough.

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06-14-2012, 04:12 PM
  #124
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I wouldn't do that.

I think Enstrom alone gets you a guy like Simmonds and the 20th. Maybe even more if you look at what Burns returned. A thread that had pretty favorable response had Enstrom and a 2nd for Simmonds and Read. I still think we could get more, but that's maybe just me.

That leaves Schenn for Burmistrov and the 9th. I am nowhere near giving up on Burmistrov, and even though I wouldn't mind Schenn, Burmistrov AND the 9th is huge overpayment for me.
Definitly agree with huff and duke. Though i love schenn and simmonds this is too much to give up now, and could potentially be WAY too much to give up in the future.

I definitly think enstrom gets you more then simmonds on his own, which leaves us way over paying for Schenn.

HF boards will value Schenn over Burmistrov at the moment, but I think actual hockey people (gm's etc) wouldn't when you consider burmi is actually a younger player then Schenn...

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06-14-2012, 04:13 PM
  #125
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I do not necessarily think it's true, nor do i agree with it, but I will be far less surprised if the league decides this is what needs to be focused on to reduce concussions as opposed to "a lack of respect".

It's too hard to create a way to identify, quantify, and create a "remedy" to something as ambiguous as player respect levels.
It is not hard at all; you are missing cause and effect. The cause of increased concussions is that the NHL have already opened up the game by removing the red line and by preventing obstruction, while the net result has been increased collateral damage from resultant collisions that occur at a higher rate of speed. The equipment needs to change to much softer padding. Some obstruction needs be allowed. The players should also be allowed to self-police while on the ice sans additional infractions, to in effect cause some to think twice before drilling a guy from behind.

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